These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

The problem with removing local

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#121 - 2013-08-21 20:12:53 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
The fact that many pilots make mistakes, is hardly evidence of good design or planning. It reflects more an aspect of overconfidence and or carelessness.
There are many pilots who simply are too cautious, and don't get caught as a result.

I think this is where we differ in opinion . . . I believe that the super cautious should be rewarded for their effort and never get caught.

Now I also believe that it is currently too easy to be "super cautious" right now, so I think a change is in order, but not one that allows everyone no matter how cautious they are to be caught, and not one that relies on luck or cat like reflexes and speed to avoid a gank.

Again consider my earlier example:(please note I am NOT suggesting this as a good system)

You drop probes ...

No no, we don't disagree as much as you might think.
I want the super cautious types, to be able to shine here. They deserve recognition for making that extra effort to outplay their competition.
The problem is they don't need to outplay their competition. Anything beyond a certain point is flat out wasted.

If you go to the trouble of making a deep safe outside of scanning range to a gate, local cancels this by telling an intruder you are present in the system for free.
If you go to the trouble of using intel channels and being docked up before a hostile crosses that last gate to enter your system, local still tells the lazy pilot in time to get safe too.
You are not more safe than they are, since they got safe despite a lack of attention to an intel channel. The extra effort went unrecognized.
(And no, being further away from careless is no consolation, the point is being willing to go to the extra effort really is meaningless here)

I see your ideas, and while I initially considered a probe based solution, I reconsidered to use one involving mechanics more similar to cloaking itself.

I also had this system in place, which you may not have noticed, inside this thread regarding overview upgrades specific to sensors.
(Hunting and detecting cloaked vessels are not the same, and neither is really balanced if local gives the pilot's presence out for free)
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=112964&find=unread

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Sigras
Conglomo
#122 - 2013-08-22 06:47:17 UTC
One thing we have yet to discuss, the ease at which ships find anomalies.

Your scanning system is actually far more forgiving than mine would have been, but it's all negated by the fact that there is a nice free ship scanner that tells you what anoms are in system. That plus a little knowledge will have you on top of them in no time with no scanning active or otherwise required . . . In your proposal would that be removed? or what would happen?
suid0
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#123 - 2013-08-22 08:05:48 UTC
Sigras wrote:

The problem is that without local there would be literally no way for anyone to know that a cloaked ship was in the system. It would be a piece of cake for a cloaked ship to use its directional scanner to triangulate a ship location; use the wormhole probe trick to get a warp in, warp on top of him, decloak, cyno, bridge, bubble all before a battlecruiser sized ship can warp off


Pretty much every ship can warp instantly... unless you're stupid and don't align to anything

the entire enemy support fleet is dead except for one interdictor a titan could easily finish off with drones  - Commander Ted
Sigras
Conglomo
#124 - 2013-08-22 09:24:22 UTC
except for the fact that a cloaked ship can bump you leaving you less than 1 second response time to warp off

Also, having to be aligned eliminates blasters, autocannons, pulse lasers, HAMs and sentry drones from viability while ratting

Also it is impossible to do any hacking or archaeology sites, or gas mining while aligned . . . should we take those out of 0.0?
Turelus
Utassi Security
#125 - 2013-08-22 09:33:27 UTC
Fix PVE content so we don't have to do it in Pinata's or even better run it in a PVP viable ship, then we can talk about removing local.

Right now the removal of local gives the agressors all the benefits, most people campaigning for its removal will be roamers and most campaigning for it to remain are ratters.
Currently with a cloaked ship and local you know that the system is hostile and undocking in your pinata isn't a good idea. With the removal of local you would never know about cloaked hotdroppers (which is the most common kind now) in local.
No local works well in WH because you can't be hotdropped and the defender always has the homefield advantage.

Now overcoming these issues might just be the players mindset of less people more ISK, meaning if you could band together and make ISK with a PVP fleet should you be attacked you're able to fight. the loss of ISK/H (which for most players is their main income) from these sites would become very low.

Losing a ship to hotdrops wouldn't be bad with no local, but CCP need to make it viable to lose ships every day and still make profit from it, currently the anomalies where "more BS = harder" are not feasible for one person in a cheap T2 fit ship to make good ISK in. When that is changed, I will gladly risk making ISK without local.

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#126 - 2013-08-22 09:37:48 UTC
Maybe it should be the other way around?

Instead of removing the local and stop people from talking to each other in an mmo - God forbid - we should remove the people from sov space or sov space from the people.

If someone in a bomber lights a covert cyno in Syndicate, nobody gives a damn and nobody creates 500000 alt accounts to spam the General Discussion or Features and Ideas forums and complain about it, business as usuall.

But oh noes, someone not blue invades sov space, that belongs to not him/her sits in a cloaked boat, it's op, bad, remove local, make them suffer because we cannot carebear in peace in nullsec anymore, change the game to support alliance XYZ, nerf highsec, kill all miners and whatnot.

Listen to yourself.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Smelly PirateWhore
Perkone
Caldari State
#127 - 2013-08-22 10:54:27 UTC
all i see in this thread are carebears and sov owners whining about a move that would actually make their way of life in eve a little more risky, less effortless. And i would like to reiterate, a LITTLE more. Not much.

Imagine i am running a plex in nullsec:

I have a cloaky scout next door, someone jumps in, i know they're coming - i hide.


Or i don't have a cloaky scout, or i am brave enough to bide my time and think they may not come looking for me or that i may complete it before they can locate me. Now they've entered local, if i'm in an anomaly i know they can simply warp to me, but that takes time and i am already aligning because i have seen them enter local - i can warp off at any time and be safe.

Or perhaps i'm in a plex? I can finish the plex, they can't find me unless they scan me down, but i have d-scan, i will know if they drop probes. Oh look, there are probes! they are scanning for me, i will warp off and cloak up or hide etc...

Or perhaps i'm brave and think i may have enough time to finish before they find me and arrive, or perhaps they already have the plex scanned down. But it's ok, because i have d-scan, i can see them when they show up on a short range scan, or if they're cloaky i can see them when they land on the gate to the plex since it decloaks them...or i may even have an alt or friend cloaked up on gate keeping watch - i can warp out and get safe at any time

Or perhaps i've not been paying attention to d-scan, or i'm so close that i can possibly finish and escape in time, maybe there are multiple gates giving me even more time, i still have plenty of time because they still have to enter and exit warp through the gates - even when i see them show up on grid, they take enough time exiting warp that i have already aligned and warped off

Phew, that was close, even though i left it to the last second or didn't pay as much attention as i should, i was still able to safely escape. I will now warp to a safe spot, or simply make one, because i can bookmark any location in space and warp back to it.

Oh no! they have combat scanners out! better warp to any of hundreds of celestials and make as many bookmarks as i want in empty space and then simply bounce around them until my time runs down and i can log off safely


...Yeah, local is the only thing protecting carebears or others that don't wanna get caught in nullsec, if we remove that then no one will be safe ever again...
seany1212
M Y S T
#128 - 2013-08-22 12:25:21 UTC
Sigras wrote:
except for the fact that a cloaked ship can bump you leaving you less than 1 second response time to warp off

Also, having to be aligned eliminates blasters, autocannons, pulse lasers, HAMs and sentry drones from viability while ratting

Also it is impossible to do any hacking or archaeology sites, or gas mining while aligned . . . should we take those out of 0.0?


Your points are petty and invalid, or by your logic nothing in wormhole space would get done and it would be a barren desolate waste of systems compared to the living ecosystem it is.


Sigras wrote:
One thing we have yet to discuss, the ease at which ships find anomalies.

Your scanning system is actually far more forgiving than mine would have been, but it's all negated by the fact that there is a nice free ship scanner that tells you what anoms are in system. That plus a little knowledge will have you on top of them in no time with no scanning active or otherwise required . . . In your proposal would that be removed? or what would happen?


Ships don't find anomalies that much more 'with ease' than they used to, the 10 second on-board scan has just been replaced with a visible GUI that swipes across your display slowly revealing locations, easier to D-scan maybe but no more-so than anyone who was proficient with the solar system map screen...

As for 'on top of them in no time', taking the existing example of no local, wormhole space, you have fixed gates in null where any corp/alliance that is intelligent enough would stick scouts on in order to give realtime updates of who is coming and going in system. Obviously compared to wormholes where any hole can be spawned any where in system at any time (within the parameters of those opening statics/empire non-statics).

It's all down to players feeling they're 'entitled' to something they're not. Null was never meant to be secure space, it was space designed to PVP with impunity.
Rune Scorpio
Fixers Corporation
Pillars of Liberty
#129 - 2013-08-22 15:09:19 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
Heaven forbid you should put some effort in to making a intel network to track individuals who enter and exit your Sov to keep track of cloakies and their potential locations. Also, Risk vs. Reward. A single cloaked ship can't do much damage. Your intel network should see their gang coming. If they fit a cyno then you should PvP fit your ship to kill the cyno. Now can we stop having these whine threads about how lazy and uncreative y'all are about countering ships without your effortless perfect intel system?


You dont play eve do you? Try killing a cloaky t3 in 10 seconds. 10 seconds is all that is needed to get 20 blackops pounding you over the head with sticks.
Try gathering intel for 5ly to be sure it wont happen. Removing local is a massive load of fail without having a counter to cloakies or a fix to the risk free hotdrop ganks
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#130 - 2013-08-22 15:31:50 UTC
Rune Scorpio wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
Heaven forbid you should put some effort in to making a intel network to track individuals who enter and exit your Sov to keep track of cloakies and their potential locations. Also, Risk vs. Reward. A single cloaked ship can't do much damage. Your intel network should see their gang coming. If they fit a cyno then you should PvP fit your ship to kill the cyno. Now can we stop having these whine threads about how lazy and uncreative y'all are about countering ships without your effortless perfect intel system?


You dont play eve do you? Try killing a cloaky t3 in 10 seconds. 10 seconds is all that is needed to get 20 blackops pounding you over the head with sticks.
Try gathering intel for 5ly to be sure it wont happen. Removing local is a massive load of fail without having a counter to cloakies or a fix to the risk free hotdrop ganks

You have someone flying a half billion ISK ship, locked in place for a minute.

It doesn't matter if they get what you are flying, they are either sacrificing that ISK pinata to you and your buddies, or bringing even more bling bling boats for the BBQ.

If you are in null, and so unprepared that you have no friends in range to help you and still let this guy get on grid, and also are not equipped to escape.... you were unprepared.

It happens, learn from the mistake, and move on... seriously.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#131 - 2013-08-22 15:40:30 UTC
Sigras wrote:
One thing we have yet to discuss, the ease at which ships find anomalies.

Your scanning system is actually far more forgiving than mine would have been, but it's all negated by the fact that there is a nice free ship scanner that tells you what anoms are in system. That plus a little knowledge will have you on top of them in no time with no scanning active or otherwise required . . . In your proposal would that be removed? or what would happen?

The scanning system you refer to, that free ship scanner currently in place, definately dumbs down the scanning needs of the game.

"Here, we think you guys can't scan when you should, so we are giving this to everyone"

Since it affects both sides equally, it extends free intel into that aspect. I am not happy about dumbing down scanning like that.

It is, however, made redundant by the automated nature of my proposed d-scan tool. They also are not populating the overview with these items, unless I missed something and there is a hidden check box too.

Having the main PvE listening for active pings from the direction of a gate or other location, and you are warned if they scan for you directly.
Having an observation post pinging within range of the gate, and you have an active solution to alert with.
(Not to mention, if the first thing you notice in a system is being pinged by active sensors, you pretty much know everyone is alerted to your presence already. Any tactics not backed by brute force are devalued when you lose the surprise element)

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Infinite Force
#132 - 2013-08-22 16:10:32 UTC
Smelly PirateWhore wrote:
all i see in this thread are carebears and sov owners whining about a move that would actually make their way of life in eve a little more risky, less effortless. And i would like to reiterate, a LITTLE more. Not much.

Imagine i am running a plex in nullsec:

I have a cloaky scout next door, someone jumps in, i know they're coming - i hide.


Or i don't have a cloaky scout, or i am brave enough to bide my time and think they may not come looking for me or that i may complete it before they can locate me. Now they've entered local, if i'm in an anomaly i know they can simply warp to me, but that takes time and i am already aligning because i have seen them enter local - i can warp off at any time and be safe.

Or perhaps i'm in a plex? I can finish the plex, they can't find me unless they scan me down, but i have d-scan, i will know if they drop probes. Oh look, there are probes! they are scanning for me, i will warp off and cloak up or hide etc...

Or perhaps i'm brave and think i may have enough time to finish before they find me and arrive, or perhaps they already have the plex scanned down. But it's ok, because i have d-scan, i can see them when they show up on a short range scan, or if they're cloaky i can see them when they land on the gate to the plex since it decloaks them...or i may even have an alt or friend cloaked up on gate keeping watch - i can warp out and get safe at any time

Or perhaps i've not been paying attention to d-scan, or i'm so close that i can possibly finish and escape in time, maybe there are multiple gates giving me even more time, i still have plenty of time because they still have to enter and exit warp through the gates - even when i see them show up on grid, they take enough time exiting warp that i have already aligned and warped off

Phew, that was close, even though i left it to the last second or didn't pay as much attention as i should, i was still able to safely escape. I will now warp to a safe spot, or simply make one, because i can bookmark any location in space and warp back to it.

Oh no! they have combat scanners out! better warp to any of hundreds of celestials and make as many bookmarks as i want in empty space and then simply bounce around them until my time runs down and i can log off safely


...Yeah, local is the only thing protecting carebears or others that don't wanna get caught in nullsec, if we remove that then no one will be safe ever again...


QFT!

So .. Make Local like WH local .. null bears / null sov owners / null pvprs can quit whining and get moving on with the new system.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Sigras
Conglomo
#133 - 2013-08-22 18:10:06 UTC
seany1212 wrote:
Sigras wrote:
except for the fact that a cloaked ship can bump you leaving you less than 1 second response time to warp off

Also, having to be aligned eliminates blasters, autocannons, pulse lasers, HAMs and sentry drones from viability while ratting

Also it is impossible to do any hacking or archaeology sites, or gas mining while aligned . . . should we take those out of 0.0?


Your points are petty and invalid, or by your logic nothing in wormhole space would get done and it would be a barren desolate waste of systems compared to the living ecosystem it is.

Can we please stop comparing WH space where you dont ever have to worry about hot drops to 0.0 where hot drops happen more often than not?

in WH space a group of 4-6 is necessary to do some of the anomalies and can usually repel attackers, in 0.0 you could have 4-6 dozen and still die to the massive blob coming through a titan bridge.

seany1212 wrote:
Sigras wrote:
One thing we have yet to discuss, the ease at which ships find anomalies.

Your scanning system is actually far more forgiving than mine would have been, but it's all negated by the fact that there is a nice free ship scanner that tells you what anoms are in system. That plus a little knowledge will have you on top of them in no time with no scanning active or otherwise required . . . In your proposal would that be removed? or what would happen?


Ships don't find anomalies that much more 'with ease' than they used to, the 10 second on-board scan has just been replaced with a visible GUI that swipes across your display slowly revealing locations, easier to D-scan maybe but no more-so than anyone who was proficient with the solar system map screen...

As for 'on top of them in no time', taking the existing example of no local, wormhole space, you have fixed gates in null where any corp/alliance that is intelligent enough would stick scouts on in order to give realtime updates of who is coming and going in system. Obviously compared to wormholes where any hole can be spawned any where in system at any time (within the parameters of those opening statics/empire non-statics).

It's all down to players feeling they're 'entitled' to something they're not. Null was never meant to be secure space, it was space designed to PVP with impunity.

I never said it was "easier than it used to be" i just said that it was easy.

Again WH space is far more balanced because you dont have to worry that every cloaked ship has 248 of its closest friends one cyno away which is pretty much always the case in 0.0
Sigras
Conglomo
#134 - 2013-08-22 18:19:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigras
Smelly PirateWhore wrote:
all i see in this thread are carebears and sov owners whining about a move that would actually make their way of life in eve a little more risky, less effortless. And i would like to reiterate, a LITTLE more. Not much.

Imagine i am running a plex in nullsec:

I have a cloaky scout next door, someone jumps in, i know they're coming - i hide.


Or i don't have a cloaky scout, or i am brave enough to bide my time and think they may not come looking for me or that i may complete it before they can locate me. Now they've entered local, if i'm in an anomaly i know they can simply warp to me, but that takes time and i am already aligning because i have seen them enter local - i can warp off at any time and be safe.

Or perhaps i'm in a plex? I can finish the plex, they can't find me unless they scan me down, but i have d-scan, i will know if they drop probes. Oh look, there are probes! they are scanning for me, i will warp off and cloak up or hide etc...

Or perhaps i'm brave and think i may have enough time to finish before they find me and arrive, or perhaps they already have the plex scanned down. But it's ok, because i have d-scan, i can see them when they show up on a short range scan, or if they're cloaky i can see them when they land on the gate to the plex since it decloaks them...or i may even have an alt or friend cloaked up on gate keeping watch - i can warp out and get safe at any time

Or perhaps i've not been paying attention to d-scan, or i'm so close that i can possibly finish and escape in time, maybe there are multiple gates giving me even more time, i still have plenty of time because they still have to enter and exit warp through the gates - even when i see them show up on grid, they take enough time exiting warp that i have already aligned and warped off

Phew, that was close, even though i left it to the last second or didn't pay as much attention as i should, i was still able to safely escape. I will now warp to a safe spot, or simply make one, because i can bookmark any location in space and warp back to it.

Oh no! they have combat scanners out! better warp to any of hundreds of celestials and make as many bookmarks as i want in empty space and then simply bounce around them until my time runs down and i can log off safely

...Yeah, local is the only thing protecting carebears or others that don't wanna get caught in nullsec, if we remove that then no one will be safe ever again...

What you said in sarcasm is actually truth emphasis mine

lets go through another scenario . . . There is no local, you've been in system with a cloaky proteus for a little while now, and someone comes into the system to do some ratting. Completely safe under your cloak you warp from celestial to celestial triangulating their position with your d-scanner . . . you warp in on their anomaly undetected but theyre aligned to a station.

You warp to the station then back to the anomaly at range, theyre now headed straight at you, and you approach them . . . As soon as you get in decloak range you spam your MWD and they have 0.5 seconds to react from not knowing you were in system to being bumped, as soon as you bump them you mash the cyno and give the jump command. 2 seconds later a bubble goes up from the hictor that just cynoed in and theyre dead. because they missed the 0.5 second reaction time to warp off, which was really less than that because the server lags in getting you the information and then the server lags in receiving the information that you want to warp off.

Yeah that makes for a skillful game.

once again not to sound like a broken record but
1. Cyno bridging
2. Cloaking
3. No Local

Choose two
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#135 - 2013-08-22 18:27:07 UTC
Sigras wrote:
lets go through another scenario . . . There is no local, you've been in system with a cloaky proteus for a little while now, and someone comes into the system to do some ratting. Completely safe under your cloak you warp from celestial to celestial triangulating their position with your d-scanner . . . you warp in on their anomaly undetected but theyre aligned to a station.

You warp to the station then back to the anomaly at range, theyre now headed straight at you, and you approach them . . . As soon as you get in decloak range you spam your MWD and they have 0.5 seconds to react from not knowing you were in system to being bumped, as soon as you bump them you mash the cyno and give the jump command. 2 seconds later a bubble goes up from the hictor that just cynoed in and theyre dead. because they missed the 0.5 second reaction time to warp off, which was really less than that because the server lags in getting you the information and then the server lags in receiving the information that you want to warp off.

Yeah that makes for a skillful game.

once again not to sound like a broken record but
1. Cyno bridging
2. Cloaking
3. No Local

Choose two

How about I choose four?

1. Cyno bridging
2. Cloaking
3. No Local
4. Detection of cloaked vessels

3 being present makes 4 balanced.
4 being present makes 1 & 2 balanced.

Hot dropping ceases to exist for bridging use, so the only time it happens is if a capital is about to fall on your head.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Sigras
Conglomo
#136 - 2013-08-22 22:35:42 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Sigras wrote:
lets go through another scenario . . . There is no local, you've been in system with a cloaky proteus for a little while now, and someone comes into the system to do some ratting. Completely safe under your cloak you warp from celestial to celestial triangulating their position with your d-scanner . . . you warp in on their anomaly undetected but theyre aligned to a station.

You warp to the station then back to the anomaly at range, theyre now headed straight at you, and you approach them . . . As soon as you get in decloak range you spam your MWD and they have 0.5 seconds to react from not knowing you were in system to being bumped, as soon as you bump them you mash the cyno and give the jump command. 2 seconds later a bubble goes up from the hictor that just cynoed in and theyre dead. because they missed the 0.5 second reaction time to warp off, which was really less than that because the server lags in getting you the information and then the server lags in receiving the information that you want to warp off.

Yeah that makes for a skillful game.

once again not to sound like a broken record but
1. Cyno bridging
2. Cloaking
3. No Local

Choose two

How about I choose four?

1. Cyno bridging
2. Cloaking
3. No Local
4. Detection of cloaked vessels

3 being present makes 4 balanced.
4 being present makes 1 & 2 balanced.

Hot dropping ceases to exist for bridging use, so the only time it happens is if a capital is about to fall on your head.

So long as there is a way to definitively tell whether or not there is a person (cloaked or uncloaked) in your system, i'd be ok with that.

In fact, I dont even care about that, but as soon as they start looking for you, by activating their d-scanner or using their ship scanner to find anomalies, or using probes, the ratter should get to know about it.

This should not be a game of "how often do you click your d-scanner" or do you have flash-esque reflexes.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#137 - 2013-08-22 23:05:26 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Sigras wrote:
lets go through another scenario . . . There is no local, you've been in system with a cloaky proteus for a little while now, and someone comes into the system to do some ratting. Completely safe under your cloak you warp from celestial to celestial triangulating their position with your d-scanner . . . you warp in on their anomaly undetected but theyre aligned to a station.

You warp to the station then back to the anomaly at range, theyre now headed straight at you, and you approach them . . . As soon as you get in decloak range you spam your MWD and they have 0.5 seconds to react from not knowing you were in system to being bumped, as soon as you bump them you mash the cyno and give the jump command. 2 seconds later a bubble goes up from the hictor that just cynoed in and theyre dead. because they missed the 0.5 second reaction time to warp off, which was really less than that because the server lags in getting you the information and then the server lags in receiving the information that you want to warp off.

Yeah that makes for a skillful game.

once again not to sound like a broken record but
1. Cyno bridging
2. Cloaking
3. No Local

Choose two

How about I choose four?

1. Cyno bridging
2. Cloaking
3. No Local
4. Detection of cloaked vessels

3 being present makes 4 balanced.
4 being present makes 1 & 2 balanced.

Hot dropping ceases to exist for bridging use, so the only time it happens is if a capital is about to fall on your head.

So long as there is a way to definitively tell whether or not there is a person (cloaked or uncloaked) in your system, i'd be ok with that.

In fact, I dont even care about that, but as soon as they start looking for you, by activating their d-scanner or using their ship scanner to find anomalies, or using probes, the ratter should get to know about it.

This should not be a game of "how often do you click your d-scanner" or do you have flash-esque reflexes.

Absolutely, and my sensor upgrade thread emphasizes that.
It effectively makes d-scan an awful idea for cloaked vessels, leaving them to rely more on probes, which can be spotted easily.
(Using d-scan on a cloaked vessels shuts off the cloak, which is why the probes are safer for them)

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#138 - 2013-08-23 17:19:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Sigras wrote:
except for the fact that a cloaked ship can bump you leaving you less than 1 second response time to warp off

Also, having to be aligned eliminates blasters, autocannons, pulse lasers, HAMs and sentry drones from viability while ratting

Also it is impossible to do any hacking or archaeology sites, or gas mining while aligned . . . should we take those out of 0.0?


I have never seen a cloaked ship enter system, find the ratter, bump, him, have his buddies land on grid and kill the ratter.

I suppose it could happen, but given the current game mechanics if you are not in warp when a hostile enter systems or within a second thereafter you need to change how you are ratting.

Now if you are discussing an AFK cloaker who has come back to his keyboard and then managed to bump you...well, why were you in an expensive ship? Why are you ratting in that system? Where are your corp/alliance mates? If you lose a 200 million isk PvP fit ship while ratting (yes inefficiently) it seems not as bad as the 1.5 billion bling boat that is super efficient.

And if you do get killed by that AFK cloaker who came back to his keyboard, you learned something....when he is likely to be active. That is valuable. Now you know when not to rat, or when to try and bait him. PVP ships are not good ratting boats, if you get killed in one, you might be able to sucker the camper into attacking you again thinking your inefficient ratting is due to a PvP fit, but in reality you have a big tank and a cyno of your own fit...maybe even a dictor sitting next door.

And having to be aligned does not eliminate HAMs or sentries. You just have to be judicious in their use. You might have to have warp outs on either side of the site you are ratting. Same could work for short range guns too, but I'd test it first on Sisi, again grab some friends, set up some safes near a ratting spot and get to work, have your buddies come in and see how often you get caught.

As for sentries...leave them. Yes, the T2 ain't cheap...but they are a damn sight cheaper than your ship. So warp off. Leave the sentries.

This is not high sec. You are not running level 4s. You are in null and ratting where anyone not blue is a potential threat.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Sigras
Conglomo
#139 - 2013-08-23 19:05:20 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Sigras wrote:
except for the fact that a cloaked ship can bump you leaving you less than 1 second response time to warp off

Also, having to be aligned eliminates blasters, autocannons, pulse lasers, HAMs and sentry drones from viability while ratting

Also it is impossible to do any hacking or archaeology sites, or gas mining while aligned . . . should we take those out of 0.0?


I have never seen a cloaked ship enter system, find the ratter, bump, him, have his buddies land on grid and kill the ratter.

I suppose it could happen, but given the current game mechanics if you are not in warp when a hostile enter systems or within a second thereafter you need to change how you are ratting.

That's because local exists, this entire thread is about if local didnt exist.

But im sure that if local didnt exist, I would be alerted to the presence of a cloaked ship by my directional scann . . . oh wait Roll

Well at least I could use probe . . . oh . . . no that wont work either Roll

please at least read the OP before commenting.

Teckos Pech wrote:
And having to be aligned does not eliminate HAMs or sentries. You just have to be judicious in their use. You might have to have warp outs on either side of the site you are ratting. Same could work for short range guns too, but I'd test ti first on Sisi, again grap some friends, set up some safes near a ratting spot and get to work, have your buddies come in and see how often you get caught.

As for sentries...leave them. Yes, the T2 ain't cheap...but they are a damn sight cheaper than your ship. So warp off. Leave the sentries.

This is not high sec. You are not running level 4s. You are in null and ratting where anyone not blue is a potential threat.

These are the words of someone who has never done any ratting in 0.0 especially with the new AI that switches targets to your drones, moving away from your sentrys is a dismal idea.

You have never done any ratting in guristas space or sanshas space if you think short ranged weapons + staying aligned is an option.

The fact that people in 0.0 would be reduced to using terrible ranged fits and have a super high chance of getting ganked with no warning means that it isnt nearly worth the reward you get out there.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#140 - 2013-08-23 20:43:55 UTC
Sigras wrote:
These are the words of someone who has never done any ratting in 0.0 especially with the new AI that switches targets to your drones, moving away from your sentrys is a dismal idea.

You have never done any ratting in guristas space or sanshas space if you think short ranged weapons + staying aligned is an option.

The fact that people in 0.0 would be reduced to using terrible ranged fits and have a super high chance of getting ganked with no warning means that it isnt nearly worth the reward you get out there.

A few small observations may be in order.

Null is not intended as the best place for casual or solo play. If you need to compromise in order to meet the needs of the area, not getting enough to make it worth the effort is hardly surprising.

Casual and solo play is best enabled in high sec, where lesser safeguards can get you lesser rewards, but more reliably.

If you can get together for team play, then null should be able to offer you better options than high sec.

Null offers better rewards to compensate for the additional effort and compromises expected to be needed, not so it becomes the go-to cash cow area of the game to be farmed.

It really is supposed to be harder than high sec, and not just over long term averages.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...