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Militia duty for pilots unconvinced of the Amarr status quo
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Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#61 - 2011-11-07 13:58:06 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
When I meant status quo I was purely referring to territorial borders and nothing else.
That's the issue, though - you can not fight solely for the current territorial status. When you fight for the territorial status quo, you also fight for the political and economical status quo. That's one of the problems with wars: They polarize. Soldiers fight for the whole deal. They can not just fight for some excerpts out of it, and claim they don't fight for the rest.

Quote:
Allow me to ask, not to trick or trap but because my guess is you'll be more knowledgable of the working order of things than myself. What happens to Amarrian citizens in systems under Matari occupancy?
Similarly to the question as to what happens with Minmatar under Amarrian occupation, we do not have concrete information. We can only deduce from past incidents of similar nature, and I'm not sure how many of those there are.


Then there is a possibility that the Amarrian citizens in systems that the Republic occupy are infact enslaved, not to a level of servitude but at least to the degree that they are held against their will. This isn't a direct accusation but there's the possibility that such actions may occur.

Not to delve too deeply in the realm of the hypothetical but if that were the case then there's an argument that while you say pilots in the 21st fight to maintain slavery of the Matari held under the Amarrians, at the same time they fight to prevent enslavement of their own people.



You are right though, war isn't pretty. By far and large it's a great big f-ing mess.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#62 - 2011-11-07 14:07:41 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Then there is a possibility that the Amarrian citizens in systems that the Republic occupy are infact enslaved, not to a level of servitude but at least to the degree that they are held against their will. This isn't a direct accusation but there's the possibility that such actions may occur.
I do not think that it is useful for this debate (or any other) to simple equate imprisonment and slavery, or culturally accepted and promoted slavery with illegal slavery, but that aside:

Quote:
Not to delve too deeply in the realm of the hypothetical but if that were the case then there's an argument that while you say pilots in the 21st fight to maintain slavery of the Matari held under the Amarrians, at the same time they fight to prevent enslavement of their own people.
Yes. He prefers the enslavement of the Minmatar over the "enslavement" (imprisonment) of the Amarr.

That's what he fights for.

Quote:
You are right though, war isn't pretty. By far and large it's a great big f-ing mess.
Good summary. Wish we could have avoided it. But well, here we are.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#63 - 2011-11-07 14:18:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Then there is a possibility that the Amarrian citizens in systems that the Republic occupy are infact enslaved, not to a level of servitude but at least to the degree that they are held against their will. This isn't a direct accusation but there's the possibility that such actions may occur.
I do not think that it is useful for this debate (or any other) to simple equate imprisonment and slavery, or culturally accepted and promoted slavery with illegal slavery, but that aside:


I wasn't trying to compare them on equal terms, but the notion is however you spin it it's still a form of enslavement. I'll not sidetrack off into a long discussion on ethics around imprisonment.

Quote:
Quote:
Not to delve too deeply in the realm of the hypothetical but if that were the case then there's an argument that while you say pilots in the 21st fight to maintain slavery of the Matari held under the Amarrians, at the same time they fight to prevent enslavement of their own people.
Yes. He prefers the enslavement of the Minmatar over the "enslavement" (imprisonment) of the Amarr.

That's what he fights for.


So (at the most basic level) to prevent slavery, he supports slavery. But by not supporting slavery, he's allowing slavery to happen.

Damned if you do...

Quote:
Good summary. Wish we could have avoided it. But well, here we are.


And the sooner an agreeable resolution can be built between the two Empires the better.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#64 - 2011-11-07 14:47:45 UTC
The grey that Arkady speaks of is something every Militia pilot (Unless they're truly "black" in the context) has to wrestle with. I have said repeatedly that I do not wish to destroy the Empire utterly, nor do I wish harm upon the Amarrian people.

However, should the Republic defeat the Empire, whether in the current proxy war or in the next virtually inevitable unrestricted war, I am aware of what will happen; slaves will kill their former masters, Minmatar soldiers will kill civilians, cities and stations will be destroyed.

There are two schools of thought here:

1) I ramble about Arzad, injustice, and how "you started it". Not real damn helpful.

2) I accept that this is a possible outcome, I swallow and do what I am doing anyway, and push forward. It dosent matter if I hate it, It dosent matter how pro-peace I may claim to be. As long as I am firing, I am pushing for my people to defeat yours, I am assisting, however indirectly, in whatever atrocity may result from victory, should that day come. I do so simply because I believe it is a more acceptable price to pay than doing nothing, and waiting for the Slave ships to darken the sky of Matar once more.

Anyone deluding themselves to believe that they are not, however indirectly, assisting the probable humanitarian outcomes of victory, should they gain that victory, needs to go find a very good psychologist.

Shaman Avlynka Surionen
Teraa Matar.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#65 - 2011-11-07 18:47:03 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
But this does hardly tell about the initial intentions themselves. I always find highly hazardous to jump so quick to conclusions.
Do the intentions matter to the question at hand?

If you find it likely that the victory of the 24th Imperial Crusade will lead to slavery, supporting them in any way is actively supporting slavery. For this, it does not matter whether you want that to happen. Or whether that's the reason why you joined the Crusade in the first place. If that is what will happen, your actions will have supported it to come to pass.

That's the grey area. You can not be all white simply by not being all black.


Wrong. Likely does not equate surely. Implying otherwise would be going against all logic.

Arkady Sadik wrote:
I'm not claiming that you are a cruel, evil slaving bastard. I even said repeatedly that it's quite possible that you honestly wish for slavery to end.


I remember of the first occurences of this endless discussion. You called these crusaders "monsters". I am glad you changed your mind (I mean it). It makes me think there is still an use to discuss here.

Progress at least.


Ava Starfire wrote:
The grey that Arkady speaks of is something every Militia pilot (Unless they're truly "black" in the context) has to wrestle with. I have said repeatedly that I do not wish to destroy the Empire utterly, nor do I wish harm upon the Amarrian people.

However, should the Republic defeat the Empire, whether in the current proxy war or in the next virtually inevitable unrestricted war, I am aware of what will happen; slaves will kill their former masters, Minmatar soldiers will kill civilians, cities and stations will be destroyed.

There are two schools of thought here:

1) I ramble about Arzad, injustice, and how "you started it". Not real damn helpful.

2) I accept that this is a possible outcome, I swallow and do what I am doing anyway, and push forward. It dosent matter if I hate it, It dosent matter how pro-peace I may claim to be. As long as I am firing, I am pushing for my people to defeat yours, I am assisting, however indirectly, in whatever atrocity may result from victory, should that day come. I do so simply because I believe it is a more acceptable price to pay than doing nothing, and waiting for the Slave ships to darken the sky of Matar once more.

Anyone deluding themselves to believe that they are not, however indirectly, assisting the probable humanitarian outcomes of victory, should they gain that victory, needs to go find a very good psychologist.

Shaman Avlynka Surionen
Teraa Matar.


Interesting. I thought you were not contesting Amarrian space. I see I was wrong. Swallow as much as you can, but eventually, the result will be the same, unlike for people that actually fought for something valuable : the territorial statu quo.

Thank you for the clarification though, now if you please excuse me, I have a psychologist to see...
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#66 - 2011-11-07 20:20:17 UTC
This discussion, like most of its kind, make the mistake of assuming that this war is somehow a moral question.

Some people assume that if they just can prove that slavery is evil, the war will end.

Some people assume that if they just can prove that slavery is not evil, the war will end.

Some people assume that if they can just prove that everyone is equally guilty of evil, the war will end.

Some people assume that if they can just prove that everyone is equally honorable, the war will end.

They are all wrong.

Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#67 - 2011-11-07 23:42:54 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
But this does hardly tell about the initial intentions themselves. I always find highly hazardous to jump so quick to conclusions.
Do the intentions matter to the question at hand?

If you find it likely that the victory of the 24th Imperial Crusade will lead to slavery, supporting them in any way is actively supporting slavery. For this, it does not matter whether you want that to happen. Or whether that's the reason why you joined the Crusade in the first place. If that is what will happen, your actions will have supported it to come to pass.

That's the grey area. You can not be all white simply by not being all black.


Wrong. Likely does not equate surely. Implying otherwise would be going against all logic.

Arkady Sadik wrote:
I'm not claiming that you are a cruel, evil slaving bastard. I even said repeatedly that it's quite possible that you honestly wish for slavery to end.


I remember of the first occurences of this endless discussion. You called these crusaders "monsters". I am glad you changed your mind (I mean it). It makes me think there is still an use to discuss here.

Progress at least.


Ava Starfire wrote:
The grey that Arkady speaks of is something every Militia pilot (Unless they're truly "black" in the context) has to wrestle with. I have said repeatedly that I do not wish to destroy the Empire utterly, nor do I wish harm upon the Amarrian people.

However, should the Republic defeat the Empire, whether in the current proxy war or in the next virtually inevitable unrestricted war, I am aware of what will happen; slaves will kill their former masters, Minmatar soldiers will kill civilians, cities and stations will be destroyed.

There are two schools of thought here:

1) I ramble about Arzad, injustice, and how "you started it". Not real damn helpful.

2) I accept that this is a possible outcome, I swallow and do what I am doing anyway, and push forward. It dosent matter if I hate it, It dosent matter how pro-peace I may claim to be. As long as I am firing, I am pushing for my people to defeat yours, I am assisting, however indirectly, in whatever atrocity may result from victory, should that day come. I do so simply because I believe it is a more acceptable price to pay than doing nothing, and waiting for the Slave ships to darken the sky of Matar once more.

Anyone deluding themselves to believe that they are not, however indirectly, assisting the probable humanitarian outcomes of victory, should they gain that victory, needs to go find a very good psychologist.

Shaman Avlynka Surionen
Teraa Matar.


Interesting. I thought you were not contesting Amarrian space. I see I was wrong. Swallow as much as you can, but eventually, the result will be the same, unlike for people that actually fought for something valuable : the territorial statu quo.

Thank you for the clarification though, now if you please excuse me, I have a psychologist to see...


Reread what I wrote, very carefully, and tell me where I said I was contesting space.

I thought you above putting words into my mouth to make yourself feel better. Once again, an Amarrian proves me wrong.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#68 - 2011-11-08 19:22:36 UTC
You said "should the Republic defeat the Empire", that you are aware of what will happen and then said that you are "swallowing" its cons nevertheless. I really thought you meant you were supporting that end in itself by "swallowing" what bad it could bring. So I assumed that you changed your mind and actively pushed for the Republic victory.

My deepest apologies if there was a misunderstanding on my behalf. Now then, though, if you feel the need firstly to tell me to see a psychologist and then to call me Amarrian for whatever reason, then feel free to do it, but I have difficulties to see how it could not be calling me something that I consider myself not to be, or in need of.
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#69 - 2011-11-12 09:33:18 UTC
I suppose our most enlightened Empress has a plan for this sort of thing. . . just remember who you fight for and why.