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Help me understand jamming please...
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Captian FruitLoop
Captian FruitLoop Corporation
#1 - 2011-11-12 19:22:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Captian FruitLoop
I think I have a general understanding on how jamming works, but i just want to be sure I'm right.
Lets say I'm piloting a hurricane, Whose Ladar Strength is 16. An enemy uses a dampener that lowers the strength and I can no longer lock on to him. If I use use a ECCM - LADAR I, I can assume I should be able to continue as normal, as long as my ladar strength is raised high enough. Correct?

or for instance I'm using a mackinaw and a belt rat uses a jammer that jamms all types. Will I only have to boost up the magnetometic strength or the all of them?
Alara IonStorm
#2 - 2011-11-12 19:43:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Captian FruitLoop wrote:
I think I have a general understanding on how jamming works, but i just want to be sure I'm right.
Lets say I'm piloting a hurricane, Whose Ladar Strength is 16. An enemy uses a dampener that lowers the strength and I can no longer lock on to him. If I use use a ECCM - LADAR I, I can assume I should be able to continue as normal, as long as my ladar strength is raised high enough. Correct?

or for instance I'm using a mackinaw and a belt rat uses a jammer that jamms all types. Will I only have to boost up the magnetometic strength or the all of them?

ECCM Does not help with sensor Damps only ECM. A Sensor Booster that increases your lock range negates Damps.

ECM works like this.

Each ECM Module has a jam strength for all types. One suited to Gravimetrics has a much higher Strength then one to Ladar. For instance 4.5 Grav 1.5 Ladar and the rest. A Multispec has lower but equal Jam Strength of say 3 across the board. These numbers are max skill on a non bonused ship.

Now ECCM raises your Sensor Strength say on a Hurricane from 16 to 31.4.

How ECM works is say you have 4 Ladar Jammers with 4.5 Strength equaling 18 Jam Strength. Now because you have a higher Sensor Strength does not mean you will not get Jammed. What it means is there is a 18 in 31.4 chance you will get jam. That means there is a chance say a Ladar Jam Strength of 62.8 will miss but it is a very small, just like there is a small chance a Jam Strength of 4.5 will hit the Cane.

ECCM only protects against ECM, it also makes your ship harder to Scan.
BringerMC
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2011-11-12 21:14:31 UTC
Alara, ECM does not stack. Each jammer is individual. So say you have sensor strenght of 16 for Ladar and they have ECM to target Ladar and it has a strenght of 4 and they have 5 of them. In that case each Jammer has a 25% of Jamming. If the sensor strength was say 32 then each jammer would only have a 12.5% chance of jamming the target

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Alara IonStorm
#4 - 2011-11-12 21:37:15 UTC
BringerMC wrote:
Alara, ECM does not stack. Each jammer is individual. So say you have sensor strenght of 16 for Ladar and they have ECM to target Ladar and it has a strenght of 4 and they have 5 of them. In that case each Jammer has a 25% of Jamming. If the sensor strength was say 32 then each jammer would only have a 12.5% chance of jamming the target

I know, I did not say it did stack.

"say you have 4 Ladar Jammers with 4.5 Strength equaling 18 Jam Strength. Now because you have a higher Sensor Strength does not mean you will not get Jammed. What it means is there is a 18 in 31.4 chance you will get jam."

Whether or not you use them separately in that instance overall you do have an 18 in 31.4 chance. The difference as you stated is that since they are not stacked if you do get a lucky hit depending on which one in the order you use gets the hit you can use the remaining ones on other ships.

Probably should have mentioned that. =/
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#5 - 2011-11-12 22:50:40 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
BringerMC wrote:
Alara, ECM does not stack. Each jammer is individual. So say you have sensor strenght of 16 for Ladar and they have ECM to target Ladar and it has a strenght of 4 and they have 5 of them. In that case each Jammer has a 25% of Jamming. If the sensor strength was say 32 then each jammer would only have a 12.5% chance of jamming the target

I know, I did not say it did stack.

"say you have 4 Ladar Jammers with 4.5 Strength equaling 18 Jam Strength. Now because you have a higher Sensor Strength does not mean you will not get Jammed. What it means is there is a 18 in 31.4 chance you will get jam."

Whether or not you use them separately in that instance overall you do have an 18 in 31.4 chance. The difference as you stated is that since they are not stacked if you do get a lucky hit depending on which one in the order you use gets the hit you can use the remaining ones on other ships.

Probably should have mentioned that. =/


You're still stacking them. With the 4x4.5 strength jammers against 31.4 example, you will have a (1-4.5/31.4) chance of missing with each and a (1-4.5/31.3)^4 chance of missing with all of them. This gives you 1-(1-4.5/31.4)^4) chance of not missing the jam, which translates to 46.13% chance of jamming, instead of the 57.32% that you think it is.
Alara IonStorm
#6 - 2011-11-12 23:05:46 UTC
mxzf wrote:

You're still stacking them. With the 4x4.5 strength jammers against 31.4 example, you will have a (1-4.5/31.4) chance of missing with each and a (1-4.5/31.3)^4 chance of missing with all of them. This gives you 1-(1-4.5/31.4)^4) chance of not missing the jam, which translates to 46.13% chance of jamming, instead of the 57.32% that you think it is.

Roll I don't understand any of that, please translate it to Stupid for me.
Tamiya Sarossa
Resistance is Character Forming
#7 - 2011-11-12 23:18:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tamiya Sarossa
Essentially, you don't know how probability works - since if one jammer works, it's the same as if all jammers worked, you have to check the jam strengths individually - each jammer has a 4.5/31.4 chance of jamming a target with sensor strength 31.4. Therefore the chance of a jammer missing is 1-4.5/31.4 - one minus the odds of a jam occuring.

In order to NOT be jammed, ALL jammers must miss - so you multiply the odds of that happening together for all four jammers, resulting in (1-4.5/31.4)x(1-4.5/31.4)x(1-4.5/31.4)x(1-4.5/31.4), or (1-4.5/31.4)^4. This is the chance of all jammers missing, so your odds of being jammed are 1 minus this, which I'll trust mzfx to hae calculated as 46.13%
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#8 - 2011-11-12 23:42:51 UTC
Tamiya Sarossa wrote:
Essentially, you don't know how probability works - since if one jammer works, it's the same as if all jammers worked, you have to check the jam strengths individually - each jammer has a 4.5/31.4 chance of jamming a target with sensor strength 31.4. Therefore the chance of a jammer missing is 1-4.5/31.4 - one minus the odds of a jam occuring.

In order to NOT be jammed, ALL jammers must miss - so you multiply the odds of that happening together for all four jammers, resulting in (1-4.5/31.4)x(1-4.5/31.4)x(1-4.5/31.4)x(1-4.5/31.4), or (1-4.5/31.4)^4. This is the chance of all jammers missing, so your odds of being jammed are 1 minus this, which I'll trust mxzf to have calculated as 46.13%


This. The chance of jamming someone isn't the sum of the odds to jam, it's the odds of you not missing.

It's a subtle, but crucial, difference. But it makes complete sense when you know probability theory.
Alara IonStorm
#9 - 2011-11-13 00:49:53 UTC
Thanx.