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Balancing Feedback: New Tech2 modules

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Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#101 - 2011-11-12 10:08:33 UTC
Psihius wrote:
Alsyth wrote:
Psihius
[b wrote:
As on subject of a T3 on a POS - people, please! You came to their home, they live there, it's kind'a their territory. They will and should have advantages when they defend their system! You do the same for your home, aren't you?[/b]


They already have :
- a POS to hide in where we can't go because of guns
- the possibility to reship at station each time they lose a ship
- the possibility to reship and fly the perfect counter to us, be it capital remote if you want
- safespots everywhere it matters
- cloaked alts on gates and nearby systems to know where we are immediatly, and choose their ships accordingly
- usually they have alts ready to probe us with perfect skills/ship in no time


It's more than enough.


We roamers, on the other side :
- don't have any POSes to hide in
- can't reship at all when we lose a ship, or when we'd like to change ships because of our opponents
- don't have that much safespots in systems we don't roam often (sometimes no safespots at all)
- usually in small roaming gangs (5-20) we don't have enough scouts to have a vision on -every- nearby system
- when we have a prober (not always the case) his job is more difficult than it is for locals, and if he wants to be useful in the fight, he won't have a Virtued Covops.

You are, well, roaming. If you find that system inhabitants have fortified their position - move over or risk taking them on. Roaming, as I envision it, takes targets of opportunity or makes hit & run moves.
If you think like that - than when your roaming enters the system the game has to remove all POS, stations, ganglink bonuses and so on. WAKE UP!. You are:
1. In hostile space
2. Friends of the inhabitants probably live near by anyway.
3. It's their territory - they have intel and scouts any way.
4. So, they have a pos or station with ships ready - what a surprise for you!

Dammit, I read this ganglink bonus whine and one thing comes to mind: a bunch of space whines who want to PvP on their own terms when they go to hostile space. I have an impression that if it was possible, you would make that when you enter system - stations deny docking to everyone and POS'es bump all pilots out of their force fields.

You are roamers, you chose to have a light, agile and fast gang - use it. Hit fast and go your way. If you want a good battle - bring battleships for gods sake and not that nano-gay-style-fleet that can't break a gang that has a bonus giving ship in the system.



This is to funny. This is the same kind of bs talk that ruined low sec. This kind's of players just could not be happy to grab are mission ships at stations and gates and belts or plantes or moons. They had to cry and cry till tthere was no place to hide at other then the stations and POS's and if they could have gotten them too they would have. Now low sec has no to very few soft targets for there nano gank squads. Well then I say to you blam yourselfsBear

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.
Sigras
Conglomo
#102 - 2011-11-12 10:41:48 UTC
AMXZAKU wrote:
restricting command links to ongrid would just be plain ******** and render T3 command ships entirely useless. Switching t3 commad bonusses with the CS bonusse so the CS have an advantage there would be okay though

more unqualified statements . . .

why would T3 command ships not be used to provide bonuses if command links were restricted to on grid? theyre smaller, faster, provide a better bonus, can be used to do other things in addition to provide bonuses, and can have just as stiff a tank.

It would just be deciding if you want one really good bonus or 3 pretty good bonuses
Lili Lu
#103 - 2011-11-12 11:51:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Sigras wrote:
AMXZAKU wrote:
restricting command links to ongrid would just be plain ******** and render T3 command ships entirely useless. Switching t3 commad bonusses with the CS bonusse so the CS have an advantage there would be okay though

more unqualified statements . . .

why would T3 command ships not be used to provide bonuses if command links were restricted to on grid? theyre smaller, faster, provide a better bonus, can be used to do other things in addition to provide bonuses, and can have just as stiff a tank.

It would just be deciding if you want one really good bonus or 3 pretty good bonuses


Well, Sigras I think Amxzaku's other solution would be acceptable to me. Either way the command ships would be the ones at the top of the boosting potential, either by quality or quantity of boosts.

However, I agree that on-grid would be best for the game. Having a command running 3 links as the fleet booster and on-grid with some T3 being wing commanders or squad commanders with a single better boost would be actually pretty good. The command can fit a great tank with 3 at the current level of boost and the T3 can fit a great tank with one at the current level of boost. Both on-grid and fighting. Best of both worlds. No more booster sitting at a pos or trying to be unprobable at a ss idiocy.

Would also make people think about boost efficiency and placement of ships within the fleet. Would further promote a better fleet of pilots that care about their placement within a fleet over so many fleets where half the fleet are noobs that join it and go back to watching porn til time to activate their virtual guns. The dumb asses clogging logi squads such that their logis don't get a desired T3 squad boost would lose to a fleet of people that cared where they were in fleet Smile
Amsterdam Conversations
Doomheim
#104 - 2011-11-12 13:53:03 UTC
Sigras wrote:
AMXZAKU wrote:
restricting command links to ongrid would just be plain ******** and render T3 command ships entirely useless. Switching t3 commad bonusses with the CS bonusse so the CS have an advantage there would be okay though

more unqualified statements . . .

why would T3 command ships not be used to provide bonuses if command links were restricted to on grid? theyre smaller, faster, provide a better bonus, can be used to do other things in addition to provide bonuses, and can have just as stiff a tank.

It would just be deciding if you want one really good bonus or 3 pretty good bonuses

You just don't get it, do you.

Cloaky bonus lokis are used so they don't need to be commited to a 10vs50.
You're talking about things you don't know anything about. How many SP do you have in leadership? Does anyone in your alliance even fly mindlinked commandships/T3s? I bet no.

A triple link loki is unable to fit any sort of tank. It goes maybe the speed of a dual nano hurricane, has worse agility and costs 450m + 100m in implants. They have pretty much the same sig as a Cane, too. They'll just get one/twovolleyed by any artillery BS.

No one needs only one bonus. The skirmish bonuses are all way too good to not have them, just like the siege ones are.
Willl Adama
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#105 - 2011-11-12 16:10:18 UTC
Amsterdam Conversations wrote:
Sigras wrote:
AMXZAKU wrote:
restricting command links to ongrid would just be plain ******** and render T3 command ships entirely useless. Switching t3 commad bonusses with the CS bonusse so the CS have an advantage there would be okay though

more unqualified statements . . .

why would T3 command ships not be used to provide bonuses if command links were restricted to on grid? theyre smaller, faster, provide a better bonus, can be used to do other things in addition to provide bonuses, and can have just as stiff a tank.

It would just be deciding if you want one really good bonus or 3 pretty good bonuses

You just don't get it, do you.

Cloaky bonus lokis are used so they don't need to be commited to a 10vs50.
You're talking about things you don't know anything about. How many SP do you have in leadership? Does anyone in your alliance even fly mindlinked commandships/T3s? I bet no.

A triple link loki is unable to fit any sort of tank. It goes maybe the speed of a dual nano hurricane, has worse agility and costs 450m + 100m in implants. They have pretty much the same sig as a Cane, too. They'll just get one/twovolleyed by any artillery BS.

No one needs only one bonus. The skirmish bonuses are all way too good to not have them, just like the siege ones are.


^ This

No one would be using a T3 over a CS ever if it was restricted to ongrid. Basically a Drake would outperform it for this '1 link' thing, for 1/20 of the price and no risk of losing SP

Hi
Gramacy
Lazy.
#106 - 2011-11-12 16:56:00 UTC
Right now there isn't much point in using a CS over cloaky T3 for gang links, and they're also hard to kill so people feel they need to have one just to be able to compete. Swapping the bonuses on CS and T3 will be unlikely to solve the problem as it's much easier to keep the T3 safe.

Make the links only work ongrid, but also boost the link bonus and armor/shield stats for the warfare processor subsystems. That way, they will still be useful in gangs where it's difficult to make a CS work well. Bigger fleets should use CS for the 3 links they have.
Sigras
Conglomo
#107 - 2011-11-12 20:58:16 UTC
Amsterdam Conversations wrote:
Sigras wrote:
why would T3 command ships not be used to provide bonuses if command links were restricted to on grid? theyre smaller, faster, provide a better bonus, can be used to do other things in addition to provide bonuses, and can have just as stiff a tank.

It would just be deciding if you want one really good bonus or 3 pretty good bonuses

You just don't get it, do you.

Cloaky bonus lokis are used so they don't need to be commited to a 10vs50.
You're talking about things you don't know anything about. How many SP do you have in leadership? Does anyone in your alliance even fly mindlinked commandships/T3s? I bet no.

lol im glad you asked about my leadership skills because i have exactly 12,191,400 points in leadership, i have warfare link specialist 5, all of the specializations except siege to 5 and am training fleet command 5 next, I fly the Loki, Proteus, Claymore, Damnation and Eos . . . any other questions about my command abilities?

and yes I fly mindlinked T3s . . . usually sitting in a POS giving boost from 100% safety which is how i KNOW its overpowered.

and yes, if I were forced to be on grid I would still use the loki over the claymore because I can armor tank it and still get the sig radius or speed bonus . . . sig radius bonus is fail on a shield tanking ship with shield rigs Roll

and really? 10 vs 50 . . . so you really think that you even should win that fight? (hint the answer is no and if you think differently youre the one who needs to be committed.
Amsterdam Conversations wrote:
A triple link loki is unable to fit any sort of tank. It goes maybe the speed of a dual nano hurricane, has worse agility and costs 450m + 100m in implants. They have pretty much the same sig as a Cane, too. They'll just get one/twovolleyed by any artillery BS.

No one needs only one bonus. The skirmish bonuses are all way too good to not have them, just like the siege ones are


So bring 3 of them . . . or better yet, if youre too poor bring a command ship instead . . . thats the beauty of eve, you dont HAVE to bring a loki.

The fact that youre not creative enough to make it work does not cause a problem for the rest of us.
Kraschyn Thek'athor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2011-11-13 11:47:31 UTC
Could a Dev explain the intended usage of T2 Bomb Launcher?

Solo-Bombing? How many viable targets are out there for solo bombing?

It doesn't matter all too much in a fleet fight if there is a slight delay between fleet members.
For Bombers, it is rather irrelvant.

A T2 weapon without T2 ammunition, what kind of improvement is this?
Carulis
Scarab Technological Industries
#109 - 2011-11-13 13:25:42 UTC
Hmm, it's nice to see a boost of 0.5% to the T2 Mining Foreman modules, however I do think the
Mining Laser Field Enhancement should have a boost of 1.625% from 4.5 to 5.625% to keep it pro-ratered inline with the other modules which increase from 2% to 2.5%
Patrice Macmahon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2011-11-14 12:42:08 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
Altarica wrote:
On the subject of warfare links and the ship bonus, as some people have mention the Tech 3's are out of line. I beleive that the Tech 3's are designed to be highly flexible vessels but not quite as good as the specialised Tech 2 version of their various roles, ie the Tech 3 recon/EW sections are not as powerful as the Tech 2 recon ships and the Tech 3 logistic's sections are not as good as the Tech 2 logistic hulls.

Only in the command Ship role is the Tech 3 better than the Tech 2 versions, so for an easy fix why not simply swap the two bonus(es) around so using the Vulture and Tengu as examples

The Vulture gets the 5% to effectiveness of siege warfare links
and
The Tengu gets the 3% to effectiveness of siege warfare links

This would put the warfare link Tech 3's back into their place as "better than Tech 1" but "not quite as good as Tech 2"




Like/Approve

In what way should a command ship be less viable than a t3 which is designed to be flexible. The cruisers should be good at a lot of things, but excel at nothing, especially when comparing to ships that specialize.

I think the offgrid/possed command boosts are in need of fixing as well, it shouldn't be a valid tactic to sit in a pos and help a fleet. The idea is to command, i.e. be a part of the fleet. Not sit in a hidey hole while helping out your side like some middle eastern dictator.


+1 To both statements.

To better adress off grid boosting, would it be possible to have reduced boosting effectiveness when the CS is not on grid?

I.E. On Grid = Full boost amount
Off Grid = 50% boost amount

This would preserve highly protective booster play while encouraging commitment of fleet boosting assets.

 "Much of this is crystallised in our philosophy, or as others call it "the Intaki Faith". We simply call it Ida - the literal translation is "to consider", and is a good description of the Intaki." 
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#111 - 2011-11-14 14:01:34 UTC
Please, just for the sake of testing, drop the requirements for these T2 mods from needing the skill at V to IV. Most don't have it trained up and the expansion will be out before we can skill the mirror for it.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#112 - 2011-11-14 15:59:42 UTC
Sorry for the late reply people, been quite busy with other stuff lately.

Feedback!

Tech 2 triage module: acknowledged it's not really worth the training right now; however we don't really want to give it a repairing bonus. Capacitor reduction is a fair option.

Tech 2 bomb launcher: indeed, is also a bit weak on its own, we are considering some options mentioned in this thread.

Tech 2 probe launchers/drone modules: may very well make some faction variants obsolete indeed, it needs to be looked at further.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#113 - 2011-11-14 16:07:16 UTC
Capacitor reduction bonus + 2 or 3 max locked targets and I'll be training for t2 triage today!

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Yvan Ratamnim
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#114 - 2011-11-14 16:38:02 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Sorry for the late reply people, been quite busy with other stuff lately.

Feedback!

Tech 2 triage module: acknowledged it's not really worth the training right now; however we don't really want to give it a repairing bonus. Capacitor reduction is a fair option.

Tech 2 bomb launcher: indeed, is also a bit weak on its own, we are considering some options mentioned in this thread.

Tech 2 probe launchers/drone modules: may very well make some faction variants obsolete indeed, it needs to be looked at further.


Have to say you hit nail on the head, all the other t2 modules have nice little bonuses to them...

PLEASE PLEASE consider t2 triage giving a bonus to capacitor to increase survivability against neutralizers or being able to run local and remote reps more reliably...

T2 bomb launchers are gonna be difficult to make people want them, i mean unless there much faster.

T2 probe launchers are fine, but if that sthe case give faction a bit of a buff
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#115 - 2011-11-14 17:39:19 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Sorry for the late reply people, been quite busy with other stuff lately.

Feedback!

Tech 2 triage module: acknowledged it's not really worth the training right now; however we don't really want to give it a repairing bonus. Capacitor reduction is a fair option.

Tech 2 bomb launcher: indeed, is also a bit weak on its own, we are considering some options mentioned in this thread.

Tech 2 probe launchers/drone modules: may very well make some faction variants obsolete indeed, it needs to be looked at further.


with the tech 2 bomb launchers all you need to do i think is create tech 2 bombs to go with

tech 2 bombs:

precision bomb - 50m3 volume, 2x as fast, same range, same damage.
rage bomb - 75m3 volume, same speed and range as t1 bombs, 20% more damage

this would make T2 bomb launchers much more attractive. precision bombs would be excellent for anti-frig bombing runs as it gives the frigs less time to GTFO, and rage bombs would be good for hitting heavy targets. obviously these bombs cost somewhat more (but not too much, bombs are already fairly expensive), but you have to train the Bomb Deployment skill to V for access to T2 launchers and bombs.

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Vmir Gallahasen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2011-11-14 18:23:29 UTC
Why not let command ships have a bonus to links in general? I don't think I've seen an Eos in space in the last 3 years; if we could slap a couple of armor links and a few skirmish links on there that all benefit from the 3% ship bonus (or change it to 5 even?) there would be a clear benefit (other than tank) to bringing an actual command ship to the fight. Or in a safespot next to the fight, anyway. And you wouldn't have to train up specifically to fly a vulture if you wanted a shield link command ship, an Eos or Claymore would be just as good assuming you have the mindlink to go with your chosen links
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#117 - 2011-11-14 19:42:24 UTC
As regards to the on-grid/ off-grid discussion regarding gang links, has anyone considered the implications for mining fleets, primarly in low' nul-sec.

There is no way those guys want to have to sit their orca/ rorqual in the belt in order to get bonuses.

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
Helothane
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#118 - 2011-11-14 20:10:57 UTC
Carulis wrote:
Hmm, it's nice to see a boost of 0.5% to the T2 Mining Foreman modules, however I do think the
Mining Laser Field Enhancement should have a boost of 1.625% from 4.5 to 5.625% to keep it pro-ratered inline with the other modules which increase from 2% to 2.5%


Similar for the two gang links that the T1 is 3% that go to 3.5% with the present way the T2 links are designed (interdiction Maneuvers and Sensor Integrity).
Sigras
Conglomo
#119 - 2011-11-14 21:23:28 UTC
Desert Ice78 wrote:
As regards to the on-grid/ off-grid discussion regarding gang links, has anyone considered the implications for mining fleets, primarly in low' nul-sec.

There is no way those guys want to have to sit their orca/ rorqual in the belt in order to get bonuses.

yeah I was thinking about that . . . maybe they could make an exception for mining links?
Dank Man
#120 - 2011-11-15 02:46:27 UTC
I agree with the fact that offgrid boosters should have some reduction to effectiveness, you see it all to often with high sec war dec corps using out of corp boosters that are totally safe, and with e-honorable people who want 1v1s in lowsec but use their booster offgrid to easily gain the upper hand. As for mining bonuses from orca or rorq i think they should absolutely have to be on grid to give the bonuses to the mining ships around them, it seems that was the intended use of the ship, with the tractor beam bonuses and such, so even if the risk is higher, the reward will be worth the risk for those greedy miners. I think t2 bombs are needed with t2 launchers, t2 triage module with added cap recharge would be great, and actually made the new improved Niddy a beastly capital logi platform hopefully, even though they will still be called as primary, nueted, and die first.