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Stop using ship or weapon popularity for any balancing related topics.

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CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
#21 - 2013-08-19 15:18:39 UTC
Moving from Features & Ideas to General Discussion.

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Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2013-08-19 15:33:30 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Their braisn, eft or some similar fitting tool and extensive testing.

they already do this. you quoted one instance of one dev commenting on the popularity of one ship. this doesn't mean they're balancing only on popularity. sorry you're upset about the vaga.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#23 - 2013-08-19 16:06:18 UTC
OMG! CCP looks at statistics!

Stop it right now because I just know you're doing it wrong!

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#24 - 2013-08-19 23:42:24 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Their braisn, eft or some similar fitting tool and extensive testing.

they already do this. you quoted one instance of one dev commenting on the popularity of one ship. this doesn't mean they're balancing only on popularity. sorry you're upset about the vaga.

Wasn't that the ship with wings?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#25 - 2013-08-19 23:57:59 UTC
Anyone complaining about homogenization has obviously never experienced the "FC, can I bring my Drake" era.
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#26 - 2013-08-20 00:09:05 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
Anyone complaining about homogenization has obviously never experienced the "FC, can I bring my Drake" era.


Funny you mentioned Drake because it was nerfed purely on the popularity it had as the go to fleet Ops sub cap. Much like all Nerfs, they failed to control blobbing because the problem is and always has been the primary alpha system in EVE.

The reason nerfing popularity isn't working, the reason it never will. No ship in this game, none, was designed to have 200 people locking it.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Grauth Thorner
Vicious Trading Company
#27 - 2013-08-20 00:14:10 UTC
TheBlueMonkey wrote:
TBH it should be rock, paper, scissor balancing. Even if you base that on popularity.

Every system should have an ideal counter to that system and people should realise that.

Say you're roaming around in an armor brawler gang and you run into a shield sniping gang.
If they have some long points in the shield gang and the armor gang tries to fight, they're going to lose.
This doesn't make the shield gang overpowered. It makes it a fight that the armor gang should withdraw from.

This is exactly how it should be, and yes... Popularity should be taken into consideration when changes are planned. But just like someone else stated, don't mess up taking something into consideration with using that one and only type of data...

View real-time damage statistics in-game

>EVE Live DPS Graph application forum thread

>iciclesoft.com
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-08-20 00:15:47 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Their braisn, eft or some similar fitting tool and extensive testing.

they already do this. you quoted one instance of one dev commenting on the popularity of one ship. this doesn't mean they're balancing only on popularity. sorry you're upset about the vaga.

Wasn't that the ship with wings?

they took the wings.


they took the m-fkin wings for ****'s sake.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#29 - 2013-08-20 00:16:01 UTC
Can I bring my drone assist armor tanked ship

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2013-08-20 00:19:25 UTC
Ioci wrote:
EI Digin wrote:
Anyone complaining about homogenization has obviously never experienced the "FC, can I bring my Drake" era.


Funny you mentioned Drake because it was nerfed purely on the popularity it had as the go to fleet Ops sub cap. Much like all Nerfs, they failed to control blobbing because the problem is and always has been the primary alpha system in EVE.

The reason nerfing popularity isn't working, the reason it never will. No ship in this game, none, was designed to have 200 people locking it.


This is exactly what i mean, drakes and hmls were nerfed due to popularity not due to opness.


Also ccp usually makes the mistake of over nerfing stuff. What happens is that they take a look at the ship and decide that it is to strong as it is (sometimes they are right), then they nerf it. What they then do is usually buff everything else and dont touch the nerfed ship. In the new meta the old version would have been not op at all, yet the new one is up.

Happened to the phantasm for example (was too good got nerfed all other pirate cruisers go a buff, now its crap), same happened with the cane and the drake. And of course the dramiel (was op, then was good, then everything else got buffed, now its crap) and the rifter (altho that was just ignored).
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#31 - 2013-08-20 00:20:24 UTC
TheBlueMonkey wrote:
TBH it should be rock, paper, scissor balancing. Even if you base that on popularity.

Every system should have an ideal counter to that system and people should realise that.

Say you're roaming around in an armor brawler gang and you run into a shield sniping gang.
If they have some long points in the shield gang and the armor gang tries to fight, they're going to lose.
This doesn't make the shield gang overpowered. It makes it a fight that the armor gang should withdraw from.


Because what Eve needs is less dynamic PVP?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#32 - 2013-08-20 00:20:49 UTC
We overused rifters. Sorry about that.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#33 - 2013-08-20 00:24:24 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
We overused rifters. Sorry about that.


I'm so glad that fugly thing is dead. Nerf megathrons next please.
Grauth Thorner
Vicious Trading Company
#34 - 2013-08-20 00:31:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Grauth Thorner
S Byerley wrote:
TheBlueMonkey wrote:
TBH it should be rock, paper, scissor balancing. Even if you base that on popularity.

Every system should have an ideal counter to that system and people should realise that.

Say you're roaming around in an armor brawler gang and you run into a shield sniping gang.
If they have some long points in the shield gang and the armor gang tries to fight, they're going to lose.
This doesn't make the shield gang overpowered. It makes it a fight that the armor gang should withdraw from.


Because what Eve needs is less dynamic PVP?

It doesn't make PvP less dynamic, it's not like every ship should only have one ship to be strong against, one ship to be weak against and one ship to be equal against (or switch the word ship for tactic if you would). It means that every ship should have about the equal amount of ships it's strong against, weak against and equal against. This also doesn't mean that each ship can only be used for one tactic, it can be used for multiple tactics but as long as the chosen tactic is one of the tactics the ship is designed for, then the amounts stated above should be more or less the same

View real-time damage statistics in-game

>EVE Live DPS Graph application forum thread

>iciclesoft.com
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-08-20 00:36:07 UTC
Ioci wrote:
EI Digin wrote:
Anyone complaining about homogenization has obviously never experienced the "FC, can I bring my Drake" era.


Funny you mentioned Drake because it was nerfed purely on the popularity it had as the go to fleet Ops sub cap. Much like all Nerfs, they failed to control blobbing because the problem is and always has been the primary alpha system in EVE.

The reason nerfing popularity isn't working, the reason it never will. No ship in this game, none, was designed to have 200 people locking it.

It made an easy goto as far as cost, training ease and effect. Apparently offering too much in CCP's opinion. What I don't understand is the reasoning that a nerf to the drake was ever intended to break up the blob. No stat change on a ship can ever counter the fact that n+1 > n all other things being equal.
Invisusira
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#36 - 2013-08-20 00:36:10 UTC
Liam Inkuras wrote:
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
Vagabond is so popular because its unique, lets Face it, the Main Problem is Most ships are just dull and average because they cant do anything special.

Look into the Command Ship Thead they all the same, same Bonuses, same Slots, same EHP, the only differents are the weapons.
Thats the Problem with balancing it ruins the uniquiness for the sake of the Community, because all the whiners want their cheese.

I agree with this. Stop homogenizing EvE!

Homogenizing is what killed WoW. One thing I always liked about EVE was that the ships were never totally in balance with each other, by design, and that was just How It Is.

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S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#37 - 2013-08-20 00:38:15 UTC
Grauth Thorner wrote:
It doesn't make PvP less dynamic, it's not like every ship should only have one ship to be strong against, one ship to be weak against and one ship to be equal against (or switch the word ship for tactic if you would). It means that every ship should have about the equal amount of ships it's strong against, weak against and equal against. This also doesn't mean that each ship can only be used for one tactic, it can be used for multiple tactics but as long as the chosen tactic is one of the tactics the ship is designed for, then the amount stated above should be more or less the same


The point was that pre-determined outcomes make for less frequent and boring PVP. I mean, your example had the first fleet warping off because there was nothing they could do.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2013-08-20 00:46:47 UTC
Invisusira wrote:
Liam Inkuras wrote:
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
Vagabond is so popular because its unique, lets Face it, the Main Problem is Most ships are just dull and average because they cant do anything special.

Look into the Command Ship Thead they all the same, same Bonuses, same Slots, same EHP, the only differents are the weapons.
Thats the Problem with balancing it ruins the uniquiness for the sake of the Community, because all the whiners want their cheese.

I agree with this. Stop homogenizing EvE!

Homogenizing is what killed WoW. One thing I always liked about EVE was that the ships were never totally in balance with each other, by design, and that was just How It Is.
Exactly, there all the same, unless you count the parts that are different, which apparently some of us don't. What was the great difference that people are referring to being lost that isn't there now?
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#39 - 2013-08-20 00:51:47 UTC
Sure it might be effective to chase the flavour of the month, but isnt it more fun to just play what you want to play?
Freakdevil
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2013-08-20 00:54:53 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
Anyone complaining about homogenization has obviously never experienced the "FC, can I bring my Drake" era.



hehe, it was only once. well ok maybe twice. P


So whats this talk about the Vagabond?

Let me guess they are removing the guns and turning it into a high speed blockade runner... hahaha... would serve us right.
I still miss the days of the 10-15K Vagas. Oh man chasing them was so hillarious.