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Sarum Family Heir recommends assault on Republic

Author
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#121 - 2013-08-21 17:14:45 UTC
Morwen Lagann wrote:


...Shakor has yet to be punished for any of his actions...

That is the difference.


The operative word in that sentence is yet. Even the Sanmatar is accountable to those whom he leads.

I do admit, however, that I don't understand why the Tribal Council has been so silent on this matter or, why there's been little public demand for answers and accountability.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#122 - 2013-08-21 17:17:12 UTC
Even if he wanted to seize it for the Empire, that doesn't matter. He did what he did on his own authority not on the Empire's. The same goes with the CVA. As far as I know the Empire hasn't claimed sovereignty for any of CVA's territories yet. That nothing is said and done about what CVA does doesn't imply tacit approval, it merely implies that there isn't disapproval.

Also, there are Holders in CVA.
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#123 - 2013-08-21 17:23:30 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Morwen Lagann wrote:


...Shakor has yet to be punished for any of his actions...

That is the difference.


The operative word in that sentence is yet. Even the Sanmatar is accountable to those whom he leads.

I do admit, however, that I don't understand why the Tribal Council has been so silent on this matter or, why there's been little public demand for answers and accountability.


Five years, Ana.

Five years.

Kador was punished within days.

Shakor may not have been punished yet, but when your government has made no move to do anything for five years despite multiple illegal invasions of sovereign space, it's pretty clear there's no intention - or ability - to do so.

I'm not sure which is a scarier thought.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque

Kazuma Ry
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#124 - 2013-08-21 17:32:02 UTC
As a Sarumite, I will support House Sarum in what ever direction they go,

but the idea thrown out there by a few that Empire breaking a treaty with and attacking the Caldari is just stupid. Just look at all the improvements in technology that the Khanid and Caldari have shown when there is a mutual treaty. The Kingdom and the Empire wouldn't throw away any advancements they have made just by attacking an ally. Also, it might work against the Empire, if King Khanid sided with the Caldari, if the Empire did do such a thing. Just my thoughts on this.

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2013-08-21 17:40:03 UTC
Morwen Lagann wrote:
Kador is not the Empire as a whole. He is the equivalent of a member state, and he acted alone when he invaded Solitude. He was punished as a result, when the Empire - or, specifically, the Empress - policed itself in this instance.

Beyond the electing not to escalate after the Federation showed up and tore Kador a new *******, she also held him quite accountable for his actions, and ensured that he would not be able to do what he did again by confiscating the remains of his naval forces after the incident.

Let's see here.
Morwen Lagann wrote:
after the incident.

This is the operative term. All of the negative consequences of the Kador invasion of Solitude occured after it failed - apart from the obvious negative consequence of Kador's invasion fleet getting their day utterly ruined by our navy, which of course happened during the attempt.

Consider, firstly, that the Heir's private fleet was, de jure, an illegal entity. Emperor Heideran forbade the Heirs to possess any standing military forces whatsoever. Neither Doriam nor Jamyl ever rescinded this proscription, meaning that merely by possessing the means to launch the invasion at all, the Kador family were breaking Imperial law - indeed, there are four Great Houses that still possess naval and planetary forces, in direct violation of an Imperial proclamation. The Empire did not think to even pay lip service to this decree - something that came from none other than the very mouth of one of their most universally respected and revered rulers - until someone had already flagrantly violated it. Even then, it was only mentioned in passing, as the confiscation of Uriam's fleet was done by means of a seperate Imperial decree.

Secondly, even were it legal for the Heirs to possess such military might, the fact that the attack on the Federation came as a complete surprise to everyone including the Empire at large suggests that the highest echelons of the Imperial government just hasn't got their **** together. If they have literally no idea that their Heirs - who are, allow me to remind you, the most powerful people in the Empire after the Empress - are plotting grand-scale actions with potentially ruinous diplomatic consequences until after they happen, something's up. Of course, one could say that the assault on Solitude was entirely random and that Uriam Kador is simply insane (which, come to think of it, is an explanation I'd quite readily accept without skepticism), but if the Empire allows insane people to sit on the Privy Council, let alone be in the running for Emperor, I'd say that's a very serious flaw in Imperial governance.

Essentially what I'm saying here is that the Empire didn't even know Kador was going to invade, which completely precluded being at a state of readiness sufficient to stop him. So maybe the attack didn't happen with the Empire's consent - that doesn't somehow absolve them of being grossly negligent, and to be honest, I think that's even more embarassing than having launched an honest, Empress-backed invasion of the Federation.

A further point - and this, I freely admit, is entirely conjecture on my part - the wording of the Empress' statement is somewhat suggestive.

Jamyl Sarum wrote:
I made a promise that I would respond in kind to actions affecting the wellbeing of our great and holy Empire, be they good or ill. The failure of Uriam's private military adventure has caused the Empire significant inconvenience at home and abroad. As such I will be imposing commensurate inconvenience upon him. All Kador-aligned military forces and assets will be turned over to the Ministry of War for reassignment, and Heir Uriam will in the future be expected and required to conduct himself in a manner which the Ministry of Internal Order deems acceptable.

Emphasis mine. I can't help but feel that Uriam Kador was not punished for launching an invasion of the Federation without the Empress' consent so much as he was punished for failing at it. The Empress didn't want to be associated with a military effort that ended in humiliating defeat.

Assume that Kador's invasion had succeeded in... uh... well, whatever it was that he was trying to do. We still have no idea what his intention was, so there's no way of knowing whether he intended to occupy Solitude, take slaves, forcibly spread the Amarrian religion, blow up something specific, blow up many things nonspecific or simply loot and pillage, but let's assume for a moment that he got whatever it was he wanted. Would the Empress have been so harsh on him then? I have my doubts.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Esna Pitoojee
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#126 - 2013-08-21 17:52:22 UTC
Considering that most capsuleers vary between only caring about which of the Big 4 pay them the best and just not caring at all, are you honestly surprised that the Empire is willing to accept the aid of a nominally friendly capsuleer group in controlling and governing a region that would otherwise be under the control of a neutral capsuleer group, outright disruptive capsuleer group, or Nation?

Remember here that no other entity which would otherwise hold control of Providence has ever signed any treaty, agreement, or such with the Empire; by controlling Providence in the Empire's name, CVA does not disrupt, attack, or hinder any entity which the Empire has signed a treaty. Should CVA turn on the Empire, I am quite sure they would lose any such recognition they have gained, falling then into the category of "most other capsuleer alliances who only care about themselves."

Kador, by contrast, was expected to understand his position in the structure of the Empire itself, part of which includes not starting any invasions with no prior notice.
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#127 - 2013-08-21 19:18:34 UTC
Kador's little adventure in Solitude had nothing to do with the Federation and everything to do with his Gallente lover.

Uriam being the sentimental sort I'm sure he would have gladly burned out the rest of his fleet to show her his level of seriousness.

Lover's quarrel, nothing to see.

Back on topic, I'll assume Khanid II has the 'swing' vote on the Privy Council regarding this new Reclaiming so let's see how it goes!

Sabik now, Sabik forever

Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#128 - 2013-08-21 19:23:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Aldrith Shutaq
The truth of the matter is that nobody seems to have any idea about the true motivations of the Kador invasion. Bickering about this topic has no point until that matter is brought to light.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu

Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#129 - 2013-08-21 20:13:01 UTC
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
The truth of the matter is that nobody seems to have any idea about the true motivations of the Kador invasion. Bickering about this topic has no point until that matter is brought to light.


And seeing as that'll happen when Heth announces his secret male Gallente lover and sets up as a go-go dancer...

You're welcome for that image, by the way.
Steffanie Saissore
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#130 - 2013-08-21 20:59:13 UTC
Repentence Tyrathlion wrote:


And seeing as that'll happen when Heth announces his secret male Gallente lover and sets up as a go-go dancer...

You're welcome for that image, by the way.


Somehow, that image doesn't surprise me...still want to purge it from my mind, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was a touch of truth to that...

We travel in the dark of the new moon,

A starry highway traced on the map of the sky

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#131 - 2013-08-21 21:15:36 UTC
Repentence Tyrathlion wrote:


And seeing as that'll happen when Heth announces his secret male Gallente lover and sets up as a go-go dancer...

You're welcome for that image, by the way.


Well you know what they say, when you've got no job and no skills there's always one asset you've got left to sell.

In fact I can imagine Heth's personal classified listing on the Fed GalNet dating sites:

Looking For Males

50 Year Old former forklift driver looking for young Gallente men. Hard Civire Bod. Enjoys delusional fantasizing, irrational thinking, and self-loathing. Prefers Gallente men who might enjoy a bit of physical wear and tear or don't mind me screaming, "And this is why the Federation must be destroyed!" During coitus.

Please do not respond if you work for the Black Eagles or are a citizen of the Caldari State.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#132 - 2013-08-22 09:31:16 UTC
I didn't pay this any attention when it was simply Sarum saber-rattling because that's what the Sarums do. Tash-Murkon joining in is a bit more interesting.

That the Empire might 'run out' of slave stock is a possibility but not one I hear frequently voiced. The Empress' actions were, I believe, designed to lower the available supplies so to incentivize technological development. I can't help but think she looking at what the Kingdom has accomplished with its much lower slave population.

A Reclaiming might be more effective now, but I wonder if a new wave of slaves might stall the Empire's progress.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Koratta Keng
Keng Mining and Mineral
#133 - 2013-08-22 18:36:05 UTC
Recent Developments suggest that leaders within the empire come to the situation with vastly different motivations and temperaments. Those among my particular circles in the Kingdom do not see this kind of war as beneficial. Among the negatives would be a significant hindrance to trade and industry across borders.
Hadi Shouna
Transfinite Exploration
#134 - 2013-08-22 18:47:11 UTC
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
A Reclaiming might be more effective now, but I wonder if a new wave of slaves might stall the Empire's progress.


It's not my place to speak of such things, but I've got to wonder what form this Reclaiming might take. Didn't Heideran start to see Reclaiming as more of a metaphor for religious conversions?
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#135 - 2013-08-22 18:54:05 UTC
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
A Reclaiming might be more effective now

What exactly gives you this impression? The Minmatar Republic are quite adamant that - come hell or high water - they will never be subject to Amarrian rulership again.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#136 - 2013-08-22 19:18:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Valerie Valate
It's funny when people mention how Uriam Kador is "one of the most powerful people in the Empire after the Empress", and is "acting insane", and that this is an indication of the Wrongness of the Imperial system, when....

A Gallente senator, one of the most powerful people in the Federation after the President, believed himself to be a teenage girl while under the influence of a Caldari-manufactured transcranial microcontroller. Whilst in the Senate chamber itself!

Demonstratable insane behaviour.

Hurr~

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#137 - 2013-08-22 19:44:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Hadi Shouna wrote:
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
A Reclaiming might be more effective now, but I wonder if a new wave of slaves might stall the Empire's progress.


It's not my place to speak of such things, but I've got to wonder what form this Reclaiming might take. Didn't Heideran start to see Reclaiming as more of a metaphor for religious conversions?


A few years of blooder debauchery and military japes in the Imperial Scenery, and centuries of Pax Amaria suddenly seem to vanish into thin air. Unless what we witness here is only the fruit of a deluded vocal minority.

Tash-Murkon, though ? Too much money ?
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#138 - 2013-08-22 20:18:26 UTC
Koratta Keng wrote:
Recent Developments suggest that leaders within the empire come to the situation with vastly different motivations and temperaments. Those among my particular circles in the Kingdom do not see this kind of war as beneficial. Among the negatives would be a significant hindrance to trade and industry across borders.


You do not speak for Khanid II.


Sabik now, Sabik forever

Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#139 - 2013-08-22 20:20:16 UTC
Interesting about that news report is the CONCORD 'delegation' trying to smooth things over.

Of course I'm sure the Imperials will be all too happy to listen to CONCORD with regards to the Republic, since they did their jobs so well in preventing, and severely punishing Republic aggression the last time they tried to invade.

Oh, wait....

Sabik now, Sabik forever

Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#140 - 2013-08-22 20:24:32 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:
You do not speak for Khanid II.

And you do even less, heretic.