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Tier 3 battlecruiser are usless
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Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 11
Etheoma Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic Likes received: 11	#61 - 2011-11-12 17:31:03 UTC \| Edited by: Etheoma my bad it is better

Vmir Gallahasen

The Scope

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 32

#62 - 2011-11-12 17:34:42 UTC

Alara IonStorm wrote:

Etheoma wrote:

those numbers mean nothing without a plan on how to use them for example if you go for the tornado with the 782 DPS with 36k fall off if your at the falloff range your not going to get 782 DPS your going to get 3/4 if not 1/2 that and if you get in close your enough to do near your max DPS your tank isnt actually going to be able to handle the DPS as well as the hurricane etc which in those circumstances is a better choice

It has the same tank as a Nano Cane of course it can.

Ummmm ? It's got an extra med slot, true, but it's also got about 50% less EHP to begin with. These are going to be snacks for regular BC's

Alara IonStorm wrote:

800mm for starters and they can put more Real DPS on a Nano Cane then Barrage in 425mm's and Warriors at similar ranges.
...
Overall it makes a great DPS Platform for popping Battlecruisers which are the most used class of ship currently

They'll kill nanocanes (barely!) if the Tornado keeps transversal down. But these ships are absolutely terrible at killing any other BC's. That's part of their design. Even a nanocane manual piloting is going to give you a run for your money, if he's good


Etheoma Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic Likes received: 11	#63 - 2011-11-12 17:35:57 UTC \| Edited by: Etheoma oh sugar my bad lower is better eh, ever actually looked at intier modifiers before i just knew which ships were more agile by people telling me

Tanya Powers

Doomheim

Likes received: 2,092

#64 - 2011-11-12 17:45:08 UTC

Alara IonStorm wrote:

Etheoma wrote:

but then you dont have agility and the cane can just keep changing directions on you faster than you can

Yes you do have the Agility of a Cane /facepalm have you even looked at the Stats =/

The Agility is greater then a Cane, a Single Nano Cane and matches a Duel Nano Cane and does more DPS at range and Close then a Duel TE Cane Trip Gyro with Drones on ships with a BC Sized Sig.

Very much this tbh.

Tornado makes everything else pointless has it stands right now.

Etheoma

Brutor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 11

#65 - 2011-11-12 17:46:17 UTC | Edited by: Etheoma

Vmir Gallahasen wrote:

Alara IonStorm wrote:

Etheoma wrote:

It has the same tank as a Nano Cane of course it can.

Ummmm ? It's got an extra med slot, true, but it's also got about 50% less EHP to begin with. These are going to be snacks for regular BC's

Alara IonStorm wrote:

Devils advocate speaking here yeah but the mach does well enough against BC's so and apart from less tank and a less speed and dps but lower sig errr yeah there are a lot of differences but you can draw a parallel

you know what I think i might have a problem with just wanting to do the opposite that people want me to do

and i think the point people have been making is that there going to be supported by normal BC's etc, and guys im not saying these ships are **** im just saying that there are other ships that can fill there roles equally if not better so they are useless not that there not good in and of them self's cool.

Alara IonStorm

Likes received: 5,477

#66 - 2011-11-12 17:52:07 UTC

Vmir Gallahasen wrote:

It has the same tank as a Nano Cane of course it can.

Ummmm ? It's got an extra med slot, true, but it's also got about 50% less EHP to begin with. These are going to be snacks for regular BC's

[/quote]
It does not have 50% less HP.

[Tornado, Gang Support]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
F85 Peripheral Damage System I

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

If you leave the Point and Web up to other ships in the Gang this fit will net you 47k EHP with 5.5 Align and 308m/s / 1818m/s with MWD. So what ever poor dumb Webbed Bastard my Tacklers get there Fists around are really gonna be wishing I was flying something else. Really for less then half the cost of a Battleship and able to a good pace with Nano Gangs and hit Battlecruisers fine I really do not see what is not to love.

Etheoma

Brutor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 11

#67 - 2011-11-12 17:54:45 UTC | Edited by: Etheoma

Alara IonStorm wrote:

Vmir Gallahasen wrote:

It has the same tank as a Nano Cane of course it can.

Ummmm ? It's got an extra med slot, true, but it's also got about 50% less EHP to begin with. These are going to be snacks for regular BC's

It does not have 50% less HP.

[Tornado, Gang Support]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
F85 Peripheral Damage System I

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

If you leave the Point and Web up to other ships in the Gang this fit will net you 47k EHP with 5.5 Align and 308m/s / 1818m/s with MWD. So what ever poor dumb Webbed Bastard my Tacklers get there Fists around are really gonna be wishing I was flying something else. Really for less then half the cost of a Battleship and able to a good pace with Nano Gangs and hit Battlecruisers fine I really do not see what is not to love.
[/quote]

errr CCP said they were going to cost maybe a hair less than a tier 1 BS obv with rigs it costs 30 mill more but that's still not half the cost

also i dont see where your getting 47k EHP coz I'm in eve atm and its says 38k EHP i don't have shield management 5 i think but i'm doubting that's making 9k difference and I'm using a T2 damage console

no i have all the skills to 5

Alara IonStorm

Likes received: 5,477

#68 - 2011-11-12 18:03:22 UTC | Edited by: Alara IonStorm

Etheoma wrote:

errr CCP said they were going to cost maybe a hair less than a tier 1 BS obv with rigs it costs 30 mill more but that's still not half the cost

-30mil on Large Rigs, I foresee an operating cost of close to 85ish Mil which is around the Hull Cost alone of a Tier 2 Hull.

But what I am really paying for is the speed and Agility to keep up with a Nano Gang and Disengage from most enemies. I just happen to be paying 50mil less then a Tier 1, 70mil Less then a Tier 2 and 120 Mil less then a Tier 3 for the privilege.

Anywhere a huge EHP Slug will do better I will use one for the extra cost. But I do have a So - So Geddon fit for 80mil real cheap to fit out if I need a Battleship at the same cost. I am very thrifty.

Etheoma

Brutor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 11

#69 - 2011-11-12 18:13:51 UTC | Edited by: Etheoma

Alara IonStorm wrote:

Etheoma wrote:

errr CCP said they were going to cost maybe a hair less than a tier 1 BS obv with rigs it costs 30 mill more but that's still not half the cost

errr dude if we are going to be fear here lets compare the cost against tier 1 BS which the cost is only 30 mill more and you get like 80k more EHP

and the thing with the battle ships as you have said if your going to be going around with them your going to have support well if you replaced those with tier 1 BS's you could do more damage because you could get your gang to web them and get over there with a MWD and do more damage because you dont have 100k EHP+ so you dont have to lose DPS by traveling fast you dont have to lose dps by staying out at 30+k you can sit there and put 700+ actual damage into them rather than 400dps - 600dps and don't bleat numbers again i'm talking about real situational DPS not the highest you can get

I'm tired of this again im going to bed

Alara IonStorm

Likes received: 5,477

#70 - 2011-11-12 18:19:41 UTC | Edited by: Alara IonStorm

Etheoma wrote:

Night then.

An Armageddon or even a Nanopest can not keep pace with a Nano Shield Cane or Vega Gang. It can't it can't it can't just simply. This thing can though.

There is a huge difference between a Small Gang Battleship and Shield Skirmish Gang.

Etheoma

Brutor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 11

#71 - 2011-11-12 18:36:47 UTC | Edited by: Etheoma

A'Brantox Foson wrote:

Hardly neich with some fits.
[Oracle, New Setup 2]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Centii C-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
Damage Control II

Warp Disruptor II
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator
10MN MicroWarpdrive II

Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

still has an 8.1sec slign time and 815dps at normal engagement ranges, 649dps scorch range. W/ same EHP as a vigilant (180m sig / 1080m sig).

Hardly Neich

actually now i have actually looked at that one seems a hell of a lot more useful than the tornado i made a judgment off the naga and tornado but with the Optimal being at range its perfect you can hit for max damage out at 30 k + but the only thing with amarr is cap how long does that thing last for with the MWD and guns going? i would say you need to fit a cap booster to that kinda standard for amarr and PVP because if you run out of cap you can shoot and from 30k a curse can easily f your day

Alara IonStorm

Likes received: 5,477

#72 - 2011-11-12 18:53:58 UTC

Etheoma wrote:

You can keep the tank with one Small Cap Booster II running Navy 400 Charges and have room for a Sebo for fast lock. She is Stable with the Micro and the 500m3 Cargohold will keep Cap in Supply. With the MWD off you can keep the guns running under Neuts pretty well but a Curse will still suck you dry.

[Oracle, DPS Support Platform]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II

Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

Overall I am pretty excited about these things. Good Morning BTW.

Etheoma

Brutor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 11

#73 - 2011-11-12 19:10:00 UTC | Edited by: Etheoma

[Oracle, New Setup 1]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Adaptive Nano Plating II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range

Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Gamma L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Gamma L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Gamma L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Gamma L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Gamma L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Gamma L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Gamma L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Gamma L

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

You sacrifice 2k-ish EHP for the tracking computer which with scripts can either put up your optimal with Scorch to 52+13 at 649 DPS, conflag 909dps at 17+13 and Navy Gamma 22+13 747 or go for targeting speed which might be useful if your popping em too fast :P

also the Centii C-Type Adaptive Nano Plating only costs about 8 mill i think last time i checked

Looks like I'm going to be training Navigation prediction 5 and large pulse spec, because i think the tornado is pretty useless. maybe cheap alpha gangs but that's about it. I'm disapointed because its awesome looking and as much as i love the hurricane and rifer there still pretty eh looking... its the first minmtar ship in my opinion that has little use in PVP or anywhere and the first minmtar ship that actually looks great.

my maths was not right you cant get T2 guns and Medium booster :(

PS: Yes they have if anyone else was wondering on EFT anyways there's a winter preview one obv keep your current one and put it in a file named test or something because CCP might change the BC's or other things before TQ release

I need to go to bed now I needed to go a long time ago

Vmir Gallahasen

The Scope

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 32

#74 - 2011-11-12 19:44:14 UTC | Edited by: Vmir Gallahasen

Etheoma wrote:

Vmir Gallahasen wrote:

Ummmm ? It's got an extra med slot, true, but it's also got about 50% less EHP to begin with. These are going to be snacks for regular BC's

It does not have 50% less HP.

Hurricane: 3516 struct
Tornado: 1800
51% of total structure of Cane

Hurricane: 4688 Armor
Tornado: 1800 Armor
38.4% of total armor of cane

Hurricane: 4297 shield
Tornado: 1890
44% of total shield of cane

So yes, it begins with 50% (less!) of the EHP of a cane. Yes it's got one med slot, but to say it's got the same tank as a nanocane is so idiotic I have trouble figuring out how that even got said let alone defended?

Etheoma wrote:

The mach is slower than the Tornado. The mach doesn't need to keep moving to avoid getting obliterated when killing a bc. Both of these things mean there are less factors working against you tracking-wise in a mach than a tornado.

Alara IonStorm

Likes received: 5,477

#75 - 2011-11-12 20:02:18 UTC | Edited by: Alara IonStorm

Vmir Gallahasen wrote:

So yes, it begins with 50% (less!) of the EHP of a cane. Yes it's got one med slot, but to say it's got the same tank as a nanocane is so idiotic I have trouble figuring out how that even got said let alone defended?

Well I have a fit up there that has the same amount of tank as the Standard Nano Cane acting as Fire Support for a Gang so I would guess It is because you can get it to have the same amount of EHP as a Standard Nano Cane by using all Mids 4 slots for Tank. The Tornado can get 48000 EHP in the DPS Support Role.

But if you want to remove Tackle from the Nano Cane and use 3 mids for tank it will go from equal to 16 % more.

To say it has 50% less HP because of the Base stats is:

Vmir Gallahasen wrote:

so idiotic I have trouble figuring out how that even got said let alone defended?


Etheoma Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic Likes received: 11	#76 - 2011-11-12 20:11:23 UTC \| Edited by: Etheoma gotta agree with whats his face, you cant just look at hit point and say ah that has a worse tank you have to look at the base resistances and if the ship has any resistance bonuses the tier 3s don't but eh you need to fit it up before saying anything dude EHP includes resistance just encase you didn't catch that memo

Etheoma

Brutor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 11

#77 - 2011-11-12 20:23:04 UTC | Edited by: Etheoma

Alara IonStorm wrote:

Vmir Gallahasen wrote:

so idiotic I have trouble figuring out how that even got said let alone defended?

The problem i can see is when you try and fit its short on CPU for

[Tornado, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II

800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

Suppose you should just go named, is thats why you had the P85 damage control in there because that does fix it still wont be using these though unless I'm using 1400's from a LONG distance and a very slow target or if someone is stupid enough to make a bee line for me


Alara IonStorm Likes received: 5,477	#78 - 2011-11-12 20:28:57 UTC Etheoma wrote: The problem i can see is when you try and fit its short on CPU for Without the Nano you are faster then a 2x Nano Cane with the same Agility. So you can through a CPU Enhancer in if your Skills are not near maxed.

Etheoma

Brutor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 11

#79 - 2011-11-12 20:36:28 UTC | Edited by: Etheoma

Alara IonStorm wrote:

Etheoma wrote:

The problem i can see is when you try and fit its short on CPU for

Without the Nano you are faster then a 2x Nano Cane with the same Agility. So you can through a CPU Enhancer in if your Skills are not near maxed.

actually that is with all skills to 5 that you cant fit the damage con T2, but you only lose about 2.3k EHP so no biggy

Tippia

Sunshine and Lollipops

Likes received: 27,526

#80 - 2011-11-12 21:35:54 UTC

Etheoma wrote:

Ok i have had a day to recuperate so now i can come back and further explain why the tier 3 BC's and the specialization is useless because other ships can fill there roles better

…ships such as…?

What other ship offers the damage output combined with the speed and manoeuvrability combined with the low cost combined with the flexibility combined with the silly low skill requirements combined with [etc]?

Etheoma wrote:

and the thing with the battle ships as you have said if your going to be going around with them your going to have support well if you replaced those with tier 1 BS's you could do more damage because you could get your gang to web them and get over there with a MWD and do more damage because you dont have 100k EHP+ so you dont have to lose DPS by traveling fast you dont have to lose dps by staying out at 30+k you can sit there and put 700+ actual damage into them rather than 400dps - 600dps and don't bleat numbers again i'm talking about real situational DPS not the highest you can get

Have you heard of this funny little punctuation mark called the “period”? It's a wonderful thing. You should get to know it and use it.

Anyway, everything you said here holds true for the BCs as well. They are meant to be used with a gang, so it is a thoroughly trivial matter to get the full DPS out of them, and no, you don't need to buzz around like your hair is on fire because your gang has already taken care of that problem. Yes, even the torp Naga will do full damage against most targets, if you use it correctly…

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