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The state of emergent gameplay in EVE

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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-08-23 17:55:28 UTC
Hello dear friends!

Over the past several months one of the main issues that people have brought to the attention of CCP is a lack of interesting PvE content. PvE content, by nature, will always be boring. Why not bring a new type of agent to New Eden whose sole purpose is to bring emergent gameplay to the lost souls of Highsec? Look at the New Order of Highsec & the Ministry of Love, these wonderful examples of emergent gamplay. However, I don't feel there is enough emergent gameplay in highsec, look at all the afk miners and afk haulers. Ladies & Gentlemen (mostly the latter), I propose that CCP add Criminal Agents to highsec!

These agents sole reason for existing would be to bring emergent content directly to the player. No longer would you be forced to grind missions all day with out ever encountering another soul! How would this work? It's very simple. You speak to your Criminal Agent of choice & receive a mission to murder a player in a nearby system that has high security status. Should this be successful there will be a mission payout in the form of security status increase, faction increase and an isk payout that would scale with the targets EHP.

CCP; It is time you give the playerbase what it truly desires. Give us Criminal Agents.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-08-23 17:57:05 UTC
This highlights an endemic highsec problem. With all of this focus on AFK gameplay there isn't much of a reason for players to interact. We all know EVE PvE needs help, I think a step in the right direction would be integrating players into it and decreasing npcs.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133

Tyrendian Biohazard
The Bastards
Sedition.
#3 - 2013-08-23 17:57:47 UTC
In before:

Features & Ideas Discussion

Oops

Twitch streamer and EVE NT tournament broadcaster.

Kelvan Hemanseh
Hole Exploitation Inc.
#4 - 2013-08-23 17:58:54 UTC
Tyrendian Biohazard wrote:


no amount of forum mod c*ock gobbling will get you into isd
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#5 - 2013-08-23 18:06:26 UTC
Abusive as f...

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#6 - 2013-08-23 18:46:16 UTC
Thread has been moved to Features & Ideas Discussion.

ISD Tyrozan

Captain

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Cade Windstalker
#7 - 2013-08-23 19:22:29 UTC
Just because someone else's idea of fun is not your idea of fun does not mean there should be a mechanic specifically aimed at shitting all over that fun.

Maybe Goonswarm hasn't noticed but ganking players in high-sec is actually discouraged by game mechanics and has been since the start of Eve. It's not something that can't be done (obviously) but it's also not something the game mechanics reward, nor should they ever reward it. If you want to be paid to gank another player then find a third player willing to pay you. That's emergent gameplay, this is you not liking someone else's play-style.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-08-23 19:30:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
Cade Windstalker wrote:
ganking players in high-sec is actually discouraged by game mechanics and has been since the start of Eve.



This is actually false, but please continue. All discussion provoking thoughts are welcome here.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-08-23 20:19:37 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
ganking players in high-sec is actually discouraged by game mechanics and has been since the start of Eve.



This is actually false, but please continue. All discussion provoking thoughts are welcome here.


Just because it took them a couple of times to get concord right and eve was lawless does not mean that CCP did not attempt to discourage high sec ganking. CCP just had to redo some mechanics to combat the way players were using the system (caps in high sec etc) The whole carriers tanking concord thing WAS emergent game play and it was shut down because CCP didn't feel it was balanced. People taking wormholes and settling in them is emergent game play. I'm not sure what you are proposing is. I also think it would be hard to implement because there is no guarantee that the guy who you are supposed to kill is in the plex at any given time. Additionally, this seems like a mechanic that, if successful, makes ganging a mission runner easier than it needs to be. (people already do it right?) And the danger in making something like that that too easy is that it gets exploited, overused etc, and you wipe out a section of eve game play instead of creating a new one.

What if instead you created pirate agents in low sec that rewarded you for kills that you made within the surrounding group of systems. You could even promote solo pvp by not allowing for rewards to be distributed across fleets, and only the highest damage dealer gets the reward. Something like that might be a good way to incorporate pvp into missions.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.

La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-08-23 21:12:14 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
ganking players in high-sec is actually discouraged by game mechanics and has been since the start of Eve.



This is actually false, but please continue. All discussion provoking thoughts are welcome here.


Just because it took them a couple of times to get concord right and eve was lawless does not mean that CCP did not attempt to discourage high sec ganking. CCP just had to redo some mechanics to combat the way players were using the system (caps in high sec etc) The whole carriers tanking concord thing WAS emergent game play and it was shut down because CCP didn't feel it was balanced. People taking wormholes and settling in them is emergent game play. I'm not sure what you are proposing is. I also think it would be hard to implement because there is no guarantee that the guy who you are supposed to kill is in the plex at any given time. Additionally, this seems like a mechanic that, if successful, makes ganging a mission runner easier than it needs to be. (people already do it right?) And the danger in making something like that that too easy is that it gets exploited, overused etc, and you wipe out a section of eve game play instead of creating a new one.

What if instead you created pirate agents in low sec that rewarded you for kills that you made within the surrounding group of systems. You could even promote solo pvp by not allowing for rewards to be distributed across fleets, and only the highest damage dealer gets the reward. Something like that might be a good way to incorporate pvp into missions.


Why should highsec ganking be suppressed?

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133

Cade Windstalker
#11 - 2013-08-23 21:15:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
ganking players in high-sec is actually discouraged by game mechanics and has been since the start of Eve.



This is actually false, but please continue. All discussion provoking thoughts are welcome here.


If you prefer to nitpick then we could go with "There has been a fairly consistent trend from CCP toward discouraging high-sec ganking and making it less profitable. From the, at this point very old Concord rework to the mining ship changes (which gave miners a gank resistant ship), to the insurance changes so that you could no longer offset your ganks with insurance payouts.

Vassal Zeren wrote:

What if instead you created pirate agents in low sec that rewarded you for kills that you made within the surrounding group of systems. You could even promote solo pvp by not allowing for rewards to be distributed across fleets, and only the highest damage dealer gets the reward. Something like that might be a good way to incorporate pvp into missions.


I don't quite understand why people think PvP should be a profit generating activity, at least by default. You can, potentially, make money from it through a lot of effort on your part but this whole "encouraging destruction as a profit making activity" thing seems both abuseable and bad from a game mechanics standpoint as well as being against lore, at least in terms of NPCs paying isk for capsuleers to shoot each other for no reason.

La Nariz wrote:

Why should highsec ganking be suppressed?


No one here is suggesting it should go away, but it's not supposed to be a profitable activity by default; re: insurance changes.

From a gameplay and new player retention standpoint having a safer area for people where they don't have to look over their shoulder all the time and the risks and rewards are lower is good for the game. If you chuck a new player directly into the fire without warming them up first they're very likely to quit out-right. No new players means the game declines and is no longer profitable for CCP and the game dies.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#12 - 2013-08-23 21:36:18 UTC
Don't hate for this, but I liked the OP. I see potential in it, and I will explain why.

Ever play something called T.A.G.?
It was a game about hunting down a person whose name you were given. That person, in turn, had a name which they were hunting as well.

It basically amounted to a killing loop that got smaller at multiple points each time someone caught up with the person in front of them.

They took the name of that person's target, after killing them, and eventually won the game if they got the piece of paper with their own name on it.
(No shortcuts, you basically had to kill everyone else to do this)

Have a quest agent start this.
It can begin in multiple locations, even have range or limits to number of players involved.

No security hits would be flagged, Concord would not intervene. There was basically a war declaration across all players involved.
If you left high sec, you were disqualified, and the name you were hunting would be passed to the person who had been hunting you.

It is not needed to pod a target, as the loot dropped by their ship would contain a code to update your target to the next person in line. That said, you CAN pod the target if you like to, it simply won't make the reward any better or game any easier.
If you accept the next target, before podding the previous, the rights to kill them vanish instantly.

You never know who is hunting you, unless they tell you.
The person who WAS hunting you and got caught could be a sore loser, and tip you off, however, as to who just inherited your assignment.

Oh, yeah....

Have fun, and watch your back.

The winner gets a prize, possibly the top five get lesser prizes.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-08-23 22:11:44 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

La Nariz wrote:

Why should highsec ganking be suppressed?


No one here is suggesting it should go away, but it's not supposed to be a profitable activity by default; re: insurance changes.

From a gameplay and new player retention standpoint having a safer area for people where they don't have to look over their shoulder all the time and the risks and rewards are lower is good for the game. If you chuck a new player directly into the fire without warming them up first they're very likely to quit out-right. No new players means the game declines and is no longer profitable for CCP and the game dies.


Why is it not supposed to be a profitable activity?

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133

Cade Windstalker
#14 - 2013-08-23 22:50:29 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Don't hate for this, but I liked the OP. I see potential in it, and I will explain why.

Ever play something called T.A.G.?
It was a game about hunting down a person whose name you were given. That person, in turn, had a name which they were hunting as well.

It basically amounted to a killing loop that got smaller at multiple points each time someone caught up with the person in front of them.

They took the name of that person's target, after killing them, and eventually won the game if they got the piece of paper with their own name on it.
(No shortcuts, you basically had to kill everyone else to do this)

Have a quest agent start this.
It can begin in multiple locations, even have range or limits to number of players involved.

No security hits would be flagged, Concord would not intervene. There was basically a war declaration across all players involved.
If you left high sec, you were disqualified, and the name you were hunting would be passed to the person who had been hunting you.

It is not needed to pod a target, as the loot dropped by their ship would contain a code to update your target to the next person in line. That said, you CAN pod the target if you like to, it simply won't make the reward any better or game any easier.
If you accept the next target, before podding the previous, the rights to kill them vanish instantly.

You never know who is hunting you, unless they tell you.
The person who WAS hunting you and got caught could be a sore loser, and tip you off, however, as to who just inherited your assignment.

Oh, yeah....

Have fun, and watch your back.

The winner gets a prize, possibly the top five get lesser prizes.


This I have no issues with as long as it's something you sign up for. The OP is just talking about "the game should pay me for going and ganking some guy doing missions"

La Nariz wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:

La Nariz wrote:

Why should highsec ganking be suppressed?


No one here is suggesting it should go away, but it's not supposed to be a profitable activity by default; re: insurance changes.

From a gameplay and new player retention standpoint having a safer area for people where they don't have to look over their shoulder all the time and the risks and rewards are lower is good for the game. If you chuck a new player directly into the fire without warming them up first they're very likely to quit out-right. No new players means the game declines and is no longer profitable for CCP and the game dies.


Why is it not supposed to be a profitable activity?


Because if high-sec ganking is inherently profitable it takes away what safety there is from High Sec.

If you want to PvP and possibly turn a profit then go join Factional Warfare, I hear if you're good you can break even and even turn a profit blowing people up.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-08-24 01:07:56 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:


Because if high-sec ganking is inherently profitable it takes away what safety there is from High Sec.


Highsec ganking is inherently profitable and will be inherently profitable so long as people insist on fitting grotesquely overpriced **** to their mission ships, or hauling 10b isk in their freighters (or 1b isk in their paper thin T1 haulers), and so on and so forth.

I don't really see it as CCP's place to make highsec so perfectly safe that you can give no thought to what you're putting at risk whatsoever.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Cade Windstalker
#16 - 2013-08-24 01:37:10 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:


Because if high-sec ganking is inherently profitable it takes away what safety there is from High Sec.


Highsec ganking is inherently profitable and will be inherently profitable so long as people insist on fitting grotesquely overpriced **** to their mission ships, or hauling 10b isk in their freighters (or 1b isk in their paper thin T1 haulers), and so on and so forth.

I don't really see it as CCP's place to make highsec so perfectly safe that you can give no thought to what you're putting at risk whatsoever.


I don't either, and I specifically said I don't have any issue with suicide ganking. I take issue with the idea that it should be actively encouraged by CCP, rather than passively encouraged by hilariously over-priced mission fits.

That isn't inherently profitable, when I say "inherently profitable" I mean that you can turn a profit whether you're ganking someone's T2 fitted mission ship, T1 scanning frig, or that absolutely hilariously over-priced Officer fit.

If you want to use the profits from the 10 billion in Plex/officer-mods/T2 BPOs you ganked last night to go on a random ganking spree that's great, but that's going to be off-setting your losses, not turning a profit off of those ganks. The OP and the person I was responding to were both (as far as I can tell) talking about being paid directly or otherwise compensated for high-sec ganking.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#17 - 2013-08-24 01:44:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
An interesting wrinkle could be that opposing faction agents offer missions designed so that player A is assigned with protecting an objective, while player B is assigned to attack it. Make them multiparters so that the course of the mission chain changes depending on who wins and who loses. Basically an extension of dueling and limited engagements, but with faction standings, LP, and ISK thrown into it.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#18 - 2013-08-24 02:19:11 UTC
Don't change current mechanics for ganking. Add this as an opt-in where the bear gets 20% more mining yield/bounties/mission rewards for joining and the extra risk. I wonder how many would do it.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Travasty Space
Pilots of Epic
#19 - 2013-08-24 03:34:21 UTC
a Couple of these ideas are pretty awesome. The opt-in T.A.G. game sounds awesome and the opt-in to be a target for criminal agents for a bonus(You choose to get involved with the darker(er?) side of Eve. While your gains are increased due to the access to the black-market not everyone is so happy with your entry into their market...)
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#20 - 2013-08-24 03:55:09 UTC
there is probably more emergent gameplay in highsec than in nullsec lol.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

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