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Recently, many ethnic Minmatar have claimed that the wave of retributive violence against them throu

Author
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#41 - 2013-08-21 22:41:42 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
Isis Dea wrote:
Recent issues where Matari inside the Federation are crying out for equal rights sparked the statement.

Where was this tolerance whose lack you decry in others, when millions of your own kin freed by a new and victorious Empress returned?

Those who came to the former Republic ​seeking succor​, that held their faith were treated like sick cattle, or worse.

We know our sins little sister, see you your own. ​
Isis Dea
Society of Adrift Hope
#42 - 2013-08-22 13:46:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Isis Dea
James Syagrius wrote:
Isis Dea wrote:
Recent issues where Matari inside the Federation are crying out for equal rights sparked the statement.

Where was this tolerance whose lack you decry in others, when millions of your own kin freed by a new and victorious Empress returned?

Those who came to the former Republic ​seeking succor​, that held their faith were treated like sick cattle, or worse.

We know our sins little sister, see you your own. ​


If you followed my first statement, which that was based off, you'd see I outlined our own sins very clearly.

Also, be careful what you label as free. Just because they have lives befitting a (lower) class society does not make them free. There are ideals one would label savage or barbaric within Matari are also considered their own nature. Vicious now, as by-product of inner-tribal warfare yet arguably mores because of the reclaiming.

Those ideals are removed within your society.

Furthermore, while some might be free, they spend their new lives observing their kin anything but free. The countless Matari who make up your slave population, that "serve" aboard your starships, all bring about a resounding fact that their race is anything but free.

As for the hope that things will change, imagine this: Will there ever be a Matari bishop? A Brutor able to hold the floor of the court of her highness with the respect of the court in his words?

Think about it.

More Character Customization :: Especially compared to what we had in 2003...

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#43 - 2013-08-22 14:31:04 UTC
They said as much about the Udorian. Now there's a Udorian heir.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Isis Dea
Society of Adrift Hope
#44 - 2013-08-22 14:33:44 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
They said as much about the Udorian. Now there's a Udorian heir.


You think there could ever be a Brutor heir?

More Character Customization :: Especially compared to what we had in 2003...

Hadi Shouna
Transfinite Exploration
#45 - 2013-08-22 18:41:51 UTC
My aunt Lida always says you've got to take the long view.

As far as a Brutor heir, I'd say that's up to the Brutor. The Tash-Murkons weren't simply awarded patents of nobility randomly, they're noble because they deserve it. But a good example of the future of Matari in the Empire is the Ammatar Mandate. Give them a few hundred years, and you'll start seeing a lot more of the sort of equality you're talking about.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#46 - 2013-08-22 19:50:35 UTC
Hadi Shouna wrote:
My aunt Lida always says you've got to take the long view.

As far as a Brutor heir, I'd say that's up to the Brutor. The Tash-Murkons weren't simply awarded patents of nobility randomly, they're noble because they deserve it. But a good example of the future of Matari in the Empire is the Ammatar Mandate. Give them a few hundred years, and you'll start seeing a lot more of the sort of equality you're talking about.


It mostly depends if Brutors start to look more like Udorians, or Ealurians eventually.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2013-08-22 19:58:23 UTC
Perhaps there are some Brutor who'd like to take their chances waiting for the Empire to humour them. I imagine there's a fair few who'd rather be somewhere other than the Empire. Both are valid desires.

What I object to is that they don't have a choice in the matter.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#48 - 2013-08-23 07:26:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Repentence Tyrathlion
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Perhaps there are some Brutor who'd like to take their chances waiting for the Empire to humour them. I imagine there's a fair few who'd rather be somewhere other than the Empire. Both are valid desires.

What I object to is that they don't have a choice in the matter.


COUGHMandateCOUGH.

I know that it's not a popular thing to remember, but there's actually a reasonable proportion of Minmatar in the Empire and associated bodies that are content where they are without being chained down. You think every freed slave automatically goes running back to the Republic?
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2013-08-24 09:15:39 UTC
Repentence Tyrathlion wrote:
but there's actually a reasonable proportion of Minmatar in the Empire and associated bodies that are content where they are without being chained down. You think every freed slave automatically goes running back to the Republic?

Read my post again. I never denied that.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#50 - 2013-08-24 11:05:57 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Repentence Tyrathlion wrote:
but there's actually a reasonable proportion of Minmatar in the Empire and associated bodies that are content where they are without being chained down. You think every freed slave automatically goes running back to the Republic?

Read my post again. I never denied that.


All right, try this one on for size: if the Empire were to release all its slaves, and even a quarter of those released returned to the Republic, it would result in the Republic's total collapse. I've stated in the past that mass release of slaves would be crippling to the Empire as well, but honestly I think it would benefit more.

The Republic's resources are stretched anyway. Last I heard, they were still relying on aid from the Federation. A sudden population increase of a third (from just that one quarter, mind you) would cause total chaos. More than that, and the Republic simply would not cope. I could actually see a mass exodus back to the Empire, because hey, we might be second class citizens there, but at least we get food and a roof over our heads.

The economics and logistics just don't add up. Simple as that.
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#51 - 2013-08-24 11:15:55 UTC
Someone's gotta say it...

...but our economy and all was just fine before, well... you know...

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"

Indira Harashani
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#52 - 2013-08-24 13:47:25 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
Someone's gotta say it...

...but our economy and all was just fine before, well... you know...

Before Shakor started funneling money and supplies intended for your people to fund his pet capital fleet?

Yes, we know. They're still finding little pieces of it on Mekhios to this day.

Lady Indira Harashani

Holder of the Kheryskova Archipelago, Kihtaled IV

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#53 - 2013-08-25 07:40:26 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
Someone's gotta say it...

...but our economy and all was just fine before, well... you know...

Before you got your wish and became free?

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#54 - 2013-08-25 11:59:36 UTC
Amarrians.

Selective Perception for over 1000 years!

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"

Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#55 - 2013-08-25 16:16:08 UTC
Indira Harashani wrote:

...Yes, we know. They're still finding little pieces of it on Mekhios to this day.


Just like we're still finding unmarked mass graves of slaughtered Minmatar and the artifacts of your occupation to this day?

A.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2013-08-25 20:05:57 UTC
Indira Harashani wrote:
Ava Starfire wrote:
Someone's gotta say it...

...but our economy and all was just fine before, well... you know...

Before Shakor started funneling money and supplies intended for your people to fund his pet capital fleet?

Yes, we know. They're still finding little pieces of it on Mekhios to this day.


Loathe as I am to defend people like Starfire, it's a matter of record that the economy of the Republic has been doing better under Shakor than it had been for the past several decades.

There were people in the Federation arguing that all those Minmatar immigrants who came here would tank our economy, too, but the Federation economy did just fine. I could see an influx of newly freed slaves being good for their economy. Especially the highly skilled sorts of slaves that the Empire would be opposed most to losing.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#57 - 2013-08-27 01:47:13 UTC
I would fully expect the groupthinking Minmatar to project this on the ethnic Gallente. Individuality comes first in the Federation. If some ass-hats need an excuse to single people out for their ethnicity, there's no solution in blaming everybody.

The Minmatar best get off this track lest their "leaders" find profit in this manner and that will ensure this problem will never end.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#58 - 2013-08-27 05:34:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Anabella Rella
Group-thinking Minmatar? Pilot, I believe you have us confused with a different group. I assure you that our opinions are as varied as any other society. Although we (mostly) speak and act as a unified people during times of national crisis, during normal times there's great difference of opinion between individuals, clans and Tribes.

Instead of living in a perpetual state of denial and victim blaming, I'd recommend actually investigating the allegations of discrimination rather than simply dismissing them out of hand. According to official census figures Matari make up a third of the Federation's population. That's a rather substantial segment of Gallentean society to treat so dismissively.

Even if Federal citizens such as yourself don't see any need for action I'm pretty certain that the politicians courting this huge block of voters will see things differently.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#59 - 2013-08-27 18:09:22 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Group-thinking Minmatar? Pilot, I believe you have us confused with a different group. I assure you that our opinions are as varied as any other society. Although we (mostly) speak and act as a unified people during times of national crisis, during normal times there's great difference of opinion between individuals, clans and Tribes.

Instead of living in a perpetual state of denial and victim blaming, I'd recommend actually investigating the allegations of discrimination rather than simply dismissing them out of hand. According to official census figures Matari make up a third of the Federation's population. That's a rather substantial segment of Gallentean society to treat so dismissively.

Even if Federal citizens such as yourself don't see any need for action I'm pretty certain that the politicians courting this huge block of voters will see things differently.




Although we (mostly) speak and act as a unified people during times of national crisis


Hence what's happening now. Discarding the brain during a crises is the first mistake. The Matari can be weaponized against the federation using little more than their own emotions and "heart strings".


This will not end well.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2013-08-27 20:06:34 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
This will not end well.


I think you're overworrying about this, Wolfhammer. Rella's right. A third of all Gallente identify as Minmatar. That doesn't mean that they're all sitting around fingering their khumaaks and dreaming of the Republic. They're Gallente. Most of them have been here for generations. Huge swaths of them came here immediately following their emancipation, and have no experience of the Republic at all. They're not "resources" for Shakor to "weaponize".

That's not to say that discrimination and ethnic violence doesn't occur. It does, and it has to be stamped out when it does. This is business as usual, the regular work of trying to make this multicultural stew that we call a Federation work. Discriminatory behavior and ethnic violence should be dealt with for what they are: retrograde behavior at best, criminal at worst.

If I were to pick one thing as the gravest sin of the Gallente - and I mean all of us in the Federation - it would have to be the sin of overreacting. People panic and lose their rationality when enough shocking things happen. If we don't guard against it, mob mentality takes over and our politicians (or those that we install when we, in our panic, vote them in) are too willing to follow the mob off the cliff of reason.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)