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RMT or not yes it is RMT.
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Q 5
999 HOLDINGS LLC
#1 - 2013-08-18 19:04:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Q 5
as the popularity of Bitcoin grows a nice question remains, is trading in game items for bitcoins legally considered RMT since bitcoin is nothing more than 1's and 0's and as of yet not considered real currency can it be prosecuted?

my understanding is that Bitcoin is completely anonymous with the transactions so there may not be records whereas in the old system your transactions were trackable.

it will be very very difficult for CCP to prove RMT if bitcoin is used cause players can trade and give items away all day but if there's no records then RMT can only be suspected.

here's a nice article its in German but you can get it translated with google translate oh and it seems that the German government is now recognizing Bitcoin as a currency.

http://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/bitcoin100.html

Oh them Goonswarm leaders and their bitcoin!
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#2 - 2013-08-18 19:05:18 UTC
As I understand it trading a crate of Beer to my flatmate for a can of Ore would be considered RMT.

[center]Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. /人◕‿‿◕人\ Unban Saede![/center]
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#3 - 2013-08-18 19:56:06 UTC
The answer for you is in the very name: REAL Money.

Bitcoin is not real money.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#4 - 2013-08-18 19:59:45 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
The answer for you is in the very name: REAL Money.

Bitcoin is not real money.

Its backed by nothing but its scarecity and that it rewards people for mining it. Pity the currency isn't inflationary and backed by a number of FLOPS on a distributed network, that would be worth something to someone.

[center]Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. /人◕‿‿◕人\ Unban Saede![/center]
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#5 - 2013-08-18 20:44:09 UTC
Germany aren't alone in saying it's real money, it's considered cash in the US as well. Personally I'd play it safe, they kind of cover virtual currency in the EULA anyway.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#6 - 2013-08-18 20:53:07 UTC
Q 5 wrote:
as the popularity of Bitcoin grows a nice question remains, is trading in game items for bitcoins legally considered RMT since bitcoin is nothing more than 1's and 0's and as of yet not considered real currency can it be prosecuted?

my understanding is that Bitcoin is completely anonymous with the transactions so there may not be records whereas in the old system your transactions were trackable.

it will be very very difficult for CCP to prove RMT if bitcoin is used cause players can trade and give items away all day but if there's no records then RMT can only be suspected.

here's a nice article its in German but you can get it translated with google translate oh and it seems that the German government is now recognizing Bitcoin as a currency.

http://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/bitcoin100.html

Oh them Goonswarm leaders and their bitcoin!




The EULA clearly states that you can't transfer, sell nor auction game content of any kind.

EVE's EULA wrote:
B. Selling Items and Objects

You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions, newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Q 5
999 HOLDINGS LLC
#7 - 2013-08-18 20:59:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Q 5
I agree that the EULA does say it's against the rules but say I wanted to trade a ship for a digital document what then?
Trading 1's and 0's isn't against the law because it's not something tangible rather it is an ideal of something no?

So say if I have very valuable information on a corp, that another corp seeks and I wish to sell it to them for isk and that document was created with the notes we have as part of the game then is that wrong?
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#8 - 2013-08-18 22:03:46 UTC
Q 5 wrote:
I agree that the EULA does say it's against the rules but say I wanted to trade a ship for a digital document what then?
Trading 1's and 0's isn't against the law because it's not something tangible rather it is an ideal of something no?

So say if I have very valuable information on a corp, that another corp seeks and I wish to sell it to them for isk and that document was created with the notes we have as part of the game then is that wrong?

Whats your opinion on a series of 1's and 0's that compile into video? Or even highly illegal and immoral video that the censor will rightly remove that we both know I am leading it toward.

[center]Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. /人◕‿‿◕人\ Unban Saede![/center]
Q 5
999 HOLDINGS LLC
#9 - 2013-08-18 22:20:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Q 5
RMT is encouraged by all the nerfs CCP has been doing people find it hard to earn the isk in game when they nerf for the sake of crying nullies saying hi sec is the problem.
sure gets the isk devalued but also makes things cost cheap, but then there's that annoying thing, (CCP) loses revenue because of people not buying plex.

In the end it's a balancing act, but nerfing sht isn't an answer.

In the end we all lose cause of devs will just nerf everything to death without letting people enjoy the items they have.

How do you think I feel wasting time and isk only to have T3's nerfed, waste of time, I wish devs would let us allocate those SP to other useful skills now that T3's will be turned to sht.
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#10 - 2013-08-19 00:03:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Q 5 wrote:
RMT is encouraged by all the nerfs CCP has been doing

Seriously?
With ISK getting easier and easier to obtain on average nearly constantly, you complain about nerfs to the most egregiously offending activities?

Q 5 wrote:
I agree that the EULA does say it's against the rules but say I wanted to trade a ship for a digital document what then?
Trading 1's and 0's isn't against the law because it's not something tangible rather it is an ideal of something no?
So say if I have very valuable information on a corp, that another corp seeks and I wish to sell it to them for isk and that document was created with the notes we have as part of the game then is that wrong?

I don't say this often, but this time, it's way overdue: dude, you sound like an ill-informed fool, so I hope for your sake you're either being intentionally dense or actually not aware of previous official clarifications from CCP.

The one and only directive as far as CCP is concerned is to NOT allow people to "earn a living" (or supplement their living standards) as a cling-on leech to the game of EVE, sucking away enjoyment from other players. And before you ask, selling stuff for cash (or bitcoins, or beer) does do that, even if for some revenue streams it's not exactly obvious how.
If you manage to do it in some way that doesn't make the game experience worse for any others but instead better for everybody, good for you, you're probably allowed to do it, but better check first just in case.
So, for instance, if you provide some out-of-game game-related services which enhance the gameplay experience, you are not disallowed to earn some cash for it in certain circumstances, usually through web adds on your site, but sometimes also direct cash purchases. You would also be allowed to charge in-game ISK for it if you wish.
And that's what's certainly allowed.

You are NOT allowed to obtain any out-of-this-game material or financial benefit as a result of an exchange of in-game goods of any kind.
And that also covers bitcoin, any other real-life virtual currency or currency equivalents, and it even covers virtual goods or currencies from other games that do not belong to CCP.
So, for instance, you would not be allowed to trade EVE ISK for WoW gold, even if Blizzard would start allowing it.

Exchange of in-EVE "services" for out-of-EVE benefits is still in a grey area.
So, for instance, I'm sure that if you're some obsessed guy who wants to hire a bunch of RL people to join his alliance and fight for him, that is still borderline arguably not-yet-punishable.
If enough people would start doing it, eventually CCP will come down on it and will also specifically disallow it.

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
Jayem See
Perkone
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-08-19 02:38:31 UTC
Akita T wrote:
Q 5 wrote:
RMT is encouraged by all the nerfs CCP has been doing

Seriously?
With ISK getting easier and easier to obtain on average nearly constantly, you complain about nerfs to the most egregiously offending activities?

Q 5 wrote:
I agree that the EULA does say it's against the rules but say I wanted to trade a ship for a digital document what then?
Trading 1's and 0's isn't against the law because it's not something tangible rather it is an ideal of something no?
So say if I have very valuable information on a corp, that another corp seeks and I wish to sell it to them for isk and that document was created with the notes we have as part of the game then is that wrong?

I don't say this often, but this time, it's way overdue: dude, you sound like an ill-informed fool, so I hope for your sake you're either being intentionally dense or actually not aware of previous official clarifications from CCP.

The one and only directive as far as CCP is concerned is to NOT allow people to "earn a living" (or supplement their living standards) as a cling-on leech to the game of EVE, sucking away enjoyment from other players. And before you ask, selling stuff for cash (or bitcoins, or beer) does do that, even if for some revenue streams it's not exactly obvious how.
If you manage to do it in some way that doesn't make the game experience worse for any others but instead better for everybody, good for you, you're probably allowed to do it, but better check first just in case.
So, for instance, if you provide some out-of-game game-related services which enhance the gameplay experience, you are not disallowed to earn some cash for it in certain circumstances, usually through web adds on your site, but sometimes also direct cash purchases. You would also be allowed to charge in-game ISK for it if you wish.
And that's what's certainly allowed.

You are NOT allowed to obtain any out-of-this-game material or financial benefit as a result of an exchange of in-game goods of any kind.
And that also covers bitcoin, any other real-life virtual currency or currency equivalents, and it even covers virtual goods or currencies from other games that do not belong to CCP.
So, for instance, you would not be allowed to trade EVE ISK for WoW gold, even if Blizzard would start allowing it.

Exchange of in-EVE "services" for out-of-EVE benefits is still in a grey area.
So, for instance, I'm sure that if you're some obsessed guy who wants to hire a bunch of RL people to join his alliance and fight for him, that is still borderline arguably not-yet-punishable.
If enough people would start doing it, eventually CCP will come down on it and will also specifically disallow it.


**COUGH**

Bitchslap

Aaaaaaand relax.
Inokuma Yawara
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-08-19 04:52:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Inokuma Yawara
I read a Forbes magazine (online) article about it. My understanding is that it has cash value. You can actually buy stuff with it at many online retailers, and some brick and mortar places are accepting it as payment as well - although how the transaction was processed was unclear to me. According to the Forbes article, it can be exchanged for physical, traditional currency, but the exchange rate fluctuates widely.

The article insinuated that it is becoming the favorite currency of criminal transactions, because it is untraceable. Arms dealers, narcotics traffickers, money launderers, all seem to have found an affinity for the bitcoin virtual cash - because it CAN be exchanged for physical cash.

Therefore, I believe that CCP could find that trading bitcoins for ISK is the same as trading dollars, yen, pounds, ISK etc for ISK.

Watch this space.  New exciting signature in development.
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#13 - 2013-08-19 11:59:16 UTC
Inokuma Yawara wrote:
how the transaction was processed was unclear to me

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/05/09/25-things-i-learned-about-bitcoin-from-living-on-it-for-a-week/
Quote:
12. In-person Bitcoin purchases rely heavily on QR codes. I’ve never seen so many people actually using QR codes.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.schildbach.wallet&hl=en
Quote:
With this app you always have your Bitcoins with you, in your pocket! You can send payments simply by scanning a QR-code or by touching two phones together (NFC). Bitcoin Wallet is designed to be easy to use and reliable, while also being secure and fast.

Same for iPhones or other mobile devices.

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
Whitehound
#14 - 2013-08-19 15:11:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Create a petition and ask! There is a forum rule, which prohibits such discussions. Do not get yourself into trouble over this.


21. Posting regarding RMT (Real Money Trading) is prohibited.

Posts discussing, linking to, or advertising RMT, including but not limited to the sale of in game items, assets, currency, characters or game accounts for real life money are strictly prohibited.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#15 - 2013-08-19 20:21:16 UTC
Here's a quick heuristic: If you find yourself playing Internet Legal Expert, parsing terms and weaseling apparent loopholes out of simple, clear language, then you're wrong and your effort is not going to end well.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Slade Trillgon
Brutor Force Federated
#16 - 2013-08-19 22:02:52 UTC
I just want to point out that most RL currency, if transferred via the internet, is also just 1's and 0's.... just saying

But yes, Akita covered pretty much the way I view it.
Mac Munoz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2013-08-20 17:49:20 UTC
Q 5 wrote:
I agree that the EULA does say it's against the rules but say I wanted to trade a ship for a digital document what then?
Trading 1's and 0's isn't against the law because it's not something tangible rather it is an ideal of something no?

So say if I have very valuable information on a corp, that another corp seeks and I wish to sell it to them for isk and that document was created with the notes we have as part of the game then is that wrong?


I think the biggest difference in the example quoted is you are giving intel in exchange for ISK. You aren't asking for cash. If you asked for cash that would be against the EULA.

Now if you took the ISK you made from selling intel and then converted it to cash that is a clear violation. I am not sure how this is confusing.

Bitcoins are acquired only through work from an outside party. You either performed the work yourself or you paid for the work someone else did. Either way paying for an item with a currency that isn't native to the game is clear violation.
Q 5
999 HOLDINGS LLC
#18 - 2013-08-21 02:36:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Q 5
Humm, well haven't been playing eve lately because I'm busy trying to mine bitcoin and FINALLY I got 1, bit long but atleast I can use it in the real world unlike the veld I would mine, horray for bitcoin...now I will go see what I can trade it for in RL.
Inokuma Yawara
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-08-22 06:56:24 UTC
Q 5 wrote:
Humm, well haven't been playing eve lately because I'm busy trying to mine bitcoin and FINALLY I got 1, bit long but atleast I can use it in the real world unlike the veld I would mine, horray for bitcoin...now I will go see what I can trade it for in RL.


Can prob'ly get a used AK, and a box or two of ammo for it. Prob'ly been used in some conflict somewhere's, so expect rust, carbon, and other crap to be wrong with it. Or maybe get a satchel of C4. Hey! Don't worry, bitcoin is untraceable.

*Sits back and waits for the news story of an EVE Online player that went to prison for buying a grenade with a bitcoin on Ebay.*

Watch this space.  New exciting signature in development.
Q 5
999 HOLDINGS LLC
#20 - 2013-08-22 12:53:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Q 5
Well, that won't be happening cause,

1. I already own guns through legal means.

2. There are soooo many places you can spend BC in.

3. I miss read my application, it was a fraction of the bitcoin not a whole.Sad

after much research I have concluded bitcoin is a scam but while its still in it's early stages there is money to be made and since it doesn't cost anything except computer resources and electricity why not, it's more AFK mining then eve anyway and believe it or not there is gankers in this bitcoin world too.

People have had their bitcoins stolen right out of their virtual bitcoin wallets.

Ahhh bitcoin the new place to be swindled on the WWW.

Oh and here read about how you can spend bitcoin in legitimate places,
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/05/01/living-on-bitcoin-for-a-week-the-journey-begins/
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