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Timer Rollbacks for FW Plexes

Author
Transmaritanus
Exergy.
#1 - 2013-08-20 19:00:22 UTC
So after having my thread moved from GD to this area. I figured I'd make my arguement here:

We know plexing with triple stabbed cloaked ships is a problem, and in now way represents what FW is supposed to be. When a plex farmer warps out or cloaks, they suffer no consequences and is almost impossible to catch (unless I'm there, of course.)

To solve this, implement timer rollbacks on FW plexes if the timer isn't run down for more than 1 minute.

How does this help?
-A Cloaked farmer will have to decloak to preserve his efforts, allowing a chance at pvp.
-A Stabbed farmer will lose his timer on his LP if he burns out, instead of fighting like he should for his LP.1
-They will no longer farm once they realize that they have to fight to actually earn their LP, thus both encouraging PvP for new players as well as solving the plex farming that is so ubiquitous in FW.

I offer suggestions to amend to this.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-08-20 19:26:40 UTC
If anything your proposal is very generous.

One minutes grace is quite a long time, if you leave the capture zone or cloak it should count down.

It should count down twice as fast if an enemy militia pilot stays in the capture zone. This enables players to take time of faster than farmers can put it on. This is important in case they just keep swapping plexes.

I would also like the NPC to return if the timer counts back to it's starting position after previously reaching a minute or so depending on plex size.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#3 - 2013-08-20 21:35:36 UTC
Players at fanfest complained about farmers swarming the FW warzone and diminishing the efforts of those FW players who wish to play the full FW metagame.

The proposed timer rollback feature has been universally applauded by FW players as one way to help those who want to pvp hold off those who only want to pve in FW plexes.

I think it's time for CCP to comment in this thread and let us know when/if they plan on implementing them. And if not, then why not.



Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#4 - 2013-08-20 21:36:42 UTC
I think automatic defensive timer rollback is not a good idea.

1. Make de-plexing not relevant and not needed a daily acctive gameplay in a system to keep control over it

2. Shift the balance to favour the defenders: make things easier for them in respect of the attackers. This cause stagnant situation like in null sov. In general this also advantage larger militias.

3. Cause neutrals/pirates to affect the warzone control: if a plexer is chased out or killed by neutrals this also affect the warzone control.

Instead:

increasing the the timer speed for defending plexing could be good idea, should be doubled. This still an advantage for defenders but at least requires an active militia gameplay.

Review the rat spawns mechanics (rollback to how was after inferno release) is also a good idea and could re-balance a lot of things.

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#5 - 2013-08-20 22:20:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Domanique Altares
I'm all for timer rollbacks, for both o-plexing and d-plexing.

Remove diagonal plexing, or at minimum halve the rewards. The other warzone might be a hot spot to go grab some pew, but it shouldn't be someplace you go to do maximum farming just because it's slower than your own.

System upgrades should bring tougher, more numerous NPC spawns. Nothing ridiculous, but it should go from being able to kill the Novice NPC(s) with a 1 day character in a bare system to having to bring an actual combat fit frigate to do so in a level 5 upgraded system. Bringing back something similar to the old random wave spawns in fully upgraded systems would also be useful.

System upgrades should also shift plex mechanics in the favor of the defender, exactly as DUST was supposed to do. A fully upgraded system should be slower to o-plex, and faster to d-plex, whether it's a plex-% shift like DUST, or a timer reduction for d-plexing. This doesn't halt farming, but it does reduce its detrimental effects on people who are actually tied to the FW mechanics.

All plexes should have NPCs with the ability to scram/web/ewar, in addition to the size-specific NPC. In Novices this would be the NPC. Each new wave should include one or more of these NPCs.

All plex NPCs should be hostile to anyone who is not in their respective faction militia, regardless of outside standings or other factors. If you go in and you are not militia-X, you get attacked.
Chidori Ukyo
Seijaku no Genkaku
#6 - 2013-08-21 00:38:14 UTC
In short, the problem is parasitism.

Eve is a complex dynamic system. Within such systems, we will always find various forms of Parasitism.
It is to be expected. As such, it must be continually addressed.

There are two ways in which parasites can be handled.
One is for the entities within the system to adapt and fight the parasites on their own.
This can be compared to biological systems arms races.
We have been doing this for quite some time.
I have multiple stab + cloak kills on my board too.

However, the issue has reached a tipping point where we can go no longer handle the parasites in the form and numbers that they have reached on our own.

We therefore must resort to the second form of handling the parasites.
We must have CCP make changes to the system's inherent flaws.
Through the course of the discussion, we have pretty well established that they do exist and what they are.

Ideas have been brought forth.

So here they are, CCP:

1)Timer Rollback or Reset - This idea has been fairly well hashed out.
The overwhelming consensus among the non-parasites is that this will work well, and is in theme with the entire concept of FW. Do it.
You keep what you kill. --Chronicles of Riddick

2)System Upgrades should affect the passive defenses of the plex in some fashion. We are throwing LP at the system core. it ought to be able to afford a few extra ships to help defend the plex and make it harder for poorly fit people to take them. Increase the risk.

3)Plexes are now more numerous. Limit the number of available plexes of a single size to one, that way they can not just pop another of the same size and run between them. Keeping the numbers up is a good thing, making all of them available at once is not. There have been times when this has gone beyond annoying. This will also help force more fights.

4)Concord Status: Neutrals and non-flashy Pirates. Idea: Activation of the entry warp gate requires safety set to yellow for non-FW pilots and automatically set non-FW pilots suspect when activated. We should not be penalized for defending our territory!
Reasoning: There are numerous groups within FW that are Anti-Pirate. The problem is that we must adjust our RoE while defending/attacking a plex and dealing with people that are not a part of FW.

千鳥右京
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#7 - 2013-08-21 01:23:34 UTC
Chidori Ukyo wrote:

4)Concord Status: Neutrals and non-flashy Pirates. Idea: Activation of the entry warp gate requires safety set to yellow for non-FW pilots and automatically set non-FW pilots suspect when activated. We should not be penalized for defending our territory!
Reasoning: There are numerous groups within FW that are Anti-Pirate. The problem is that we must adjust our RoE while defending/attacking a plex and dealing with people that are not a part of FW.

千鳥右京


I see no reason to even fool with safety settings, but I don't have much problem with popping suspect on non-militia that enter a FW plex. They're not going there to cap it, that's for damn sure.
Terbulus
Dog Soldier Collective
#8 - 2013-08-21 03:09:00 UTC
Im in min mil, and I approve of this product or service. Also, hi trannie! o/
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#9 - 2013-08-22 00:21:17 UTC
Bumping for a good idea that almost everyone agrees with.
Humang
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#10 - 2013-08-22 02:11:06 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
I'm all for timer rollbacks, for both o-plexing and d-plexing.

Remove diagonal plexing, or at minimum halve the rewards. The other warzone might be a hot spot to go grab some pew, but it shouldn't be someplace you go to do maximum farming just because it's slower than your own.

System upgrades should bring tougher, more numerous NPC spawns. Nothing ridiculous, but it should go from being able to kill the Novice NPC(s) with a 1 day character in a bare system to having to bring an actual combat fit frigate to do so in a level 5 upgraded system. Bringing back something similar to the old random wave spawns in fully upgraded systems would also be useful.

System upgrades should also shift plex mechanics in the favor of the defender, exactly as DUST was supposed to do. A fully upgraded system should be slower to o-plex, and faster to d-plex, whether it's a plex-% shift like DUST, or a timer reduction for d-plexing. This doesn't halt farming, but it does reduce its detrimental effects on people who are actually tied to the FW mechanics.

All plexes should have NPCs with the ability to scram/web/ewar, in addition to the size-specific NPC. In Novices this would be the NPC. Each new wave should include one or more of these NPCs.

All plex NPCs should be hostile to anyone who is not in their respective faction militia, regardless of outside standings or other factors. If you go in and you are not militia-X, you get attacked.


I'm no longer in FW but I approve of this. Front lines should be just as it sounds.

I will add an an idea however, systems should be easier to capture if it is connected to a system owned by the faction trying to capture it. Maybe even less reward for plexing systems nowhere near a friendly controlled system, and if they manage to capture it, then the next system will be easier as I stated before.

AFK cloaking thread Summary - Provided by Paikis Good Post Etiquette - Provided by CCP Grayscale

Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#11 - 2013-08-22 13:36:52 UTC
Timer rollbacks are required as the bare minimum. Having more numerous NPCs if the system is upgraded and having the rats attack neutrals are at this point "nice to have".
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#12 - 2013-08-22 14:13:57 UTC
Chidori Ukyo wrote:
In short, the problem is parasitism.


I love your style and proposals!
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#13 - 2013-08-22 16:39:49 UTC
Timer rollbacks just make sense.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#14 - 2013-08-23 14:27:26 UTC
Is there a challenge from a programming standpoint to get this implemented?
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#15 - 2013-08-23 14:53:00 UTC
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Is there a challenge from a programming standpoint to get this implemented?

I suppose there is a challange from the business standpoint...
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#16 - 2013-08-23 15:29:40 UTC
I doubt it, even with timer rollbacks farming FW sites will still be very lucrative for people who don't have the knowledge/experience/sp to do something better.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#17 - 2013-08-23 16:02:27 UTC
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
I doubt it, even with timer rollbacks farming FW sites will still be very lucrative for people who don't have the knowledge/experience/sp to do something better.


Yep. It's never going to stop it entirely, since there are always relatively slow times of day and backwater systems to plex in. But it will make a dent in certain sectors of the farming population.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#18 - 2013-08-23 16:24:50 UTC
Agreed. Even a moderate dent in the farmers will reduce their impact on both warzone control and the value of LP related items, and is something I think almost everyone in FW and even the FW Lowsec pirates would like to see.

Are timer rollbacks the end all be all to changes that need to be made in FW? No
Are timer rollbacks something that should be relatively easy & quick to implement that almost everyone agrees with? Yes
Transmaritanus
Exergy.
#19 - 2013-08-23 20:23:39 UTC
Is there a way we can make this more visible to make change? or get a dev tolook into it?
Jennifer Maxwell
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#20 - 2013-08-23 20:36:22 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Players at fanfest complained about farmers swarming the FW warzone and diminishing the efforts of those FW players who wish to play the full FW metagame.

The proposed timer rollback feature has been universally applauded by FW players as one way to help those who want to pvp hold off those who only want to pve in FW plexes.

I think it's time for CCP to comment in this thread and let us know when/if they plan on implementing them. And if not, then why not.




Here's something I'd completely agree with you on. Farmers hold way too much power in FW, to the point where they can make or break a side, not the ones doing the actual fighting.
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