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The problem with removing local

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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#41 - 2013-08-17 19:39:39 UTC
Sigras wrote:
The benefits are as follows:

1. enemy fleet composition
2. enemy fleet location
3. warp ins
4. cynos
5. threat of force

and yes I know that cynos do involve risk, but you're pretty much not going to commit to a cyno unless you're sure you have the upper hand. All of these things are uncounterable unavoidable real benefits that a cloaked ship provides with no risk to itself. Do you think that is justified?

Counters:

1. Misleading information is possible, and really quite easy. A trojan horse formation can easily use a cyno to conceal actual numbers.
2. Same as 1, the location you see may be there so it can be seen.
3. As an advantage, this is not limited to a cloaked ship so much as a ship in the right place. Cloaking makes it convenient in the right conditions, but only a previously unknown safe actually needs a live ship to mark it.
4. Cloaked ships using a cyno only happens when local verifies the conditions are right. Local also is what forces this as a tactic.
5. Threat of force is not actual force. You can get this without the cloak. What mechanic is being used to convey this effect, especially in cases where the cloaked vessel is not known AFK or not....

As to risk, passing through any well guarded gate is not to be lightly dismissed, as there are effective tactics to catch cloaked vessels.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#42 - 2013-08-18 00:16:53 UTC
The tl;dr of all your post Sigras is you don't want to take it upon yourself to keep yourself safe. You are lazy and enjoy risk-less reward. You are unwilling to take action to prevent a cloaked camper from getting the drop on you. Myself and others, all up and down this thread, have told you time and again numerous ways to keep yourself safe in a local-less environment. We are practically spelling it out to you. And yet you retort with another pointless what if scenario you could easily find a solution to with a little thought.

If a WH group can keep their space safe under risk of a random WH appearing and enemies pouring through, cloaked or not, then you can keep some space safe where you know gate the enemies must come from. Yes, there is always risk of someone being more skilled than you and evading your intel network. And they will get the drop on you and kill you. If that is such a problem for you then go back to highsec where it is safer.

You are pointing out exactly why removing local is good. It brings back skill. If the enemy pilot is skilled enough to get the drop on you then good for him. If you are skilled enough to prevent him from doing so then good for you. That is how Eve should be. Nullsec is lawless space. There is supposed to be risk involved.

Let me ask you this: Why all of the sudden under threat of local being removed are you fearing cynos, cloaked ships, roaming gangs, etc? Could it be that local provides you such perfect effortless intel that you don't fear these things now? You and I both know that it does. This goes against what nullsec was intended to be. Currently, instead of nullsec being a lawless place with risk, it is frequently safer than highsec. It is great that you are now fearing cynos, cloaked ships, roaming gangs, etc. under threat of local going away. Your avid attempts to show that a local-less nullsec is too unsafe proves that removing local will finally bring risk back to nullsec. If such a stanch carebear as yourself is finally fearing carebearing in nullsec then we know that removing local will have the desired effect of making the space less safe. I could not find a better example of the effects of removing local if I tried and here you are handing it to me... So thank you. Blink
Sigras
Conglomo
#43 - 2013-08-18 01:02:27 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
The tl;dr of all your post Sigras is you don't want to take it upon yourself to keep yourself safe. You are lazy and enjoy risk-less reward. You are unwilling to take action to prevent a cloaked camper from getting the drop on you. Myself and others, all up and down this thread, have told you time and again numerous ways to keep yourself safe in a local-less environment. We are practically spelling it out to you. And yet you retort with another pointless what if scenario you could easily find a solution to with a little thought.

What I am saying is that without local there is no way I could take it upon myself to keep myself safe. I dont live in 0.0 i hunt there, and I have the skill necessary to catch people even with local . . . perhaps its a skill you should learn.

You fail time and time again to read or comprehend what I am saying and continue to spout senseless drivel. None of the scenarios I have pointed out have been answered with anything but *derp fly with a fleet able to snipe a 200,000 EHP cyno ship derp derp*

If you are aligned out, all the cloaked ship has to do is warp at range from wherever you're aligned out to then approach you as you approach him. the time between you seeing him on your overview and him bumping you could literally be lost to lag. That does not make for a skillful game.
Aliventi wrote:
If a WH group can keep their space safe under risk of a random WH appearing and enemies pouring through, cloaked or not, then you can keep some space safe where you know gate the enemies must come from. Yes, there is always risk of someone being more skilled than you and evading your intel network. And they will get the drop on you and kill you. If that is such a problem for you then go back to highsec where it is safer.

When you successfully launch a cyno in WH space come and talk to me. That is the difference; saying "go ratting in groups" actually is a reasonable thing to say in WH space because you dont have the constant threat of 248 of your closest enemies dropping in on you with no notice and no way to prevent it.

In WH space, you could have a group of 4-5 ships and be reasonably safe unless someone is aggressively gunning for you. In 0.0 you could have a group of 4-5 dozen get annihilated because someone with a titan was bored. Once again . . . apple meet orange.
Aliventi wrote:
You are pointing out exactly why removing local is good. It brings back skill. If the enemy pilot is skilled enough to get the drop on you then good for him. If you are skilled enough to prevent him from doing so then good for you. That is how Eve should be. Nullsec is lawless space. There is supposed to be risk involved.

Once again you mention this nebulous "skill" that you can have to prevent him from catching you, but without local you not only cant locate him, you wont even know he's anywhere near until its too late and youre already dead.
Aliventi wrote:
Let me ask you this: Why all of the sudden under threat of local being removed are you fearing cynos, cloaked ships, roaming gangs, etc? Could it be that local provides you such perfect effortless intel that you don't fear these things now? You and I both know that it does. This goes against what nullsec was intended to be. Currently, instead of nullsec being a lawless place with risk, it is frequently safer than highsec. It is great that you are now fearing cynos, cloaked ships, roaming gangs, etc. under threat of local going away. Your avid attempts to show that a local-less nullsec is too unsafe proves that removing local will finally bring risk back to nullsec. If such a stanch carebear as yourself is finally fearing carebearing in nullsec then we know that removing local will have the desired effect of making the space less safe. I could not find a better example of the effects of removing local if I tried and here you are handing it to me... So thank you. Blink

Thats like plucking out your eyes and then asking "why are you now afraid of running into things?" well ive always been a little afraid of running into things but when you take away the only way to avoid running into things all thats left for me to do is stumble around in darkness until i run into something and hurt myself.

Cynos from cloaked ships have always been something that is completely un-counterable, but at least you knew it was a possibility, without local you will have literally no warning that anything is wrong until you are sitting in a bubble.

Now, if you want to remove cynos from the game, or say that they cant be on ships with a cloak then remove local, go right ahead. I forsee a mass exodus from 0.0 but that would be fair because it would be fair to ask someone to go ratting in groups then, you would either have warning or you would have to have allowed several cloaked ships into the system to take you down.

But cloaked undetectable ships + cyno bridging + no local is totally overpowered. You just want easy titan bridge ganks . . . now who's the lazy one?

1. Cyno Bridging
2. Cloaking
3. No Local

Pick two
Reiisha
#44 - 2013-08-18 01:47:04 UTC
Sigras wrote:
The problem is that without local there would be literally no way for anyone to know that a cloaked ship was in the system.


1) That ship would have to cloak before it's, well, cloaked. Removing local would make life hell for botters/farmers who rely on cloaking to wait out any locals to continue their farming.

2) If it's cloaked, then it servers it's purpose perfectly. And what problem would there be if the ship was cloaked exactly? It wouldnt be able to see local to see if someone entered the system unless it was right on the gate, which is what the cloak was for to begin with.

I really don't see the problem here 0-o

And as for the problem with the 'wormhole probe trick' - Maybe that needs to get fixed rather than local?

As far as i know, local was never supposed to exist in the first place 0-o

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#45 - 2013-08-18 03:02:45 UTC
Quote:

If you are aligned out, all the cloaked ship has to do is warp at range from wherever you're aligned out to then approach you as you approach him. the time between you seeing him on your overview and him bumping you could literally be lost to lag. That does not make for a skillful game.

When you successfully launch a cyno in WH space come and talk to me. That is the difference; saying "go ratting in groups" actually is a reasonable thing to say in WH space because you dont have the constant threat of 248 of your closest enemies dropping in on you with no notice and no way to prevent it.

In WH space, you could have a group of 4-5 ships and be reasonably safe unless someone is aggressively gunning for you. In 0.0 you could have a group of 4-5 dozen get annihilated because someone with a titan was bored. Once again . . . apple meet orange.

Once again you mention this nebulous "skill" that you can have to prevent him from catching you, but without local you not only cant locate him, you wont even know he's anywhere near until its too late and youre already dead.

Thats like plucking out your eyes and then asking "why are you now afraid of running into things?" well ive always been a little afraid of running into things but when you take away the only way to avoid running into things all thats left for me to do is stumble around in darkness until i run into something and hurt myself.

Cynos from cloaked ships have always been something that is completely un-counterable, but at least you knew it was a possibility, without local you will have literally no warning that anything is wrong until you are sitting in a bubble.

Now, if you want to remove cynos from the game, or say that they cant be on ships with a cloak then remove local, go right ahead. I forsee a mass exodus from 0.0 but that would be fair because it would be fair to ask someone to go ratting in groups then, you would either have warning or you would have to have allowed several cloaked ships into the system to take you down.

But cloaked undetectable ships + cyno bridging + no local is totally overpowered. You just want easy titan bridge ganks . . . now who's the lazy one?

1. Cyno Bridging
2. Cloaking
3. No Local

Pick two

Your reply shows me that you still don't get it. Let me see if I can spell it out to you a little clearer. I admit perhaps I didn't do a very good job on my first try.

In your many replies you give us a constant stream of what if scenarios. What if it is a cyno bomber? What if it is an Arazu? What if it is a proteus? What if it bumps me? What is in common with all of these questions is up until now you have either never asked them, or the answer was "If a neut is in local dock up." Think about that. Any situation I can bring up on TQ current can be answered by "If a neut is in local dock up" or the situation is so ridiculous the question has never been asked.

That is astounding. All the choices in a certain area of space can be boiled down to "If a neut is in local dock up." That will work 100% of the time, every time. That is why you can't seem to fathom fitting a ratting ship to blow up a cyno frig. Or ratting in groups. Or placing an intel network to protect your space. You have never had to make a choice like that before because local has always made that choice for you. And the choice local has made for you was always infallible. You couldn't go wrong by following "If a neut is in local dock up." By never having to make a choice, and the choice made for you by local never placing you in danger, you are showing exactly why local is so unbalanced and broken as an intel source.

Because this system allows you to be perfectly safe you are panicing at the idea that it might be removed. All of the sudden you will have to worry about and fear game mechanics you don't currently. No game mechanic scares you right now because any game mechanic throw at you is countered by "If a neut is in local dock up." You have no fear of cynos, cloaks, roaming gangs, etc. and that is why you are asking "What do I do about a cyno bomber?" "What about an Arazu?".

See if you remove local any situation throw at you can no longer be answer by "If a neut is in local dock up." The answers are "fit to pop the cyno frig" "place an intel network to keep track of people in your space" "Let people know that a solo Arazu is coming" "Stay aligned in case if a ship decloaks you can warp before it locks you" and on and on.... You hates these answer because for the first time ever you would actually be in danger in nullsec. And that is a good thing.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2013-08-18 03:42:54 UTC
Sigras wrote:

1. Cyno Bridging
2. Cloaking
3. No Local

Pick Two

Easy
Cloaking and no local, Titan bridging is a means of bypassing local so large fleets can be brought in relatively undetected. Removing local would remove the need for Titan bridges.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Vayn Baxtor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2013-08-18 05:51:24 UTC
It is true that there will be an uprise in cloak-gameplay if local is simply removed. It is essential that is well planned. As I had posted in another thread, there has to be a balanced mix of adding counter-cloak measures while at the same time not killing the cloaky gameplay entirely. There has to also be a slight change in cyno/covert cyno gameplay however, or there will be people hijacking anybody outside of highsec with ease.

The game can still be enjoyable even if local were to be removed, but there has to also be other changes done alongside.
On the other hand, local could stay if there were some more gameplay mechanics around it, as well as taking a deep look into the cloaky gameplay.

Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all.

Sigras
Conglomo
#48 - 2013-08-18 07:27:32 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
Your reply shows me that you still don't get it. Let me see if I can spell it out to you a little clearer. I admit perhaps I didn't do a very good job on my first try.

In your many replies you give us a constant stream of what if scenarios. What if it is a cyno bomber? What if it is an Arazu? What if it is a proteus? What if it bumps me? What is in common with all of these questions is up until now you have either never asked them, or the answer was "If a neut is in local dock up." Think about that. Any situation I can bring up on TQ current can be answered by "If a neut is in local dock up" or the situation is so ridiculous the question has never been asked.

That is astounding. All the choices in a certain area of space can be boiled down to "If a neut is in local dock up." That will work 100% of the time, every time. That is why you can't seem to fathom fitting a ratting ship to blow up a cyno frig. Or ratting in groups. Or placing an intel network to protect your space. You have never had to make a choice like that before because local has always made that choice for you. And the choice local has made for you was always infallible. You couldn't go wrong by following "If a neut is in local dock up." By never having to make a choice, and the choice made for you by local never placing you in danger, you are showing exactly why local is so unbalanced and broken as an intel source.

I categorically agree with you; my argument is that docking up when a cloaky hostile is in system is THE ONLY defense that is practical. Of course I have asked myself those questions before and I have always come up with one answer: It is impractical to always be expected to fly in a fleet that can deter a cyno bridge of unknown size and strength.

Decisions in a game system are based on knowledge (or at least they should be) for instance, when im in a WH I know that only a few ships could possibly be hunting me at any given time and I know that they cant be packing a cyno, so I decide to go out with a few ships which will probably be able to withstand any fleet they can bring against me unless they're skillfully hiding a fleet of ships in my space which they snuck in somehow not by some effortless cyno.

In 0.0 you know no such things so you have to prepare for the worst . . . well the worst is pretty bad in 0.0 so unless you're prepared to face incredible odds you should stay docked up because you just dont know, and in fact you cant know because of the nature of cloaking and bridging, and if you dont prepare for the worst than you're just an idiot who is relying on blind luck to carry you through which isnt really gameplay at all nor is it skillful. Also on the off chance that you're still reading this please mention this sentence so that I know that you actually read what I wrote.

Seriously, if youre in a 0.0 system ratting and im in a cloaked proteus with a cyno and a fleet ready to bridge in, it is down to blind luck as to whether or not you make it out alive; does your computer lag enough for me to bump you before you can warp off is the only question, and once that question is answered the question of whether or not you will survive has already been answered. Now your answer could be "well just hope that he isnt in a cloaked proteus because you have no way to tell one way or another" but I ask you does that make for a skillful game?
Sigras
Conglomo
#49 - 2013-08-18 07:31:23 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Sigras wrote:

1. Cyno Bridging
2. Cloaking
3. No Local

Pick Two

Easy
Cloaking and no local, Titan bridging is a means of bypassing local so large fleets can be brought in relatively undetected. Removing local would remove the need for Titan bridges.

I would actually be perfectly fine with that. Then in 0.0 you could reasonably expect people to rat in groups large enough to take out a small cloaked fleet that may have slipped past your defensive net without worrying if theyre going to drop 200+ people on your head.
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#50 - 2013-08-18 08:13:48 UTC
Sigras wrote:

I categorically agree with you; my argument is that docking up when a cloaky hostile is in system is THE ONLY defense that is practical. Of course I have asked myself those questions before and I have always come up with one answer: It is impractical to always be expected to fly in a fleet that can deter a cyno bridge of unknown size and strength.

Decisions in a game system are based on knowledge (or at least they should be) for instance, when im in a WH I know that only a few ships could possibly be hunting me at any given time and I know that they cant be packing a cyno, so I decide to go out with a few ships which will probably be able to withstand any fleet they can bring against me unless they're skillfully hiding a fleet of ships in my space which they snuck in somehow not by some effortless cyno.

In 0.0 you know no such things so you have to prepare for the worst . . . well the worst is pretty bad in 0.0 so unless you're prepared to face incredible odds you should stay docked up because you just dont know, and in fact you cant know because of the nature of cloaking and bridging, and if you dont prepare for the worst than you're just an idiot who is relying on blind luck to carry you through which isnt really gameplay at all nor is it skillful. Also on the off chance that you're still reading this please mention this sentence so that I know that you actually read what I wrote.

Seriously, if youre in a 0.0 system ratting and im in a cloaked proteus with a cyno and a fleet ready to bridge in, it is down to blind luck as to whether or not you make it out alive; does your computer lag enough for me to bump you before you can warp off is the only question, and once that question is answered the question of whether or not you will survive has already been answered. Now your answer could be "well just hope that he isnt in a cloaked proteus because you have no way to tell one way or another" but I ask you does that make for a skillful game?

Of course I read what you wrote. Why wouldn't I?

You are still arguing that you can't possibly know that there is a cloaked ship trying to kill you. And that is wrong. A cyno ship still has to jump through gates which means the intel network will be able to pick it up and keep track of it. A competent intel network can tell you exactly who is in your space and what they are flying. From there you can use watch lists to see if they are still logged in and perhaps locator agents to see which system they are in. You have all of the tools right now to replace local. If you execute it right you should have the knowledge to make decisions where you die no more than you do now.

And I would never be ratting in a system where my intel network told me there was a proteus hunting. I don't care if you have 100 supers, 2500 dreads, 5000 carriers, and 100 titans with 300 people formed up on each of them ready to cyno in. If I pay attention to my intel network you will never catch me because you can't cyno in on what was never there to begin with. The threat of a cloaked ship getting the drop on me is nullified because, despite the lack of local, I still know you are there. Not blind luck or random chance. My skilled intel network beat your skill at evading it. The current effortless perfect intel local has no skill involved. So yes, removing local will bring skill back to nullsec.
PhantomTrojan
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2013-08-18 13:35:17 UTC
removing local would be a horrible mistake but something can be done to nerf it. By placing a pos or sov module that tics every 15/20 seconds, scan the system and update the local. by letting local display the number of players but not who they are. Display them in local only after they have been scanned.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#52 - 2013-08-18 13:47:45 UTC
Hot dropping is not an issue without local, because only a crazy person offers their reinforcement's bottleneck inside firing range to a hostile if they can avoid it.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#53 - 2013-08-18 17:34:42 UTC
PhantomTrojan wrote:
removing local would be a horrible mistake but something can be done to nerf it. By placing a pos or sov module that tics every 15/20 seconds, scan the system and update the local. by letting local display the number of players but not who they are. Display them in local only after they have been scanned.


It would be a game changer, but it wouldn't be a horrible mistake. Plus we have the side benefit of all the scammers dying a horrible death. That in of itself is worth it. Lol

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2013-08-18 18:54:29 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
One person on each in gate cloaked. One person in each bottleneck system. If a person jumps in you report it to the intel channel, or perhaps make an out of game tracker, and you instantly know that the section of systems between the in gate and the next bottle-neck are compromised. You have lots of warning to get safe. If you ignore this and die, again, you deserve it. From there you just keep track of their movements. I am sure y'all who value your safety will find the most efficient way to accomplish this with great results.

Let's try and not make intel a huge multi-person grindfest.

And this isn't as easy as you think. Even current intel channels are somewhat difficult to manage and only as good as the players that post in them. And that is with local as a tool. You make people put characters on gates and that's just poor gameplay.

There needs to be another way for even a solo player to gather usable intel (assuming local is gone). Something that could be used to his advantage, and against him if he's not careful.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#55 - 2013-08-18 20:19:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Sigras wrote:

I actually dont agree and here's why as you seem like a reasonable fellow.

Right now cloaked ships can provide a massive benefit to their user for no risk. I mean honestly if you lose a covert ops cloaked ship you probably had it coming.

The benefits are as follows:

1. enemy fleet composition
2. enemy fleet location
3. warp ins
4. cynos
5. threat of force

and yes I know that cynos do involve risk, but you're pretty much not going to commit to a cyno unless you're sure you have the upper hand. All of these things are uncounterable unavoidable real benefits that a cloaked ship provides with no risk to itself. Do you think that is justified?


You are wrong, and it probably stems from your failure to understand exactly how the game works. I'll ask a question that should help you here (if you don't already know):

You are in system ABC-DE1 ratting away. A hostile jumps in. Who sees who first? Do you see him first, does he see you first, do you see each other at the same time?

I'll give you a hint: currently given the way the game works and current mechanics, the residents of any system have a distinct advantage.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#56 - 2013-08-18 20:52:51 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
You are still arguing that you can't possibly know that there is a cloaked ship trying to kill you. And that is wrong. A cyno ship still has to jump through gates which means the intel network will be able to pick it up and keep track of it. A competent intel network can tell you exactly who is in your space and what they are flying. From there you can use watch lists to see if they are still logged in and perhaps locator agents to see which system they are in.

So you're assuming a scout player sitting on literally every gate in every system in your space at all times, a database keeping track of every ship that enters or leaves your space with timestamps and location records of when they logged in or out and a massive network of locator agents cycling 24/7.

Or, we could just go 'yeah screw that' and run L4s on highsec alts in perfect safety instead.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
virgofire
Vay Mining Corporation
#57 - 2013-08-18 21:32:14 UTC
Local is there cause Eve is a social game. it's unlikely that CCP would remove it from the game, or even change how it functions.

It was said by another poster already. Removing it would just making an MMO feel like a single player game that you pretend is an MMO
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#58 - 2013-08-18 22:05:05 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Let's try and not make intel a huge multi-person grindfest.

And this isn't as easy as you think. Even current intel channels are somewhat difficult to manage and only as good as the players that post in them. And that is with local as a tool. You make people put characters on gates and that's just poor gameplay.

There needs to be another way for even a solo player to gather usable intel (assuming local is gone). Something that could be used to his advantage, and against him if he's not careful.

No one is forcing you to put anyone anywhere. To me an intel network isn't that much work. The numbers really don't lie. 13 people locking down 94 systems in Branch. If you don't want to use 94 systems you can go down to 27 systems which would take at the very least 3 people. That isn't a grindfest. The reason it seems like a grindfest or a ton of work is you haven't invested anything in to making it more efficient. Your intel channels now are terribly inefficient because, even if you don't use your intel channels, local provides more than enough protection.

If there is one thing we have proved time and again it is when faced with a challenge or opportunity it is we will find the best way to go about it. Incursions are a prime example: Started out very rough. Over time as experience was gained in how best to go about completing the sites the fits and tactics changed to the point that the fleets are now brutally efficient. The same will happen with intel networks. They will start out very clunky and inefficient. Over time as people work on them they will grow in to highly efficient intel networks that for very little amount of work can provide near local grade intel.

As far as a new game mechanic to help a soloer gather potentially useful intel I suppose you could propose one. Many people much wiser than I have pointed out that Eve, especially in nullsec, is not a solo player game. While I am not going to say solo play is bad, it certainly shouldn't be the optimal way to play in nullsec. So I am thinking D-scan is sufficient. You will see all of the uncloaked ships on it which means a judgement call to go or stay. It won't help as much against a cloaked opponent. Then it comes down to "can I pop a Stealth Bomber?" and "Am I aligned out to warp before their cloak recalibration timer is up?". It isn't the most efficient or optimal intel system. And it really shouldn't be. Chances are you are a part of a thousand+ man alliance that is part of a multi-thousand man coalition. At that point you have proven you can work with others to take the space. Which means you can work with others to grant safety to use the space.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#59 - 2013-08-18 23:01:27 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
You are still arguing that you can't possibly know that there is a cloaked ship trying to kill you. And that is wrong. A cyno ship still has to jump through gates which means the intel network will be able to pick it up and keep track of it. A competent intel network can tell you exactly who is in your space and what they are flying. From there you can use watch lists to see if they are still logged in and perhaps locator agents to see which system they are in.

So you're assuming a scout player sitting on literally every gate in every system in your space at all times, a database keeping track of every ship that enters or leaves your space with timestamps and location records of when they logged in or out and a massive network of locator agents cycling 24/7.

Or, we could just go 'yeah screw that' and run L4s on highsec alts in perfect safety instead.

ROFL... Every gate... awesome use of exaggeration there!

Heck, anything beyond already established gate camps, and systems where pilots watch local for this reason already, makes no sense.

If you got a couch potato in a station, you either don't care which gate is used, or the options don't matter beyond knowing they are present. At no point will you have more than a wild guess what they are flying.

All you should be watching are the bottleneck points. If you don't have eyes on a gate already, your intel is second rate since you have no idea what the ship is. This should not be more effort, since not even local made the entry into any intel channel if noone was online in the system and watching that much at least.
The lazy intel guy would need to undock for once, however....

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#60 - 2013-08-18 23:22:41 UTC
There is no skill attainable to catch people with local. You either have the alt accounts and the target screws up or you don't.