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FW: The War Zone Is Too Big
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cearaen
Plus 10 NV
#61 - 2013-08-18 17:28:19 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
cearaen wrote:

X Gallentius wrote:

That's exactly what happens. If blob stays blobbed up in only a few systems, they lose sov in the hinterlands.


No one cares about sov in 90% of systems because sov is a moronic pve mechanic. XG you susan black can keep the rose colored glasses on and think there is nothing wrong with stabs being the main module used by plexers.

http://www.gamerchick.net/2013/08/confessions-of-stabbed-farmer.html

But as each month passes more players realize that the fw sov mechanics promote rabbit plexing.

Decreasing the size of the war zone would help in this regard but it also promotes null sec blobbery. There are other, better, options and ccp has even expressed an interest in pursuing those options. But they were shelved and ccp moved away from fw. Players need to support eachother in getting ccp to take those options off the shelf. We should not try to live in a fantasy land thinking fw sov is fine.

Hey, I just thought of something. Why don't we have a notification system to make the FW sov warfare a pvp mechanic instead of a pve mechanic?

But in any case, thanks for using a blog by Susan Black to validate MY opinion on plexing alts (even though our opinions are not the same).



You and susan are both trying justify this mechanic. You constantly post with your irrelevant comments about how many more kills there are in low sec, (since when I don't know) as well as your defeatists posts suggesting "farmers gonna farm," and you cant force anyone to pvp.

If you wanted plexing to involve pvp instead of pve, you would indeed support proposals to give pilots real time intel where plexes were being taken. It's a pretty straight forward way to prevent rabbit plexing. Instead you try to muddy the waters to suggest everything in fw sov is working fine.


Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#62 - 2013-08-18 21:23:11 UTC
I just don't get CCP. What was the goal of FW? Intro to new pilots? It fails as most of the veterans focus around a few systems backed by OGB in POS. Null Sec light? There is little parallel in the pathetic upgrades allowed. You really can't invest in the space or better it in a meaningful way. Random isk faucet? I guess so but why?

Limiting the FW area won't address the main problem that there is no vision or thought process behind FW. I understand Eve is a sandbox and all but FFS use sand and not kitty litter to fill the damn thing up.
cearaen
Plus 10 NV
#63 - 2013-08-19 14:39:54 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
I just don't get CCP. What was the goal of FW? Intro to new pilots? It fails as most of the veterans focus around a few systems backed by OGB in POS. Null Sec light? There is little parallel in the pathetic upgrades allowed. You really can't invest in the space or better it in a meaningful way. Random isk faucet? I guess so but why?

Limiting the FW area won't address the main problem that there is no vision or thought process behind FW. I understand Eve is a sandbox and all but FFS use sand and not kitty litter to fill the damn thing up.



I think the original vision for the inferno release was that people in each faction would have large militia wide plexing pushes throughout the warzone to try to accomplish a very lucrative cashout. You had to plan to take at least 80% of the warzone for a big cashout. Complain what you will, it was pretty exciting, and much strategy and counter strategy was discussed. The entire militias lp was held up dependant on the outcome of these large scale pushes. The best strategies were never actually tested before the forever grind was implemented on October 22 2012.

After October 22 2012 I have no clue what the idea was. All the goals (except to keep d-plexing home systems) excitement, and discussion of strategy, just sort of went away. Now if you run plexes to get to a hirer tier you will just benefit fair weather militia who will join late and get to reap the benefits of your work and dilute your lp. I am not sure I could design a more stagnant system if I tried.



X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#64 - 2013-08-19 15:12:13 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
I just don't get CCP. What was the goal of FW?
To provide a release valve for the fanatics in each faction to kill each other rather than force the empires into total war (go look at the origins of FW and you'll see that this statement is 100% true). Looks to me like they succeeded.

To those of you who are new to FW: wrt to Cearain's comments about "militia wide plexing pushes" - These plexing pushes, which he was never part of, were mindnumbingly boring and resulted in very little pew. Any participant of these pushes - he was not one of them - will agree.

David Devant
CTRL-Q
Ushra'Khan
#65 - 2013-08-19 15:22:56 UTC
This is departing from Lucius OP somewhat isn't it.

I actually wouldn't support a reduction in the number of systems, but I do believe LP should be scaled in a smart way. There are systems that no one cares about (Sif, Ezz) and it doesn't make sense that the empires dish out LP for capuring these derelict systems to the same measure it would if I'd pinned down valuable strategic site in a system like Kamela or Huola.

There needs to be a better mechanic. Of course no one will find consensus, but for my 2isk I would like to see meaningful rewards for system upgrades and these also could usefully generate a scale of 'importance' for LP rewards.

Also rollbacks and no stabs.

xx
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#66 - 2013-08-19 15:29:47 UTC
cearaen wrote:
After October 22 2012 I have no clue what the idea was. All the goals (except to keep d-plexing home systems) excitement, and discussion of strategy, just sort of went away. Now if you run plexes to get to a hirer tier you will just benefit fair weather militia who will join late and get to reap the benefits of your work and dilute your lp. I am not sure I could design a more stagnant system if I tried.
Just because you don't see it doesn't mean there isn't any "higher order strategy" going on.

To everybody new in FW: What Cearain means is that thousands of plexing alts would endlessly farm the hinterlands and cash in the LP after all the PVP'ers spent a week losing their souls busting IHUBS. That system resulted in such an imbalance in the overall game that CCP was forced to change the mechanic in October rather than wait until December. Everybody knows this. So, it's pretty ridiculous that he doesn't understand what the idea was. CCP stated it in their blogs and all the forums for everybody to see.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#67 - 2013-08-19 15:31:16 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
David Devant wrote:

Also rollbacks .

Definitely the first step.
cearaen
Plus 10 NV
#68 - 2013-08-19 15:31:45 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
I just don't get CCP. What was the goal of FW?
To provide a release valve for the fanatics in each faction to kill each other rather than force the empires into total war (go look at the origins of FW and you'll see that this statement is 100% true). Looks to me like they succeeded.

To those of you who are new to FW: wrt to Cearain's comments about "militia wide plexing pushes" - These plexing pushes, which he was never part of, were mindnumbingly boring and resulted in very little pew. Any participant of these pushes - he was not one of them - will agree.


XG throwing more mud in the water.

I participated in plexing pushes. I did not participate in large scale bunker busts.

To be clear:
I am not saying that plexing pushes or bunker busts were anything other than mind numbing. (Plexing has always needed to be tweaked so that it generates pvp.) However nothing changed on 10/22/2012 to make either plexing pushes, or bunker busts any less mindnumbing.

However Before 10/22/2012 there used to be decent goals that the majority of militia pilots had an sizable interest in. There was allot of discussion of strategies and counter strategies that each militia could employ.

After 10/22/2012 well its been getting more and more stagnant. No talk about strategy because the strategy is so dumbed down we might as well say it doesn't exist. No real goals outside of taking home systems or maybe doing a total push for sov like caladari did soon after fw was introduced.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#69 - 2013-08-19 15:43:35 UTC
cearaen wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
I just don't get CCP. What was the goal of FW?
To provide a release valve for the fanatics in each faction to kill each other rather than force the empires into total war (go look at the origins of FW and you'll see that this statement is 100% true). Looks to me like they succeeded.

To those of you who are new to FW: wrt to Cearain's comments about "militia wide plexing pushes" - These plexing pushes, which he was never part of, were mindnumbingly boring and resulted in very little pew. Any participant of these pushes - he was not one of them - will agree.


XG throwing more mud in the water.

I participated in plexing pushes. I did not participate in large scale bunker busts.
You did not do the mindnumbingly boring task of busting the bunkers. I'm sorry if I implied that you didn't benefit from endlessly farming plexes and then profiting off the hard work of others who DID bust the bunkers.

Quote:

To be clear:
I am not saying that plexing pushes or bunker busts were anything other than mind numbing. (Plexing has always needed to be tweaked so that it generates pvp.) However nothing changed on 10/22/2012 to make either plexing pushes, or bunker busts any less mindnumbing.

Mindnumbing is doing 85 bunkers over a short time period. Mindnumbing is NOT doing a couple a day.

Quote:

However Before 10/22/2012 there used to be decent goals that the majority of militia pilots had an sizable interest in. There was allot of discussion of strategies and counter strategies that each militia could employ.

After 10/22/2012 well its been getting more and more stagnant. No talk about strategy because the strategy is so dumbed down we might as well say it doesn't exist. No real goals outside of taking home systems or maybe doing a total push for sov like caladari did soon after fw was introduced.
It was stagnant in October. The metagame was clearly understood by all and it also broke the game (Eve Online, not just FW).



cearaen
Plus 10 NV
#70 - 2013-08-19 15:44:15 UTC
David Devant wrote:
This is departing from Lucius OP somewhat isn't it.


Not really. His point is that people don't care about these other systems so eliminate them.

My point is that people used to care about the other 90% of the warzone before 10/22/2012.

Eliminating all the systems people don't care about will likely mean fw has less room for small scale pvpers.

I think it would be better to preserve the the small scale pvp and go back to an lp system where people do care about the other 90% of systems.



David Devant wrote:
...
Also rollbacks and no stabs.

xx




Yes rollbacks. There we are getting to the heart of the matter. Special fw rules about stabs won't change much IMO.
cearaen
Plus 10 NV
#71 - 2013-08-19 15:53:14 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:

Quote:

However Before 10/22/2012 there used to be decent goals that the majority of militia pilots had an sizable interest in. There was allot of discussion of strategies and counter strategies that each militia could employ.

After 10/22/2012 well its been getting more and more stagnant. No talk about strategy because the strategy is so dumbed down we might as well say it doesn't exist. No real goals outside of taking home systems or maybe doing a total push for sov like caladari did soon after fw was introduced.
It was stagnant in October. The metagame was clearly understood by all and it also broke the game (Eve Online, not just FW).





I agree the rewards were too high. They could have just nerfed the lp instead of removing the incentive to care about 90% of the systems. Of course, you already know this but you just want to muddy the waters.

The metagame that existed before October was still debated in October, and its still debated now. You just pushed for the new system and refuse admit the problems. Namely it leads to a stagnant system where no one cares about sov in 90% of systems.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#72 - 2013-08-19 16:00:40 UTC
cearaen wrote:
.....
I think we're missing the bigger picture here. We both, and the vast majority of those who participate in FW, agree that timer rollbacks should be implemented. This would effectively shrink the warzone (something the OP wants) by allowing fewer players to run off many plexing alts from systems - if that's what they want to do.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#73 - 2013-08-19 16:01:04 UTC
before inferno i was a big fan of an alternative way how the LP store works which would change the value of individual systems.

lets face it, the current system upgrades have no value (everything on the "we might add it later" list was never added by CCP). You take a system to have one system more, you upgrade it to have one point more on the WZ-control bar - thats it.


Imagine you could take system X, Y and Z and remove the faction cruiser from your enemies LP shop by doing this. Each system could give you a certain set of LP shop items, the more systems which produce the same item you hold the cheaper they become, if you have none the item is unavailable.
Even crazier: imagine by holding hostile system X, Y and Z you suddenly have the enemies faction cruiser in your LP shop (however a bit more expensive as it would be for the enemy faction).

This would change everything in FW. Systems suddenly have value and you want to live in them and protect important ones. Unimportant systems could be the border systems and farmer paradise.

(disclaimer: this doesn't fix plexing itself which remains broken as long there is no incentive to stay in a plex)

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
cearaen
Plus 10 NV
#74 - 2013-08-19 16:17:59 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
cearaen wrote:
.....
I think we're missing the bigger picture here. We both, and the vast majority of those who participate in FW, agree that timer rollbacks should be implemented. This would effectively shrink the warzone (something the OP wants) by allowing fewer players to run off many plexing alts from systems - if that's what they want to do.



+1

The first step should be to make it so gaining sov (plexing) is not mindnumbing, but instead full of pvp.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#75 - 2013-08-19 16:52:23 UTC
cearaen wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
cearaen wrote:
.....
I think we're missing the bigger picture here. We both, and the vast majority of those who participate in FW, agree that timer rollbacks should be implemented. This would effectively shrink the warzone (something the OP wants) by allowing fewer players to run off many plexing alts from systems - if that's what they want to do.



+1

The first step should be to make it so gaining sov (plexing) is not mindnumbing, but instead full of pvp.






And as evident by this thread - no one agrees on how to make that happen.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#76 - 2013-08-19 17:14:43 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
And as evident by this thread - no one agrees on how to make that happen.
Yeah, FW is off the radar of the devs. Not much we can do until they look at it again.
Salicaz
Verrimus Caelum
#77 - 2013-08-19 18:14:25 UTC
Posting in another Cearaen/ X Gall derailment thread.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#78 - 2013-08-19 19:45:10 UTC
Salicaz wrote:
Posting in another Cearaen/ X Gall derailment thread.
Hey man I brought it back on topic!
David Devant
CTRL-Q
Ushra'Khan
#79 - 2013-08-20 11:22:02 UTC
I really like Bienator's idea above. If you capture key systems enemy production of certain faction goodies is halted. That would be a fun 'consequence'. Would mean that capturing and holding systems was actually important and lp grinding alone would not be profitable if the warzone was in flux.

Guess only trouble is that bottlenecks could actually benefit the loosing side.
David Devant
CTRL-Q
Ushra'Khan
#80 - 2013-08-20 11:26:30 UTC
David Devant wrote:
I really like Bienator's idea above. If you capture key systems enemy production of certain faction goodies is halted. That would be a fun 'consequence'. Would mean that capturing and holding systems was actually important and lp grinding alone would not be profitable if the warzone was in flux.

Guess only trouble is that bottlenecks could actually benefit the loosing side. Or you'd get speculators keeping constellations vulnerable to manipulate supply and demand. Actually that would be fun anyway and cause some intra militia strife.