Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Well, progress is made. We are at least a bit closer to seeing eye to eye.
For the record I would not have any problem with the NOS amount being raised somewhat, from it's current 40% (not 30% as has been bandied about) to perhaps an even 50% vs. Neuts... and an equalization of fittings with Neuts would not go amiss.

It might have been helpful to explain to folks wondering about the above scenario that while yes a medium Neut will drain a frigate quickly (and drains more cap than the small NOS regains) the value is in their respective cycle times.

A medium T2 Neut drains (base) every 12 seconds, while a small T2 NOS drains (base) every 3 seconds. So yes the Neut drains the frigates cap momentarily, but then the frigate immediately cycles more cap in to run it's modules.

Unmodified a T2 NOS brings in 9.6 GJ cap every 3 seconds.
Unmodified a T2 Warp Scram burns 5 GJ cap every 5 seconds.
Unmodified a T2 AB burns 22 GJ cap every 10 seconds.

Of course with proper skills and fit these numbers can also be tweaked more in favor of the frigate. It's tricky, and requires a lot of micro management, but absolutely doable. While all this is going on that little NOS also keeps nibbling away at the Arbi's already significant rate of cap loss (due to it's running it's Neut).

Now under the current system it is possible for the Arby to run it's cap down to a percentage lower than the Hawk if the fight drags on. At this point the Hawks NOS no longer functions, he loses point and propulsion... meaning he either loses his target or loses his ship. (For those curious since the small NOS cycles 4 times as fast as the Neut, that's roughly 38 cap or about 12% of it's total base cap. It's very easy to run a cruiser below 12% cap left when using medium NOS.)

Under the proposed system the Arbys raw amount of cap is unlikely to ever go below that of the Hawks raw amount of cap at any point (38 cap points), if the Arby did drop that low on raw cap it would not have enough cap left to run it's Neut.

End result: A skillful Hawk pilot has the possibility of keeping tackle while Neuted and staying alive until the Arby is destroyed... which in this scenario is it's job.

Of course these numbers swing even more in favor of a tacking frigate if he is dedicated to the task and is mounting more than one small NOS, and also provides an even larger advantage for the new system over the current one.

(I think you meant "med neut" in the last line.)

The situation that you describe is impossible. The Hawk cannot simultaneously have insufficient cap to run tackle while also having a lower percentage of cap than the Arbitrator.

We know this because the small Nos is able to keep tackle running under med neuting that takes the Hawk's cap to 0%. The only time that the Nos will fail to give the cap required to run tackle is if the Arbitrator has also gone to 0% cap. At which point the Arbitrator's tackle also drops...

By the way, cap flux coils are still useless.

Currently yes, which is what I was attempting to say.

Post changes they begin to actually get to the point where they might be considered for some very specialized fits... but they still need some dev love before they become truly viable.

This is actually something of a hint for Rise and Fozzie to look at. It would be nice if the module had an interesting use in cap warfare.

Personally I'd like to see the penalty and bonuses exaggerated. The thought of a module that essentially gave you the cap pool of a smaller size vessel, but with an astonishing cap recharge rate capable of keeping your larger sized modules running, has some interesting possibilities.

People seemed to not realize that a small NOS was useful when being Neuted by a medium (or larger) Neut. I was simply explaining to the gentleman that said it would be useless that it was the key module allowing the Hawk (in his example) to do it's job and survive.

Now if the Neut stopped in the above example the Hawk could breath a lot easier of course. He wouldn't shut off the NOS obviously (it certainly doesn't cost him anything to keep it running), as even that small drain on the Arby's cap could keep in from regaining enough cap to run it's Neut again, and quite possibly some of it's other modules (prop, tank).

In effect it can help keep the Arby pinned at a cap level too low for it to make much use of. This zone where the NOS still effective is quite a bit larger under the new system, forcing the Arby to a much lower level of cap than it currently does.

Pretty much this, however I'd like to add that CCP needs to review the deadspace nos as well. Currently they have much higher fitting reqs, lower drains amounts, and longer range than t2... They simply feel broken.

I think med NOS will certainly have a role in keeping the brutix's dual tank going, since it only has 4 mid slots.

Other than that, a small NOS keeping your tackle running means the world to you if you're orbiting something big and nasty at 500m. If he gets range on you while your scram has been shut down, you're toast!

large NOS is more difficult to justify - except to keep tank alive on a battleship when fighting multiple neutralising enemies - but I'd *probably* want a medium NOS for that, for the shorter cycle time. However, I am sure there are many creative uses for it.

It seems that allot of the specific debate has ended with this thread quite a while ago. It's more or less agreed that the currently proposed change does nothing for the overall situation of nos other than nerf it when engaging smaller ships than yourself... With that being said, I'd like to do a quick proposal in terms of potential changes that I see as a modestly viable solution to many of the issues that have been brought forward in this thread. No fitting changes are included below.

Small nos: Unchanged. 3.2cap/s

Medium nos: +20% to drain amount across all meta levels. This would increase a med t2 from 36 to 43.2. Or 7.2cap/s

Heavy nos: Decrease the duration of the module by 15% across all meta levels. This would decrease the duration of a large t2 nos from 12s to 9.6s. 12.5cap/s


Dead Space : Increase the drain amount of C-type to t2 levels, increase the drain amount of B-type by +5%(of t2), and A-type by +10%(of t2). Maintain the increased fitting req and range increase as present.

A-type Small: 10.56 drain amount, 3.52 cap/s out to 10.21km
A-type Medium: 47.5 drain amount, 7.92 cap/s out to 19.5km
A-type Heavy: 132 drain amount, 13.75 cap/s out to 39km



Another solution could be to introduce a new skill that reduces the duration on all nos by 3 or 4% per level.

Let's put it this way, bhaalgorn says thanks for infinite cap against capital.

Come on, how many times do I have to explain that this is impossible? The Nossing Hawk can only lose its point if both it and the Arbitrator are at zero cap.

Yes, if the Hawk is at 20% cap and the Arbitrator is at 10% cap, then the Nos doesn't work. But so what? 20% cap is still plenty for the Hawk to run its tackle. It doesn't matter.

If the Hawk gets below 10% cap, then the Nos starts working again, and the Hawk can run its tackle off that. At the very worst, they both track down to 0% together.

For someone who claims to have so much experience in cap warfare, I'm quite distressed that you can't grasp this.

...It did that before this change as well.