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Cloaking device with fuel

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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#441 - 2013-08-19 14:35:49 UTC
Nag'o wrote:
No dude, just the inactive people. What difference does it make if they are online or not? They are not doing anything in the game!

Psychological warfare plays on the hopes and desires of an opponent, in this scenario.

The risk averse interests are countered by the desire to make ISK.
When the probability that the hostile is AFK, in the mind of the viewer, reaches a certain point, they decide to take a chance to satisfy the desire to make ISK.

Thus, the presence online creates a behavior not possible to inspire otherwise, which has value.

It is like a gardener in a cold climate, wanting to grow plants in a warm climate.

If we want PvE pilots to behave like such pilots do elsewhere, we need to duplicate these conditions, like a gardener does a greenhouse.
We see the PvE pilot unused to hostile presence, so we bring this to them just like it is in high sec and low sec. The gardener blocks out the cold, and warms the air to levels a tropical plant can grow in.
The PvE pilot, now used to hostile presence, adapts and resumes activity. If smart, they plan to deal with hostiles rather than gamble about not encountering them. The gardener plants his tropical plants in the greenhouse, and watches them grow.
The PvE pilot is attacked. Whether they survive or not is equally dependent on their efforts as much as the attacking ship, since both had time to anticipate what they thought they would encounter. The gardener picks the orchid, and puts it on display to share the beauty of it with others.

Gardening, it is a lot like PvP, if you look at it that way....

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#442 - 2013-08-19 14:37:13 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:


But I actually enjoy this, and due to quirks in my mind, I don't actually get tired of endlessly crushing his arguments.

Twisted

All you managed to crush was my belief on your ability to conduct a serious discussion.

Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#443 - 2013-08-19 14:39:15 UTC
Nag'o wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Because if his assertions about what the problem is, what its effects are, and his suggested fixes aren't ripped to pieces and the true motivations revealed then people may actually start to believe the myths and lies

This is sadly true.

The nature of propaganda, is that any lie repeated often enough to those lacking other information, tends to take root.

Marketing works in similar fashion, as repeating a name brand often enough creates familiarity with it, and results in that brand being chosen over others as a result.

The greatest flaw and asset to human logic is that it can adapt, and adaptation requires a constant presence.
If rational thinking answers a question, then you adapt to the truth.
If you have no means of knowing a topic, then you adapt to whatever sounds good that you hear most often.

Propagandists and marketers know this, so they repeat what they want you to believe as often as they can.

The one that wishes to stabilish a constant presence here is you. I'm just answering direct questions.

So, what I'm doing is propaganda through marketing, uh? That coming from the guy that keeps pointing at the outdoor on his signature with a link to his proposed idea is quite something.

The difference between facts used to educate, and marketing being used to deceive, is that the facts can be verified and demonstrated.

Marketing works best with facts, but it never limits itself to these.

I expect to have my facts and arguments challenged, so I limit myself to items I can verify and demonstrate.

You, past exchanges repeatedly show, do not limit yourself this way.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#444 - 2013-08-19 14:40:23 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
No dude, just the inactive people. What difference does it make if they are online or not? They are not doing anything in the game!

Psychological warfare plays on the hopes and desires of an opponent, in this scenario.

The risk averse interests are countered by the desire to make ISK.
When the probability that the hostile is AFK, in the mind of the viewer, reaches a certain point, they decide to take a chance to satisfy the desire to make ISK.

Thus, the presence online creates a behavior not possible to inspire otherwise, which has value.

It is like a gardener in a cold climate, wanting to grow plants in a warm climate.

If we want PvE pilots to behave like such pilots do elsewhere, we need to duplicate these conditions, like a gardener does a greenhouse.
We see the PvE pilot unused to hostile presence, so we bring this to them just like it is in high sec and low sec. The gardener blocks out the cold, and warms the air to levels a tropical plant can grow in.
The PvE pilot, now used to hostile presence, adapts and resumes activity. If smart, they plan to deal with hostiles rather than gamble about not encountering them. The gardener plants his tropical plants in the greenhouse, and watches them grow.
The PvE pilot is attacked. Whether they survive or not is equally dependent on their efforts as much as the attacking ship, since both had time to anticipate what they thought they would encounter. The gardener picks the orchid, and puts it on display to share the beauty of it with others.

Gardening, it is a lot like PvP, if you look at it that way....

All you're doing is repeating the same arguments with different text. I'm bored.


Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#445 - 2013-08-19 14:41:05 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
Say you want a ship to be hidden in a system for a long period while some sort of op is prepared. You just jump in with it and log off. Isn't that what capital pilots do?


So you effectively want to force more people to log-off? What sort of crazy notion is that! Doesn't this fly in the face of your "I want more activity not less" statement some pages ago?

Why should I log-off because I'm in a fleet that's forming up and we're Cov-Ops specialists with Co-Ops specialist fits and ships?


I pointed out the same thing several pages ago. Everything he says contradicts his statements about what the problem and what the goal is
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#446 - 2013-08-19 14:41:51 UTC
Nag'o wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:


But I actually enjoy this, and due to quirks in my mind, I don't actually get tired of endlessly crushing his arguments.

Twisted

All you managed to crush was my belief on your ability to conduct a serious discussion.

Sad sad comment, with no foundation in truth to support it.

Perhaps you should acknowledge when one of your points are beaten, rather than pretend noone has ever done so.

I dare you to ask which point... go on....

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#447 - 2013-08-19 14:43:18 UTC
Nag'o wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Gardening, it is a lot like PvP, if you look at it that way....

All you're doing is repeating the same arguments with different text. I'm bored.

Since you never acknowledge any arguments against you by surrendering the point, it was unclear whether you had read them.

We can now check that off, you are reading them.

Next up, are you understanding them?

Twisted

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#448 - 2013-08-19 14:49:56 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
Say you want a ship to be hidden in a system for a long period while some sort of op is prepared. You just jump in with it and log off. Isn't that what capital pilots do?


So you effectively want to force more people to log-off? What sort of crazy notion is that! Doesn't this fly in the face of your "I want more activity not less" statement some pages ago?

Why should I log-off because I'm in a fleet that's forming up and we're Cov-Ops specialists with Co-Ops specialist fits and ships?


I pointed out the same thing several pages ago. Everything he says contradicts his statements about what the problem and what the goal is


I will just quote myself, troll.

Nag'o wrote:

No dude, just the inactive people. What difference does it make if they are online or not? They are not doing anything in the game!
How long does it take for a cov-op specialist fleet to form up and strike? You do not want me to believe that takes a whole day of activity to set-up.

Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#449 - 2013-08-19 14:55:13 UTC
Sigh. Except your solution by the very definitions you give doesn't affect "just the inactive". It hinders active players even MORE than it'd hinder afk players based on your descriptions. We've been over this countless times, and gave countless explanations and examples.

All you do is dismiss them by saying "troll" and "but its just the inactive players"

Your posts are almost incoherent at this point
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#450 - 2013-08-19 15:10:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
Nag'o wrote:
If someone has to reactivate a cloak every 1 or 2 hours he is active somehow. How much is of a hidrance to hit a button two times? "Oh, it will give up his position." Just warp outside d-scan for doing that. I do that everytime with cov-ops to drop probes when I don't want to be detected and it's not a hidrance, it's just part of the hiding game. The way I see you just want an excuse to leave your ship cloaked while you go afk the whole day not giving a **** about what is happening in the game.


So to remain cloaked I have to put in more effort for you to have balance from "AFK Cloakers"...how does that only affect "AFK" players? Also how do you know that you have "warped outside of D-Scan" when D-Scan has a range of 12\14AU's and more Cov-Ops Pilots\ might be sat where I land to re-cloak?

Please show me or explain to me cos I am dying to know HTH that works...

EDIT: How much of a hindrance...well how much more free Intel do you want when I uncloak and have to re-cloak along with the rest of my Stealth Bomber squadron? Exactly! It's another free intel gathering tool just like, well this could be awkward, but LOCAL.

EDIT 2: Also so now I have to abandon my perch possibly missing vital ACTIVE gathering intelligence to feed into my intel channel because I need to re-cloak...marvelous...not a hindrance at all.

EDIT 3: Actually I'm pretty sure I pay my monthly fee and if I choose to AFK Cloak in a system for whatever reason and for however long I choose I am well within my rights as a paying customer to do so. If you choose to dock up 23.5/7/365 then you have that right as well. I cannot know everything that is happening in game as per your quote "The way I see you just want an excuse to leave your ship cloaked while you go afk the whole day not giving a **** about what is happening in the game." as to do so would mean my being in every system in EVE.

The way I see it is you want risk free play from people you think aren't there but actually might be and you don't like it.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
RoAnnon
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#451 - 2013-08-19 15:13:39 UTC
Nag'o wrote:
The point of removing afk cloaking is not to remove risk.


There is NO RISK to remove, as an AFK pilot, cloaked or not, as well as a cloaked pilot, AFK or not, cannot interact with you or hurt you in any way. The only risk is in your own mind.

Nag'o wrote:
The point is reducing the uncertainty threshold of the cloaked pilot being afk or not.


That's your argument in a nutshell: You want that certainty to know whether or not it's safe to undock and go about your business in system with no fear of losing your ship.

Nag'o wrote:
Cloak should not be a mechanic for adding uncertainty about player activity. Cloak should add uncertainty of ship location.


This is a judgement call on your part, i.e.: your opinion, that most here don't share with you, and the way the game is working, CCP doesn't either.

Nag'o wrote:
... hence the problem wouldn't be completely solved.


Because there's no problem that needs solving.

Nag'o wrote:
Restraining cloak time would solve the problem BOTH in nullsec and lowsec. You can still remove local in null if you want, I'm not against it. In fact I think it would be quite cool. The thing is THIS IS NOT THE POINT OF THIS THREAD.


The point of this thread is a lot of folks don't know how to operate in an environment that includes, not just risk, but the question of whether or not there's any risk at all... That's even more pathetic than the people that merely have an aversion to risk. People who are trying to nerf the ability to sit AFK in a cloaked ship seem to fall into one of two categories:

1) Someone who wants to be able to get free kills on pilots that cannot shoot back
2) Someone who has an innate need to feel in control, and abhors any situation that has some factor of uncertainty involved

The ability to cloak indefinitely is a valid and vital game mechanic in EVE. The fact that some people don't like the effect it has on themselves mentally and emotionally in some situations is not a valid reason whatsoever to change that mechanic, not even mentioning how many sectors of gameplay within EVE which would be broken if the mechanic were changed.

So, you're a bounty hunter. No, that ain't it at all. Then what are you? I'm a bounty hunter.

Broadcast4Reps

Eve Vegas 2015 Pub Crawl Group 9

Houston EVE Meet
CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
#452 - 2013-08-19 15:24:50 UTC
I have removed a personal attack from this thread.

EVE Online/DUST 514 Community Representative ※ EVE Illuminati ※ Fiction Adept

@CCP_Eterne ※ @EVE_LiveEvents
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#453 - 2013-08-19 15:41:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
CCP Eterne wrote:
I have removed a personal attack from this thread.


Good call CCP Eterne, we're not about attacking, we're about educating no matter how long it takes. Lol

EDIT: Did Local tell you it was in this thread of was it active Intelligence gathering AKA browsing and watching? Just curious.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
seany1212
M Y S T
#454 - 2013-08-19 15:47:46 UTC
CCP Eterne wrote:
I have removed a personal attack from this thread.


Can't you just remove the whole thread, the whole premise is just bad and the reasoning behind the premise changes by the second Lol
Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen
#455 - 2013-08-19 15:54:14 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
CCP Eterne wrote:
I have removed a personal attack from this thread.


Good call CCP Eterne, we're not about attacking, we're about educating no matter how long it takes. Lol

EDIT: Did Local tell you it was in this thread of was it active Intelligence gathering AKA browsing and watching? Just curious.


I'm guessing CCP Eterne was AFK Cloaked in this thread.

To affect the thread, however, he had to decloak first, thus proving that whining about AFK cloaking is without merit.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#456 - 2013-08-19 16:05:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
Gospadin wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
CCP Eterne wrote:
I have removed a personal attack from this thread.


Good call CCP Eterne, we're not about attacking, we're about educating no matter how long it takes. Lol

EDIT: Did Local tell you it was in this thread of was it active Intelligence gathering AKA browsing and watching? Just curious.


I'm guessing CCP Eterne was AFK Cloaked in this thread.

To affect the thread, however, he had to decloak first, thus proving that whining about AFK cloaking is without merit.


Ah but was he AFK? To know that something had changed and to interact with it he had to have been active or become active at a point before we saw his interaction to effect the desired change in the thread. We just don't know for sure what his state was and therefore I will assume that now I have seen him active by his showing up in the thread that he is and will continue to be active thus I will guard myself against him.

Disclaimer: It wasn't my comment that was removed.

EDIT: Did you see what I did there?

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
RoAnnon
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#457 - 2013-08-19 16:06:44 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
This is sadly true.

The nature of propaganda, is that any lie repeated often enough to those lacking other information, tends to take root.

Marketing works in similar fashion, as repeating a name brand often enough creates familiarity with it, and results in that brand being chosen over others as a result.

The greatest flaw and asset to human logic is that it can adapt, and adaptation requires a constant presence.
If rational thinking answers a question, then you adapt to the truth.
If you have no means of knowing a topic, then you adapt to whatever sounds good that you hear most often.

Propagandists and marketers know this, so they repeat what they want you to believe as often as they can.


One day in the grocery store, a woman picked up a loaf of Wonder Bread(tm) and tossed it into the buggy. A local rep for the bakery walked over to her.

"Excuse me Ma'am, but may I ask, which portion of Wonder Bread's(tm) current ad marketing campaign convinced you to buy our product today?"

The woman replied "oh, no dearie, I don't pay any attention to all those commercials on the TV or radio."

"Then why did you choose Wonder Bread(tm) today?" the rep asked.

The woman smiled, "Because Wonder Bread(tm) helps build stronger bodies in 12 different ways..."

So, you're a bounty hunter. No, that ain't it at all. Then what are you? I'm a bounty hunter.

Broadcast4Reps

Eve Vegas 2015 Pub Crawl Group 9

Houston EVE Meet
Mag's
Azn Empire
#458 - 2013-08-19 16:14:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Nag'o wrote:
Mag's wrote:
...
No I'm not agreeing with you regarding earnings, as you claim that you are unable to earn anything. I'm saying that yes there may be a reduction, as ISK per hour may drop when ratting in PvP fit ships for example, but that's a far cry from unable to earn anything.
...
I'm saying that those who move to null who accept that there may be enemies hanging round from time to time. Accept they are in an area of space meant to be riskier than most, deal with it as I subscribe and don't see it as a problem either. They see it as part and parcel of null sec life. Higher rewards, with what is meant to be higher risk. Although in reality the risk isn't higher. Which is why we find it odd, that you and other want to remove some.
...

I didn't said they are unable to earn anything, you did. What I said was that there is a damage to isk earning potential in all different security system. But that is not even the core of the matter. The core is that the afk cloaker is affecting the other players game by inducing them to take a different action due to his character presence, while he himself is not even there playing the game.

And again, this is not about removing risks, it's about adding risks to the afk cloaker, and to the afk cloaker only.

No those are your words exactly copy and pasted and quoted. You said that in your post number 399 in response to mine of 395. It was I that mentioned them messing with your ISK earning potential.

The core of the matter and the whole point, is he using local against you to in an attempt to alter you play. Nothing is guaranteed in this regard, but as I said before I'll accept the point. But this only goes to show that local in it's current form, can be very useful. But at the same time, used against you.

But like I said, more rewards come with more risk. Nerfing cloaks is completely about removing risk and that in turn, increases rewards. Not a balanced approach.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
RoAnnon
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#459 - 2013-08-19 16:15:36 UTC
Y'all were busy over the weekend while my internet was down (stupid thunderstorm fried my modem), I just realized it was 6 pages or so between my posts. I also realized I'm really no longer reading Nag'o's posts, just the replies. It's pretty clear to me that he understands just enough about game mechanics to make a mess of things, though by his own admission he knows very little about Sov Null gameplay to actively discuss it, despite his trying to break it by nerfing cloaks.

So, you're a bounty hunter. No, that ain't it at all. Then what are you? I'm a bounty hunter.

Broadcast4Reps

Eve Vegas 2015 Pub Crawl Group 9

Houston EVE Meet
Maekchu
Doomheim
#460 - 2013-08-19 16:28:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Maekchu
Funny thread to read. Got a bit long though, so skipped through some of the later pages.

But AFK cloaking can't be a problem, since the person is AFK, thus poses no threat, since he can't make any actions... Basically, cause he is AFK.

If you feel they have an advantage over you by AFK cloaking, then in reality it isn't them having an advantage, but you creating a disadvantage for yourself. It is your own perception that the system isn't safe, that creates the advantage for the AFK cloaker. If you wouldn't be so damn risk averse and just undock and continue doing what you were doing, you just removed that advantage by not being influenced by the AFK cloaker.

But the problem isn't really the cloaking mechanics. The reason people have an issue with afk cloakers, is still derived from local being the perfect, constantly updated scouting tool.

I'll love and cherish the day CCP decides that it is time to remove local from both null and lowsec. Probably never going to happen, but a man can still dream.

I suppose we all can admit that it is just too easy to stay safe in EVE. Especially considering EVE is supposed to be this hardcore game where pirates and rivalring pilots fly around blowing up your hard earned cash and the only space you are supposed to be safe is within the borders of the Empire.

The only thing we pirates in reality provide, is some pew pew for the people who wants to exchange some shots... And the occasional gank on a PvEer who is stupid enough not to watch local and d-scan. The only tool we really got is instalock gatecamping (it's too easy to avoid smartbombing camps), but who really wants to do that? :P