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Poetic Justice for Gold Farming
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Darvaleth Sigma
Imperial Security Hegemony
#141 - 2013-08-16 17:25:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Darvaleth Sigma
Wow, she farmed gold to sell gold to buy gold to hide gold to claim gold on gold insurance.

Presumably to buy more gold!

Give a man a match and you warm him for a day.

Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life!
Linna Baresi
#142 - 2013-08-16 17:54:42 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Yeah, they are discussing it like a legal matter, but it already is. By paying to play the game you agree to the EULA. That's a contract, so breaching that contract is a breach of a contract. Earning money through a breach of contract is essentially fraud.


Here's the thing though... quite a lot of EULAs are not or not completely legally binding. There's jurisprudence in several countries in which the court dismissed 'click-through-EULAs' because of their nature. And then there's the matter of jurisdiction. Some things that are explicitly legal in the one country are explicitly ILLEGAL (and thus unenforceable and possibly punishable by law) in other countries. It's a headache and then some. Which is why virtually every EULA I've ever seen contains hedging clauses, saying something like "Some of the above may not apply in your area. If any of the above is deemed illegal and/or unenforcable in a court of law, this will not invalidate the rest of the EULA". Go check, I guarantee you'll find that phrase all over the place.

Basically, both the 'real' value of virtual items and the right to sell them for cash is unexplored country for most legal systems. I think South Korea is the only country where they actually have extensive laws on it.

I loathe gold sellers, and I despise selling items for real cash, don't get me wrong there. I hate the easymoder buyers too. But that doesn't mean I automatically go with the whole 'poetic justice' idea. It would be different if someone had robbed or scammed her IN GAME. But we're talking real life here, and that's something to be careful with. The woman may be scamming the insurance company... but insurance companies aren't saints either, and if they're trying to get out of THEIR very real contractual obligations, that's pretty bad in and of itself, regardless of where that gold came from.

Member of since 2003 fated.europefreeforum.com
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#143 - 2013-08-16 18:13:47 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
RMT does not harm eve in anyway, botting does. If CCP implemented any effort into curbing botting and multi boxing then RMT would not be a problem. If some one wants to grind ISK and sell it fairly for dollar then who is that harming other than CCP? Botting however damages the player base by artificially inflating PLEX price.

The solution is easy, have a mandatory monthly subscription while still selling PLEX, ban botting/multi boxing while allowing RMT'rs to do their trade. Having a mandatory sub that can not be plexed would kill botting, rmt botting and multi boxing overnight. The only peeps who would even try multi box after this would be rmt'rs trying to cheat the grind system. Ban them when encountered.

30k players online, so that's at least 2.5k bots, 10k afk, maybe 1k multi boxing, 7.5K alts and that leaves about 9k who are actually players in space.


RMT does not hurt CCP.. seriously..

Sorry but you must be trolling as nobody can be THAT stupid ( I also suspect somebody who has been caught buying isk via a RMT and is butthurt)

Okay.. It hurts CCP because instead of somebody buying a PLEX from CCP, they are buying it from somebody else and that money does not go to CCP...

You see now, get it?

Think of all that isk that is being purchased from RMT sites.. not 1 penny goes to CCP.

Now think of all that extra revenue CCP could have if RMT did not exist and everybody who paid for isk buy purchasing a PLEX from CCP.

So tell everybody again how RMT does not hurt CCP, in turn Eve, in turn us the players?

Also I love how you have randomly plucked numbers out of arse, very entertaining :)



Let's not derail the topic, but when you RESELL Plex, CCP has already gotten their money from it in the first transaction.

Plex is not player generated after all. It just changes hands. Whether it be from Joe's isk or Joe's cash, Steve, who is selling the plex, already bought it from CCP the first time.



Okay.. let me rephrase this.

Player X buys isk from a RMT site - CCP Loses money as that person did not purchase a PLEX, whether it was CCP or any other authorised Seller.

How is that?

You still saying that RMT does not Hurt Eve?






I am saying RMT does not hurt the player. EVE doesn't factor into it. We are not EVE.

As ANY/All accounts apart from trials require a sub in some for of fashion, it doesn't have any bearing on yours or my daily activities. Therefore not up to us to decide.

But if that RMTer made the isk, and decided to do whatever he wanted with it... no, that doesn't hurt Eve.

Make a new account, go to Rookie Help, and see how many other donations happen where people shower newbies with isk. Paint your picture there and see what happens =)

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#144 - 2013-08-16 18:15:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Khergit Deserters wrote:
Not a derail I hope, but interesting. China used prisoners in lucrative internet gaming work: labour camp detainees endure hard labour by day, online 'gold farming' by night. Another argument against gold farming and RMT.



The article on this thread shows that "gold farming" is legal in Australia (and funnily enough is right next door to China).

Maybe they should have some sort of smuggler type deal where they cross the border for "legal" employment....

I just realized... those are prisoners being forced to play on the computer.

How terrible. They should stop at breaking rocks or finding the soft spot on a tank or something. How dare they be forced to play on a computer!

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Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#145 - 2013-08-16 18:35:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Murk Paradox wrote:


I am saying RMT does not hurt the player.


Yes, it does. Back during "Unholy Rage" ccp banned 2% of EVE's population for botting (and we all know botting is highly correlated to RMTing)....and watched the games overall cpu usage drop 30%. The change was noticeable for players (like me), hell CCP even has a graph somewhere showing fewer disconnects/ drops as a direct result (in a dev blog about unholy rage).

RMT injects isk into the system that would not otherwise exist (as again RMTing is highly correlated with botting, it can be assumed that without RMTing the only botting that would be done would be by the minority of botters who use botted isk for actual in game purposes). Too much isk means new players coming in trying to build and sell stuff are at a measurably higher disadvantage to veteran builders and sellers than they would naturally be.

RMT denies CCP revenue. The Revenue CCP could have gotten were it not for RMTing could have gone to more staff to add more stuff the the game faster, or could have in other ways benefited the EVE player (such as CCP lowering it's subscription price for EVE online).

It's not just game companies that get hurt by RMT.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#146 - 2013-08-16 18:39:47 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:


I just realized... those are prisoners being forced to play on the computer.

How terrible. They should stop at breaking rocks or finding the soft spot on a tank or something. How dare they be forced to play on a computer!


I guess you didn't read the linked article. Here, let me help.

Quote:
"If I couldn't complete my work quota, they would punish me physically. They would make me stand with my hands raised in the air and after I returned to my dormitory they would beat me with plastic pipes. We kept playing until we could barely see things," he said.


Yea, that sounds like a walk in the park.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#147 - 2013-08-16 18:40:11 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


I am saying RMT does not hurt the player.


Yes, it does. Back during "Unholy Rage" ccp banned 2% of EVE's population for botting (and we all know botting is highly correlated to RMTing)....and watched the games overall cpu usage drop 30%. The change was noticeable for players (like me), hell CCP even has a graph somewhere showing fewer disconnects/ drops as a direct result (in a dev blog about unholy rage)..


If you're lucky, that's the only way it hurts you. You're also giving your credit card to some complete stranger, who then buys accounts on them and then executes a chargeback to get their money back--costing both your credit card company and CCP a lot of time and money, and making CCP look terrible to the creditor. On top of that, said complete stranger involved in a shady business now has your credit card information. Good luck!

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#148 - 2013-08-16 19:09:33 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


I am saying RMT does not hurt the player.


Yes, it does. Back during "Unholy Rage" ccp banned 2% of EVE's population for botting (and we all know botting is highly correlated to RMTing)....and watched the games overall cpu usage drop 30%. The change was noticeable for players (like me), hell CCP even has a graph somewhere showing fewer disconnects/ drops as a direct result (in a dev blog about unholy rage).

RMT injects isk into the system that would not otherwise exist (as again RMTing is highly correlated with botting, it can be assumed that without RMTing the only botting that would be done would be by the minority of botters who use botted isk for actual in game purposes). Too much isk means new players coming in trying to build and sell stuff are at a measurably higher disadvantage to veteran builders and sellers than they would naturally be.

RMT denies CCP revenue. The Revenue CCP could have gotten were it not for RMTing could have gone to more staff to add more stuff the the game faster, or could have in other ways benefited the EVE player (such as CCP lowering it's subscription price for EVE online).

It's not just game companies that get hurt by RMT.



So only bots who RMT'd were banned? Could you cite that work please? I'd be interested in reading about the bots who were not RMT'ing.

So where does the isk come from that was RMT'ed? For instance, if I were to rat or run missions for 5 hours and had 200mil isk and decided I was going to sell my 200mil isk for 5 bucks to a corp member, you are saying
I injected the isk into the game?

Really?

The isk never left, it exchanged hands.

Otherwise what you are describing is what people used to call "hex editing" from older games that could turn their 1 gold piece into 999 gold pieces.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#149 - 2013-08-16 19:12:19 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


I just realized... those are prisoners being forced to play on the computer.

How terrible. They should stop at breaking rocks or finding the soft spot on a tank or something. How dare they be forced to play on a computer!


I guess you didn't read the linked article. Here, let me help.

Quote:
"If I couldn't complete my work quota, they would punish me physically. They would make me stand with my hands raised in the air and after I returned to my dormitory they would beat me with plastic pipes. We kept playing until we could barely see things," he said.


Yea, that sounds like a walk in the park.



You do realize they are prisoners in a communist country right? In a democratic society you forfeit your rights when you break the law and we are talking about an environment way way worse.

So yes, I did read the article. It is about prisoners in a hard labor camp. Law breaking sucks, I would suggest not doing it.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#150 - 2013-08-16 19:14:45 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


I am saying RMT does not hurt the player.


Yes, it does. Back during "Unholy Rage" ccp banned 2% of EVE's population for botting (and we all know botting is highly correlated to RMTing)....and watched the games overall cpu usage drop 30%. The change was noticeable for players (like me), hell CCP even has a graph somewhere showing fewer disconnects/ drops as a direct result (in a dev blog about unholy rage)..


If you're lucky, that's the only way it hurts you. You're also giving your credit card to some complete stranger, who then buys accounts on them and then executes a chargeback to get their money back--costing both your credit card company and CCP a lot of time and money, and making CCP look terrible to the creditor. On top of that, said complete stranger involved in a shady business now has your credit card information. Good luck!



My point is that if you RMT your isk, my daily gameplay doesn't notice whether you sold the isk for your own profit or showered a rookie with that isk.

Otherwise scams would not be tolerated. Since they are, and in fact encouraged, and we have a market based on players actions... isk is going to trade hands in a myriad of ways.

Paypal and other backroom deals are only a way to cast social damage on a player. Because in the end I cannot tell you what you can or cannot do with your isk.

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Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#151 - 2013-08-16 19:17:26 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:



So only bots who RMT'd were banned?


I started top reply then stopped myself, because you're doing what you usually do. You know I didn't say any such thing, I typed plain English and never once suggested the thing I just quoted from you. You get lost in the details (skewed by your own imo rather ocd perceptions) and all it ever does is end up in a stupid circular argument. As I don't have the patience of Tippia, i'm not playing lol.
Kyt Thrace
Lightspeed Enterprises
Goonswarm Federation
#152 - 2013-08-16 19:20:24 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:


For instance, if I were to rat or run missions for 5 hours and had 200mil isk and decided I was going to sell my 200mil isk for 5 bucks to a corp member,


That is RMT & breaks the EULA that you accepted when you play this game. You should be banned & all you stuff taken by CCP.

End of Story :P

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#153 - 2013-08-16 19:33:12 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
The article on this thread shows that "gold farming" is legal in Australia (and funnily enough is right next door to China).


I suggest you look at a world map.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#154 - 2013-08-16 19:33:20 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:



So only bots who RMT'd were banned?


I started top reply then stopped myself, because you're doing what you usually do. You know I didn't say any such thing, I typed plain English and never once suggested the thing I just quoted from you. You get lost in the details (skewed by your own imo rather ocd perceptions) and all it ever does is end up in a stupid circular argument. As I don't have the patience of Tippia, i'm not playing lol.



But you were using that reply to what "I" said. You used some obscure reference to bans for botting in a discussion talking about what live people do.

So yea, we can call it there as you pulled something from left field that doesn't apply.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#155 - 2013-08-16 19:36:14 UTC
Kyt Thrace wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


For instance, if I were to rat or run missions for 5 hours and had 200mil isk and decided I was going to sell my 200mil isk for 5 bucks to a corp member,


That is RMT & breaks the EULA that you accepted when you play this game. You should be banned & all you stuff taken by CCP.

End of Story :P



I agree, but that isn't the argument. Nowhere is that isk "injected" nor is your gameplay hampered.

(This example is NOT indication of me doing any of the actions in this discussion).

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Kyt Thrace
Lightspeed Enterprises
Goonswarm Federation
#156 - 2013-08-16 19:37:17 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:

But if that RMTer made the isk, and decided to do whatever he wanted with it... no, that doesn't hurt Eve.


You just do not get it do you.

You just can NOT do whatever you want in this game because this game does not belong to you.

CCP owns this game, owns all your characters, owns all your stuff.

As a player, you RENT this game from CCP. They provide you with an account & they give you certain freedoms to do what you want with this account as long as:

YOU FOLLOW THE EULA.

If you BREAK THE EULA, CCP has the right to take the game from you.

RMT IS BREAKING THE EULA, so CCP will take the game from you, you lose it all. :P

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#157 - 2013-08-16 19:38:32 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
The article on this thread shows that "gold farming" is legal in Australia (and funnily enough is right next door to China).


I suggest you look at a world map.


Why? You do not know Australia isn't that far south of Asia? Did you know that Australia has a HUGE import/export industry that is based on 2nd hand products directly shipped over that pond?

Can you even guess as to why?

Maybe it isn't me who should look at that world map...

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#158 - 2013-08-16 19:39:31 UTC
Kyt Thrace wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:

But if that RMTer made the isk, and decided to do whatever he wanted with it... no, that doesn't hurt Eve.


You just do not get it do you.

You just can NOT do whatever you want in this game because this game does not belong to you.

CCP owns this game, owns all your characters, owns all your stuff.

As a player, you RENT this game from CCP. They provide you with an account & they give you certain freedoms to do what you want with this account as long as:

YOU FOLLOW THE EULA.

If you BREAK THE EULA, CCP has the right to take the game from you.

RMT IS BREAKING THE EULA, so CCP will take the game from you, you lose it all. :P



The argument is not if RMT follows the EULA or not. Pay attention please.

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Kyt Thrace
Lightspeed Enterprises
Goonswarm Federation
#159 - 2013-08-16 19:47:55 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Kyt Thrace wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:

But if that RMTer made the isk, and decided to do whatever he wanted with it... no, that doesn't hurt Eve.


You just do not get it do you.

You just can NOT do whatever you want in this game because this game does not belong to you.

CCP owns this game, owns all your characters, owns all your stuff.

As a player, you RENT this game from CCP. They provide you with an account & they give you certain freedoms to do what you want with this account as long as:

YOU FOLLOW THE EULA.

If you BREAK THE EULA, CCP has the right to take the game from you.

RMT IS BREAKING THE EULA, so CCP will take the game from you, you lose it all. :P



The argument is not if RMT follows the EULA or not. Pay attention please.



You still do not get it. Why talk or argue about RMTing when you cannot do it?

Sounds like you want to be able to play a video game and sell your in-game currency for real life money.

Instead of getting off your lazy a$$ and getting a real life job & then playing a video game for entertainment.

GROW UP OR GO BACK TO World of Warcraft :P

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#160 - 2013-08-16 19:51:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Kyt Thrace wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Kyt Thrace wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:

But if that RMTer made the isk, and decided to do whatever he wanted with it... no, that doesn't hurt Eve.


You just do not get it do you.

You just can NOT do whatever you want in this game because this game does not belong to you.

CCP owns this game, owns all your characters, owns all your stuff.

As a player, you RENT this game from CCP. They provide you with an account & they give you certain freedoms to do what you want with this account as long as:

YOU FOLLOW THE EULA.

If you BREAK THE EULA, CCP has the right to take the game from you.

RMT IS BREAKING THE EULA, so CCP will take the game from you, you lose it all. :P



The argument is not if RMT follows the EULA or not. Pay attention please.



You still do not get it. Why talk or argue about RMTing when you cannot do it?

Sounds like you want to be able to play a video game and sell your in-game currency for real life money.

Instead of getting off your lazy a$$ and getting a real life job & then playing a video game for entertainment.

GROW UP OR GO BACK TO World of Warcraft :P



Again, pay attention. I do not RMT, nor do I condone it. I even put that in parenthesis earlier to make sure no one would think I did.

I'm not even space rich either, I'm always buying and whelping t2 and t3 cruisers =(

I'm lucky if I can maintain 800mil isk.

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