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Changing the Titan Bridge
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suid0
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#41 - 2013-08-23 15:00:48 UTC  |  Edited by: suid0
Commander Ted wrote:
suid0 wrote:
Commander Ted wrote:
the entire enemy support fleet is dead except for one interdictor a titan could easily finish off with drones


*facepalm*

Nothing else is left alive except a heavy interdictor. The entire fleet to kill this titan is dead and must reship. The titan can easily reship.


Also DO YOU SERIOUSLY THINK KILLING ALL SUBCAPS ON GRID ISN'T AN OP ABILITY THAT SHOULDN'T BE NERFED?

Are you being a troll? Of course, PL has enough titans that they could clear the grid of carriers to.

Nothing OP about a ship that is capable of one shoting capitals and subcaps, CCP was so silly for nerfing that.


Seriously... what the **** are you on about? why is the entire fleet dead? how does a titan reship?

I never once said bring back AOE DD, I said they (titans) were still used up until the last nerf... which was the tracking nerf.

the entire enemy support fleet is dead except for one interdictor a titan could easily finish off with drones  - Commander Ted
Vizvig
Savage Blizzard
#42 - 2013-08-23 15:35:51 UTC
Sweet low-sec pvpers tears Pirate
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2013-08-23 17:23:58 UTC
Mr Doctor wrote:
I dont like the pull idea its too messy, just make the Titan (or blops) jump with the bridged ships. Instead of getting a "bridge to xxx" subcaps get a "jump with titan" then instead of firing the ships off the titan itself jumps and the ships that opted to jump get sucked off with it. Who doesn't like being sucked off?


There is a deep wisdom in this statement.

In addition, the ships should come through one at a time, rather than all at once. So if it is a case of a hotdrop in lowsec or against some 0-sec roamers they have a chance to evade immediate annihilation.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Sigras
Conglomo
#44 - 2013-08-23 17:34:29 UTC
suid0 wrote:
Never explained any such thing, that is entirely your opinion on them. And imo you're wrong.

luckily for Eve CCP and most of the rest of the community disagrees with you.

suid0 wrote:
They weren't overpowered, they were somewhat annoying to go up against sure, but they're titans, they should be.

At least before the last nerf they were usable and saw the field.

Before the tracking nerf, they were totally overpowered and you know it; in fact it was PL who said that supercarriers shouldnt be nerfed Titans should because they were completely overpowered when fielded in large numbers.

Being serious right now, can you come up with a counter for 2 groups of 10 titans 100 km from each other with pre nerf tracking? I mean other than more titans . . . See the problem is that a ship should never be the only counter to itself. If Titans counter everything else including Titans, then at a certain point titans are the only ships you should ever bring, and that's what was happening, titans were the only ships that ever meant anything on the battlefield, and that is just poor game design.

suid0 wrote:
Now you're crying that they don't see the field and bridging should be changed. Not because you want them on the field, but because you know if the titan jumped with the bridge less groups of people would hot drop.

This suggestion has nothing to do with actually putting titans on the field to fight, you just want to make your space safer and dramatically reduce the risk you get hot dropped.

Setting aside the fact that I dont hold any space per se` yes, I believe the force projection of large alliances needs to be nerfed. There are currently two mechanics that allow ships to affect a grid from outside the grid in complete safety

#1 is fleet boosting which is currently being changed
#2 is titan bridging which allows the titan to dump a huge number of ships on the field from complete safety.

This needs to be changed; if it's combat capabilities need to be upgraded to facilitate this, so be it . . . probably along the lines of returning some of its EHP not buffing its damage.

suid0 wrote:
Add to the fact eve is supposed to be about spaceships, fights and conflict, the titan bridge lets 2+ groups of people get to the same place to actually have a fight without spending an additional 1hr+ travelling. nerf the bridge and you remove a mode of transport that actually helps facilitate fleet fights.

By that logic, they should bring back gate highways . . . or better yet, just let any gate lead to any system, that should get people interacting RollRoll

What the titan bridge does successfully do is remove a strategic element from the game because all you need to do is bridge in your fleet, not worry about how youre going to get into system.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2013-08-23 17:41:29 UTC
Proposed new effect:

Whenever more than 2 titans are on the same grid, there is a small chance per second of a wormhole opening up and sucking the f*ckers into it, dumping them into wormhole space where they can slug it out together. half the scanning ships on grid also get sucked in.

As the number of titans increases, so does the chance.

Now try to titan-blob my fleet you b*stards! Or maybe we can discuss the price of an exit bookmark?

/MC

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#46 - 2013-08-23 20:40:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Commander Ted
suid0 wrote:


Seriously... what the **** are you on about? why is the entire fleet dead? how does a titan reship?

I never once said bring back AOE DD, I said they (titans) were still used up until the last nerf... which was the tracking nerf.


suid0 wrote:

So titans got hit with the nerf bat (repeatedly), they lost AOE DD, DD SubCaps, Tracking etc

You turned them into what they are today


That is YOU whinning about titans not having AOE DD.

I hope you are trolling because DD has been mentioned multiple times during our exchange, your stupidity is mind boggling.
Commander Ted wrote:

By being used on the field you mean using a DD, and being off grid and cloaked again in 30 seconds? Then after that we had groups of 30 of them sitting around instantly destroying whole fleets of subcaps with no counter other than more titans?




As for nerfing tracking I present video evidence of how stupid it was: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZDME4zZdMQ

Had those ships remained they would all have been destroyed, with no counter other than getting more titans.

As for subcap DD's, there was no justifiable use for that other than being a gigantic ****.
Going solo? LOL TITAN ONE SHOT.



Face it, the only time titans were ever used was when they were almost totally invulnerable and only used for anti-fun

Edit: reship thing I have no idea about why I typed that, I meant escape.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2013-08-24 02:02:40 UTC
I personally think that Captial ships across the board have a much too trivial logistics and force projection.

The current problem with using Titans is the threat of getting caught and then in very short order having tons of enemy capitals jump on you too.

Maybe there just needs to be limits on how far you can bridge/jump into non-friendly territory. Is that a possibility?

Should super capital ships be the end-all of Offense or Defense?
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#48 - 2013-08-24 06:51:04 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Here is a twist for you.

Titan fishing.

The previous ship, the one associated with a hot drop mechanic that lit the cyno itself by a target, would get a role as a target locator.

The cyno, under this use, would require a script to use, and could not function in this mode at all if a cloak was fitted.

The script would allow the ship to use the cyno field generator, and target a ship with it. Similar to the logic that a hictor can use a script and target their interdiction field on a vessel for the infinipoint.

Possible to limit this to only one class of ship, but that is tricky. Might be good for the Marauder perhaps.

Now, how it would work:
The special cyno ship gets on grid with the target. Instead of the usual warp scramble / point, the exact opposite effect is used.
The ship targeted is removed from the grid entirely, and jumped to the location of the Titan that pulled it in.

Could this be turned onto the attacker? OH YES.

Now, just imagine of this ship, that was just fished to the titan, was also equipped with one of these. (It was a bait ship)
That titan gets targeted, and pulled to the titan working with the original "bait" target.

Happy waiting fleet gets tasty lunch.

Roll credits.


So your saying that the ships that would use the sript would travel trough the cyno to the titan or did i miss something.

And yes would also be a good solution to move the titans out from the pos shilds to use the bridges. Not sure would it be a good solution to move them all to the field. I see more problems on that than solution. The idea was interesting but getting people to move titans to hostile space alone to get more combat... no not a good idea.

Nikks idea (if i understood it right) combined with the idea that titans would need to be outside pos shield when using bridge would be a much better solution.

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#49 - 2013-08-24 07:09:18 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Mag's wrote:
I quite like this idea. Although whether it gets implemented or not, is another matter.

+1

As far as mass limits are concerned, I believe they would only really affect smaller groups. Large entities would simply use more titans.


I don't see this being a disadvantage to smaller groups as smaller = less mass = less Titans required and if Rule #1 is applied of "Can't afford to lose it don't buy it\fly it" then it would possibly bring more Titans out for intriguing fights.

As for large groups...well more force projection should mean more risk and thus more mass = more Titans. Make people really think about there use and if they require that Titan or the tactical\psychological impact a Titan could have on the field.

As stated above, not a Titan Pilot, so these are just my general thoughts so don't flame me for my ignorance but feel free to educate me, I'm all for that.


Maximus you ignorant ****....

I think what Mag's is hinting at is it could make Titan blobs worse, not better. Big alliances with lots of titans will want to use them only with an overwhelming advantage, so you'll see the larger alliances/coalitions fielding capital/super capital blobs. A smaller alliance/coalition wont have that capability and simply wont use their titans...or more likely they might look for a coalition to join.

That was my first thought, could lead to bigger blobs of capitals and super capitals as well as sub-capital fleets vs. putting titans at risk.

But like you I am an ignorant **** when it comes to titans as I don't have one. P

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#50 - 2013-08-24 07:17:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Commander Ted wrote:
suid0 wrote:

So titans got hit with the nerf bat (repeatedly), they lost AOE DD, DD SubCaps, Tracking etc

You turned them into what they are today


That is YOU whinning about titans not having AOE DD.


Actually no, that is suid0 stating facts.

Did the titan lose the AOE DD? Yes.
Did the titan lose the ability to DD sub caps? Yes.
Were tracking titans nerfed heavily? Yes.

These are what we call "facts".

Now, whether you agree with them or not, that is opinion, but the quote you are relying on suid0 merely states facts.

And titans killing a dictor or hictor with drones? Really Commander Ted?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#51 - 2013-08-24 09:11:08 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Ive thrown this idea around in several different threads as a partial solution to some fleet logistics and force projection problems, but I think it's time that this idea had a thread of its own.

The Problem
Fleet logistics has become a trivial matter, and current bridge mechanics encourage aggressive play with little to no risk on the part of the Titan. This along with the massive birth rate of Titans has led to the age of the hotdrop, a no risk high reward strategy

The Solution
Reverse the titan bridge from a "push" to a "pull" EG a person usually clicks on a titan and ends up near the cyno. With this change the person would click on the cyno and end up near the titan.

This will accomplish a few things:
1. getting more titans into battle, into an area of danger
2. Assisting alliances more on defense and somewhat stunting their offensive capabilities.
3. Reducing the hotdrop issue or at least adding risk to it
4. Better Defenses and slightly weaker offense will allow more smaller alliances a place in 0.0

Thoughts?


And how would said titan get to this system to pull people in?

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2013-08-24 10:50:11 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Ive thrown this idea around in several different threads as a partial solution to some fleet logistics and force projection problems, but I think it's time that this idea had a thread of its own.

The Problem
Fleet logistics has become a trivial matter, and current bridge mechanics encourage aggressive play with little to no risk on the part of the Titan. This along with the massive birth rate of Titans has led to the age of the hotdrop, a no risk high reward strategy

The Solution
Reverse the titan bridge from a "push" to a "pull" EG a person usually clicks on a titan and ends up near the cyno. With this change the person would click on the cyno and end up near the titan.

This will accomplish a few things:
1. getting more titans into battle, into an area of danger
2. Assisting alliances more on defense and somewhat stunting their offensive capabilities.
3. Reducing the hotdrop issue or at least adding risk to it
4. Better Defenses and slightly weaker offense will allow more smaller alliances a place in 0.0

Thoughts?


And how would said titan get to this system to pull people in?


with a cynosural field generator, same way you get a dreadnought or carrier in.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#53 - 2013-08-25 05:16:37 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Ive thrown this idea around in several different threads as a partial solution to some fleet logistics and force projection problems, but I think it's time that this idea had a thread of its own.

The Problem
Fleet logistics has become a trivial matter, and current bridge mechanics encourage aggressive play with little to no risk on the part of the Titan. This along with the massive birth rate of Titans has led to the age of the hotdrop, a no risk high reward strategy

The Solution
Reverse the titan bridge from a "push" to a "pull" EG a person usually clicks on a titan and ends up near the cyno. With this change the person would click on the cyno and end up near the titan.

This will accomplish a few things:
1. getting more titans into battle, into an area of danger
2. Assisting alliances more on defense and somewhat stunting their offensive capabilities.
3. Reducing the hotdrop issue or at least adding risk to it
4. Better Defenses and slightly weaker offense will allow more smaller alliances a place in 0.0

Thoughts?


And how would said titan get to this system to pull people in?


with a cynosural field generator, same way you get a dreadnought or carrier in.


So...lets run through this...

A titan pilot is going to jump, alone, into a system so he can "pull" in a fleet that costs less than ship he is currently sitting in?

Why am I thinking that this wont happen except with multiple titans and multiple fleets so that the group risking the titans wont really be risking them?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Sigras
Conglomo
#54 - 2013-08-26 09:44:06 UTC
You're assuming that the only role of the Titan is bridging fleets around. By that logic Titans should never be deployed to the field.

In fact, this change would increase the value of the Titan on the actual field of battle because it could quickly bring in reinforcements.

Also you're being a bit short sighted. Think of the defensive benefits. You could have a Titan sitting in a cyno jammed system pulling in defensive forces; Maybe even expand the bridge to capital ships as a way to get cap ships into a cyno jammed system without dropping the cyno jammer.

In fact, this change doesnt make the Titan worse at anything it currently does except for being a fleet bridging force projecting completely safe faberge egg in a POS.
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#55 - 2013-08-26 10:02:07 UTC
Sigras wrote:
You're assuming that the only role of the Titan is bridging fleets around. By that logic Titans should never be deployed to the field.

In fact, this change would increase the value of the Titan on the actual field of battle because it could quickly bring in reinforcements.

Also you're being a bit short sighted. Think of the defensive benefits. You could have a Titan sitting in a cyno jammed system pulling in defensive forces; Maybe even expand the bridge to capital ships as a way to get cap ships into a cyno jammed system without dropping the cyno jammer.

In fact, this change doesnt make the Titan worse at anything it currently does except for being a fleet bridging force projecting completely safe faberge egg in a POS.


How do you ninja move a titan into a cyno jammed system if you don't mind me asking?

And how does the titan pull anything into a cyno jammed system when it's cyno jammed?

This idea just ain't working the way you are thinking it. The amount of pilots willing to risk they multi billion isk ships to do something like this can be counted with one hand so you realy need to think some other options to get more titans into the field.

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm
Infiltrator2112
Untitled Goose Corporation
#56 - 2013-08-26 10:31:26 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:

I like the reversal idea and I think it's quite ludicrous that Titans sit as "Bridging Monuments" in POS's. On the other hand they cost a shedload of materials, time and organisation so I can see why some don't field them but I like the idea but as to the impact I am not educated enough in Titans to comment.
.


Titans were frequently used in battle until CCP nerfed their tracking so hard, that their use is now reduced to being a mobile jumpbridge. While I agree that Titans blapping DICs were OP, the nerf was too hard and created the problem of Titans not moving out of their POSes in the first place.

Coming back to the topic, I have to agree with Sigras. It would not make Titans come out of their forcefields, it would make them hide even more.

The best way force Titans onto the battlefield? Make them usefull in battle again.
suid0
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#57 - 2013-08-26 10:48:29 UTC  |  Edited by: suid0
Commander Ted wrote:
suid0 wrote:


Seriously... what the **** are you on about? why is the entire fleet dead? how does a titan reship?

I never once said bring back AOE DD, I said they (titans) were still used up until the last nerf... which was the tracking nerf.


suid0 wrote:

So titans got hit with the nerf bat (repeatedly), they lost AOE DD, DD SubCaps, Tracking etc

You turned them into what they are today


That is YOU whinning about titans not having AOE DD.


No... that's me listing the nerfs. I never said all of them were unjustified, simply listed them... my point was after a long list of nerfs to the original titans, nerfing the bridge is obviously just the next thing on your list to you cry about and one of the few abilities the ship has left.

Commander Ted wrote:

I hope you are trolling because DD has been mentioned multiple times during our exchange, your stupidity is mind boggling.




Given your terrible quoting and misrepresentation of the points made you're clearly trolling .

the entire enemy support fleet is dead except for one interdictor a titan could easily finish off with drones  - Commander Ted
Dringy Tsero
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#58 - 2013-08-26 10:54:12 UTC
Why not just make the Titan jump after the bridge cycle..... A compulsory jump.

Bridge is up!.... People jump..... Then Titan HAS to follow. Could make it look cool aswell... Titan actually gets sucked through the bridge it made.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2013-08-26 10:55:36 UTC
I think the problem (from the point of view of people like me who would like more small fleet pvp in low/nullsec) is not that titans are not on the battlefield.

The titan clusterf*ck is a whole other issue that needs addressing. They're too expensive to use singly and too powerful when used in groups.

The issue at hand is that you can't ever engage in a small fight anywhere other than wormhole space without the ever-present danger that your fun, fair and invigorating fight will be hot-dropped by an overwhelming force that instantly ends everyone's evening of entertainment.

This is actually not doing anyone a favour, since it's just not fun. It's like someone calling the cops to break up a good party.

At least forcing the titan to be there before there can be a hot-drop means that the droppers are forced to make a calculated gamble (admittedly one that is stacked in their favour).

I feel the mechanics should be like this:

1. titan cyno's in
2. delay to recharge capacitor
3. titan creates the bridge
4. ships are allowed to bridge in at a rate of 100m Kg per minute (that's a battleship or 6 battlecruisers per minute)

If you want a faster accumulation rate, then you bring more titans.

Now what happens?

We're merrily fighting, a cyno goes up and a titan appears. We now have a choice. Cut our losses and run, or choose to escalate the fight (if we have access to the resources). Both sides now have choices to make and there is a much better chance of an entertaining fight escalating.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Sigras
Conglomo
#60 - 2013-08-27 18:45:59 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
Sigras wrote:
You're assuming that the only role of the Titan is bridging fleets around. By that logic Titans should never be deployed to the field.

In fact, this change would increase the value of the Titan on the actual field of battle because it could quickly bring in reinforcements.

Also you're being a bit short sighted. Think of the defensive benefits. You could have a Titan sitting in a cyno jammed system pulling in defensive forces; Maybe even expand the bridge to capital ships as a way to get cap ships into a cyno jammed system without dropping the cyno jammer.

In fact, this change doesnt make the Titan worse at anything it currently does except for being a fleet bridging force projecting completely safe faberge egg in a POS.


How do you ninja move a titan into a cyno jammed system if you don't mind me asking?

And how does the titan pull anything into a cyno jammed system when it's cyno jammed?

This idea just ain't working the way you are thinking it. The amount of pilots willing to risk they multi billion isk ships to do something like this can be counted with one hand so you realy need to think some other options to get more titans into the field.

you bring down the cyno jammer before the fight. and move the titan and any caps into position. Then youre ready, and I dont see how the system being cyno jammed would cause any problem for the titan pulling people in . . . the titan is in system A and the fleet is in system B, the fleet pops a cyno, the titan creates a bridge to the cyno and the fleet ends up in system A. There doesnt need to be a cyno in system A.

again, this change would actually increase their effectiveness on the battlefield. It would only decrease their effectiveness as a POS trophy that allows for risk free force projection.