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Gunnery vs Missile vs Spaceship skills / Gunnery skills need a fix
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Theodore Giumbix
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-08-17 17:08:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Theodore Giumbix
With "THE GREAT SHIP SKILL CHANGES OF SUMMER 2013" quote "All tech 2 ships requiring skill training conditions from other tech 2 ships will be cut." because quote " they should be related to the field you are specializing into and not push you into hulls you are not interested in."

But if we compare Gunnery skills vs Missile skills, the above concept seems to apply only to missile skills.

If for example I want to train for a Cerberus with T2 HML, now I only need "Caldari Frigate" and "Caldari Destroyer" L3, then I can start training for "Caldari Cruiser" L5. For T2 MHL I only need "Light Missile" L3 and "Missile Launcher Operation" L4 to start training for "Heavy Missiles" L5.

If I want to train for an Eagle with T2 railguns, for those T2 railguns I have to train "Gunnery" L3, "Sharpshooter" L4 AND "Small Hybrid Turret" L5 with railgun spec L4 in order to be able to train "Medium Hybrid Turret" L5 and it's spec.

It gets even worse if I try to compare the time needed for training T2 cruise for a Raven vs training T2 hybrids for a Rokh.

Skill group name changes is nice and useful indeed, but this needs a better attention I think.

Yo, New Eden, got capsuleers in da house. What's up? And their pimped rides. Yo, capsuleer, if ya want me to unpimp your ride, lemme hear ya say Wat?
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#2 - 2013-08-17 17:24:55 UTC
CCP's inconsistency annoys me too...

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#3 - 2013-08-17 17:31:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Theodore Giumbix wrote:
With "THE GREAT SHIP SKILL CHANGES OF SUMMER 2013" quote "All tech 2 ships requiring skill training conditions from other tech 2 ships will be cut." because quote " they should be related to the field you are specializing into and not push you into hulls you are not interested in."

But if we compare Gunnery skills vs Missile skills, the above concept seems to apply only to missile skills.

If for example I want to train for a Cerberus with T2 HML, now I only need "Caldari Frigate" and "Caldari Destroyer" L3, then I can start training for "Caldari Cruiser" L5. For T2 MHL I only need "Light Missile" L3 and "Missile Launcher Operation" L4 to start training for "Heavy Missiles" L5.

If I want to train for an Eagle with T2 railguns, for those T2 railguns I have to train "Gunnery" L3, "Sharpshooter" L4 AND "Small Hybrid Turret" L5 with railgun spec L4 in order to be able to train "Medium Hybrid Turret" L5 and it's spec.

It gets even worse if I try to compare the time needed for training T2 cruise for a Raven vs training T2 hybrids for a Rokh.

Skill group name changes is nice and useful indeed, but this needs a better attention I think.

Yup, but then they'll have to split Weapon skills (Energy turrets, Hybrid turrets, Projectile turrets) of all sizes to short and long range skills:
small/med/large projectile turrets => small/med/large autocannon turret + small/med/large artillery turret
small/med/large energy turrets => small/med/large pulse energy turret + small/med/large beam energy turret
small/med/large hybrid turrets => small/med/large blaster turret + small/med/large railgun turret
to make them like missile skills.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Theodore Giumbix
Doomheim
#4 - 2013-08-17 17:43:48 UTC
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Yup, but then they'll have to split Weapon skills (Energy turrets, Hybrid turrets, Projectile turrets) of all sizes to short and long range skills:
small/med/large projectile turrets => small/med/large autocannon turret + small/med/large artillery turret
small/med/large energy turrets => small/med/large pulse energy turret + small/med/large beam energy turret
small/med/large hybrid turrets => small/med/large blaster turret + small/med/large railgun turret
to make them like missile skills.


That has nothing to do with this because the total amount of SP won't change. But the fact that u need ~1 month to train for a raven with T2 cruise and ~3 months to train for a Rokh with T2 hybrids, this should change. And because you should not be forced to specialize in small guns to be able to use medium guns, like u are not forced to specialize in assault frigs to be able to train HACs anymore.

Yo, New Eden, got capsuleers in da house. What's up? And their pimped rides. Yo, capsuleer, if ya want me to unpimp your ride, lemme hear ya say Wat?
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#5 - 2013-08-17 18:13:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Theodore Giumbix wrote:
That has nothing to do with this because the total amount of SP won't change. But the fact that u need ~1 month to train for a raven with T2 cruise and ~3 months to train for a Rokh with T2 hybrids, this should change. And because you should not be forced to specialize in small guns to be able to use medium guns, like u are not forced to specialize in assault frigs to be able to train HACs anymore.

True, but you learn to use both close and long range weapons for same SP as missile users learn only 1 type. If you want to specialize like them - learn skills like them too. Anyway you are comparing apples and oranges. Missiles are better at specialization, turrets are better at cross training.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Cade Windstalker
#6 - 2013-08-17 18:20:21 UTC
Theodore Giumbix wrote:
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Yup, but then they'll have to split Weapon skills (Energy turrets, Hybrid turrets, Projectile turrets) of all sizes to short and long range skills:
small/med/large projectile turrets => small/med/large autocannon turret + small/med/large artillery turret
small/med/large energy turrets => small/med/large pulse energy turret + small/med/large beam energy turret
small/med/large hybrid turrets => small/med/large blaster turret + small/med/large railgun turret
to make them like missile skills.


That has nothing to do with this because the total amount of SP won't change. But the fact that u need ~1 month to train for a raven with T2 cruise and ~3 months to train for a Rokh with T2 hybrids, this should change. And because you should not be forced to specialize in small guns to be able to use medium guns, like u are not forced to specialize in assault frigs to be able to train HACs anymore.


Actually this would likely increase the overall train time to be able to use both T2 short and long range guns of a given type. From a design perspective this is less about "inconsistency" between ship and weapon skill requirements and more about how large and where CCP want the barriers to entry to be for various weapon systems.

If you start looking at just the T1 weapon systems things are a lot more even between missiles and guns with T1 Large requiring 6 days and change and Cruise Missiles also requiring an almost identical amount of time. Torpedoes are something of an outlier at just under 2 days but that's probably fine since Torpedoes are one of the least versatile weapon systems in the game, just ask anyone who went out to try and one-shot belt-rats with them as a newbie. lol

It's also worth noting that if you want to train into multiple T2 Gunnery weapon systems you can cut almost 1/5th off the train for the second weapon system where as missiles are completely unrelated to other weapons.

It's not necessarily a bad thing for there to be differences in investment requirements between missiles and guns, they're pretty different weapon systems, and comparing completely different ship classes with unrelated functions being required to fly, say, Command Ships, is rather different than requiring small guns to use medium ones. That's no different than requiring frigates and destroyers to fly cruisers.
Theodore Giumbix
Doomheim
#7 - 2013-08-17 18:55:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Theodore Giumbix
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Actually this would likely increase the overall train time to be able to use both T2 short and long range guns of a given type. From a design perspective this is less about "inconsistency" between ship and weapon skill requirements and more about how large and where CCP want the barriers to entry to be for various weapon systems..

Let's agree to disagree. The overall train time own't change if the SP points won't change. Requiring frigs and destroyers to fly cruisers is "normal" and OK, as long as that requirement is L3. Requiring L5 frig to be able to fly a destroyer, and L5 destroyer to be able to fly a cruiser wouldn't be OK.
Same for guns. requiring L3 or L4 small hybrids to be able to use T2 medium hybrids would be OK, but not requiring L5 small hybrids and L4 spec to be able to use T2 medium hybrids.

I think spec requirement should be removed and L5 requirement for small hybrids should be changed to L3 or L4 In order to train T2 medium hybrids. Same for the rest. No SP or overall training time changes. AKA using the same concept mentioned in first post in Gunnery skills as it is used in Missile skills and Spaceships Command skills.

Yo, New Eden, got capsuleers in da house. What's up? And their pimped rides. Yo, capsuleer, if ya want me to unpimp your ride, lemme hear ya say Wat?
Theodore Giumbix
Doomheim
#8 - 2013-08-18 20:17:34 UTC
this thread needs more love. i know vets may not care about this that much anymore, but for newbies it would be a good change.

Yo, New Eden, got capsuleers in da house. What's up? And their pimped rides. Yo, capsuleer, if ya want me to unpimp your ride, lemme hear ya say Wat?
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#9 - 2013-08-18 21:08:14 UTC
Theodore Giumbix wrote:
this thread needs more love. i know vets may not care about this that much anymore, but for newbies it would be a good change.


This is a very tired, very old argument that always comes down to the same few things. First, the training time isn't all that far off. Missile supports have higher ranks than gunnery supports. Gunnery gets you both long and short range on the base skill; missiles don't. On the other hand, you can train directly into T2 missiles while T2 guns are inherited by size. Different systems, same overall result.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-08-18 22:17:48 UTC
Yeah, the missile skill tree is considerably longer than each turret tree. But in exchange, you can start the missile tree at different points. A classic case of different but balanced.
Cade Windstalker
#11 - 2013-08-19 00:02:18 UTC
Theodore Giumbix wrote:
Let's agree to disagree. The overall train time own't change if the SP points won't change. Requiring frigs and destroyers to fly cruisers is "normal" and OK, as long as that requirement is L3. Requiring L5 frig to be able to fly a destroyer, and L5 destroyer to be able to fly a cruiser wouldn't be OK.
Same for guns. requiring L3 or L4 small hybrids to be able to use T2 medium hybrids would be OK, but not requiring L5 small hybrids and L4 spec to be able to use T2 medium hybrids.

I think spec requirement should be removed and L5 requirement for small hybrids should be changed to L3 or L4 In order to train T2 medium hybrids. Same for the rest. No SP or overall training time changes. AKA using the same concept mentioned in first post in Gunnery skills as it is used in Missile skills and Spaceships Command skills.


This isn't like requiring Frigates 5 to fly Destroyers though, it's like requiring Frigates 5, Engineering 5, Mechanics 5, and Spaceship Command 3 to get into Assault Frigates. There are similarly lengthy requirements for most T2 ship hulls. They changed requiring unrelated ship types to get into them but not the overall train time.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#12 - 2013-08-19 00:13:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Theodore Giumbix wrote:
this thread needs more love. i know vets may not care about this that much anymore, but for newbies it would be a good change.



how so?


Up to mediums they make out pretty good.


Poof, I make weapons the same.


Lets have a noob minmatar pilot. Lets make em jsut like missile users. They want arty wolf. replace 5 days to small turrets 5 to about 10 days to small artillery 5 (lights are about 10 days to train....so being fair I am keeping that constant). Now they want AC wolf. 5 more days to small ac turrets. Gratz, you have replaced a 5 day all in one turret train with 15.


They hit cruisers. AC vaga is 14 days, arty muninn is 14 days. 28 days to get where 14 used to work jsut fine.


But but the support skills......lets be realistic here. Guns have higher support requirements, yes. But firing guns without them is a tard move even if not needed. CCP is being cruel but kind. You need these skills to not waste ammo.

Missile users do not make out here not needing them for the weapons. CCP may not say train these supports, but if the missile chucker does not want to waste his time they train them anyway . A baseline drake, bomber, raven, etc is crap. They already fight a missile damage calculation that is working against them. The lower their support skills, the more it fights them.

Nor do missile users make out on skipping weapons systems. they will not always be in drakes (unless they are sad people who like no variety at any rate). If they powere levelled to them, well then good for them. A couple peeps say wtf, frigate roam form up, x up if you want some of this fun.

There is our drake pilot going damn I'd like to go...but I skipped small weapons mastery. Drake power train is now biting them in them ass. Why in time our missile chucker learns everything. CCP doesn't force feed, playing the game and not flying 1 ship the rest of your life does however.

New gun players may not see the value of this off the bat. They will monthd down the road when after 2 months of straight pos bashing they will jump in a frigate or cruiser in a heartbeat. And can. I did 2 months of straight bashop in a BS...sucks ass tbh.

Basically, it all comes out in the wash. Voluntarily or involuntarily....we all get high amounts of sp we aren't thrilled about training.
m3talc0re X
The Motley Crew of Disorder
The Gorram Shiney Alliance
#13 - 2013-08-19 00:15:33 UTC
You got it backwards. Missiles should be tiered like guns.
T2 lights > T2 heavies > T2 cruise
T2 rockets > T2 hams > T2 torps

New players already like getting into **** they're not ready for, you don't need to make it even easier..
Cade Windstalker
#14 - 2013-08-19 00:54:22 UTC
m3talc0re X wrote:
You got it backwards. Missiles should be tiered like guns.
T2 lights > T2 heavies > T2 cruise
T2 rockets > T2 hams > T2 torps

New players already like getting into **** they're not ready for, you don't need to make it even easier..


In fairness to the OP, tiering stuff doesn't prevent this, it just means they've spent more time doing it Roll

If you want to encourage good missile supports then get CCP to make a low or mid-slot mod that acts like a Tracking Computer for missiles (boosts damage application stats rather than boosting damage) and make the T2 version require the relevant support to 5.
Theodore Giumbix
Doomheim
#15 - 2013-08-19 13:42:55 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
Nor do missile users make out on skipping weapons systems. they will not always be in drakes (unless they are sad people who like no variety at any rate). If they powere levelled to them, well then good for them. A couple peeps say wtf, frigate roam form up, x up if you want some of this fun.

There is our drake pilot going damn I'd like to go...but I skipped small weapons mastery. Drake power train is now biting them in them ass. Why in time our missile chucker learns everything. CCP doesn't force feed, playing the game and not flying 1 ship the rest of your life does however.

I think u missed my point.

Your are right here from your point of view, but with Odyssey patch there is an inconsistency now not only between Gunnery vs Missiles but between Frigs and Cruisers as well. It doesn't make any sense that you don't need T2 Frigs in order to fly T2 Cruisers, but you need T2 Small guns in order to use T2 Medium Guns.

And to combat your arguments, as a newbie you need ISK, and you don't really make ISK in Small / Medium boats. Training for T2 Small / Medium Guns when you first need T2 Large Guns is a "waste of time". The fact that as a newbie u can train directly for T2 BS Launchers but you can't train directly for T2 BS Guns seems imbalanced. As for PVP, Frig PVP is fun indeed, but nobody will accept you in a 0.0 alliance just because you have perfect T2 Frigs / Small Guns skills, if you can't fly a T2 fit BS (since many 0.0 pvpers have scouting/probing alts alrdy and thanks to multiboxing!), while if you can fly a T2 fit BS you have a better chance joining a decent alliance even if you can't fly T2 fit Frigs.

I think the same concept applied for T2 ships (see first post) should be applied to T2 guns too.

Yo, New Eden, got capsuleers in da house. What's up? And their pimped rides. Yo, capsuleer, if ya want me to unpimp your ride, lemme hear ya say Wat?
Theodore Giumbix
Doomheim
#16 - 2013-08-19 13:50:48 UTC
And to add 1 more good argument, now with the split of Destroyers/Battlecruisers this change would make even more sense, since you may wanna train Small Guns for one race, Medium Guns for other race and Large Guns for a third race. You can do this with Ships, but not with Guns. Doesn't make sense !!

Yo, New Eden, got capsuleers in da house. What's up? And their pimped rides. Yo, capsuleer, if ya want me to unpimp your ride, lemme hear ya say Wat?
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#17 - 2013-08-19 16:30:15 UTC
Theodore Giumbix wrote:
And to add 1 more good argument, now with the split of Destroyers/Battlecruisers this change would make even more sense, since you may wanna train Small Guns for one race, Medium Guns for other race and Large Guns for a third race. You can do this with Ships, but not with Guns. Doesn't make sense !!


You're going to have to make a better case than that. I see sense in it. What seems to be eluding you? Where is this alleged lack of sense? Why exactly do ships, guns, and missiles all have to follow exactly the same progression scheme?
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#18 - 2013-08-19 20:40:29 UTC
Theodore Giumbix wrote:
Zan Shiro wrote:
Nor do missile users make out on skipping weapons systems. they will not always be in drakes (unless they are sad people who like no variety at any rate). If they powere levelled to them, well then good for them. A couple peeps say wtf, frigate roam form up, x up if you want some of this fun.

There is our drake pilot going damn I'd like to go...but I skipped small weapons mastery. Drake power train is now biting them in them ass. Why in time our missile chucker learns everything. CCP doesn't force feed, playing the game and not flying 1 ship the rest of your life does however.

I think u missed my point.

Your are right here from your point of view, but with Odyssey patch there is an inconsistency now not only between Gunnery vs Missiles but between Frigs and Cruisers as well. It doesn't make any sense that you don't need T2 Frigs in order to fly T2 Cruisers, but you need T2 Small guns in order to use T2 Medium Guns.

And to combat your arguments, as a newbie you need ISK, and you don't really make ISK in Small / Medium boats. Training for T2 Small / Medium Guns when you first need T2 Large Guns is a "waste of time". The fact that as a newbie u can train directly for T2 BS Launchers but you can't train directly for T2 BS Guns seems imbalanced. As for PVP, Frig PVP is fun indeed, but nobody will accept you in a 0.0 alliance just because you have perfect T2 Frigs / Small Guns skills, if you can't fly a T2 fit BS (since many 0.0 pvpers have scouting/probing alts alrdy and thanks to multiboxing!), while if you can fly a T2 fit BS you have a better chance joining a decent alliance even if you can't fly T2 fit Frigs.

I think the same concept applied for T2 ships (see first post) should be applied to T2 guns too.


The idea that 0.0 alliances do not want pilots who can't fly BS is idiotic at best. Frig pilots are invaluable to BS fleets as tackle, and scouts.
Veldaran
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-08-19 20:50:13 UTC
This has been brought up from the other side of the argument as well:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=253106

(A repost of my ideas from that thread if you can't be bothered to click the link)

Missile training needs to shift towards the Gunnery progression path while simultaneously segmenting the S/M/L Specialization paths for both to support the new changes to ship skills.

MISSILE LAUNCHERS:

Missile Bombardment
REQUIRES: Missile Launcher Operation II

Small Missile Launcher (replaces Rockets + Light Missiles)
REQUIRES: Missile Launcher Operation I

Rocket Specialization
REQUIRES: Small Missile Launcher V + Target Navigation Prediction III

Light Missile Specialization
REQUIRES: Small Missile Launcher V + Missile Bombardment III


Medium Missile Launcher (replaces Heavy Assault Missiles + Heavy Missiles)
REQUIRES: Missile Launcher Operation III + Small Missile Launcher III

Assault Missile Specialization (replaces Heavy Assault Missile Specialization)
REQUIRES: Medium Missile Launcher V + Target Navigation Prediction IV

Heavy Missile Specialization
REQUIRES: Medium Missile Launcher V + Missile Bombardment IV


Large Missile Launcher (replaces Torpedoes + Cruise Missiles)
REQUIRES: Missile Launcher Operation V + Medium Missile Launcher III

Torpedo Specialization
REQUIRES: Large Missile Launcher V + Target Navigation Prediction V

Cruise Missile Specialization
REQUIRES: Large Missile Launcher V + Missile Bombardment V

T2 short range Missile Launchers (Rockets/HAMs/Torps) require Target Navigation Prediction (target velocity) to match Motion Prediction (tracking speed) for short range Turrets (Pulse/Blaster/Autocannon).

T2 long range Missile Launchers (Light/Heavy/Cruise) require Missile Bombardment (flight time) to match Sharpshooting (optimal range) for long range Turrets (Beam/Railgun/Artillery).


Capital Missile Launcher (replaces Citadel Torpedoes + Citadel Cruise Missiles)
REQUIRES: Missile Launcher Operation V + Large Missile Launcher V

Launcher Upgrades (replaces Weapon Upgrades for Missile Launchers)
REQUIRES: Missile Launcher Operation II

Advanced Launcher Upgrades (replaces Advanced Weapon Upgrades for Missile Launchers)
REQUIRES: Launcher Upgrades V + Missile Launcher Operation IV

Brings Capital Missile Launchers in line with Capital Turrets and splits (Advanced) Weapon Upgrades into separate Missile/Turret version.


ENERGY/HYBRID/PROJECTILE TURRETS:

Small (Pulse/Blaster/Autocannon) Specialization
REQUIRES: Small (Pulse/Blaster/Autocannon) Turret V + Motion Prediction III

Small (Beam/Railgun/Artillery) Specialization
REQUIRES: Small (Beam/Railgun/Artillery) Turret V + Sharpshooter III


Medium (Pulse/Blaster/Autocannon) Specialization
REQUIRES: Medium (Pulse/Blaster/Autocannon) Turret V + Motion Prediction IV

Medium (Beam/Railgun/Artillery) Specialization
REQUIRES: Medium (Beam/Railgun/Artillery) Turret V + Sharpshooter IV


Large (Pulse/Blaster/Autocannon) Specialization
REQUIRES: Large (Pulse/Blaster/Autocannon) Turret V + Motion Prediction V

Large (Beam/Railgun/Artillery) Specialization
REQUIRES: Large (Beam/Railgun/Artillery) Turret V + Sharpshooter V

Allows pilots to skip to the specialization that matches their ship rather than wait out earlier specializations they might never use.


Turret Upgrades (replaces Weapon Upgrades for Turrets)
REQUIRES: Gunnery II

Advanced Turret Upgrades (replaces Advanced Weapon Upgrades for Turrets)
REQUIRES: Turret Upgrades V + Gunnery IV

Turret version of (Advanced) Weapon Upgrades)


Time multipliers would likely need to be changed for some skills to equalize training times for the respective paths, but these changes match the mindset CCP has clearly adopted with regards to ship training.

Improving Site Diversity in WHs