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If AFK cloaking and log in traps are removed, what is left for attacking nullsec bots?
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Heather Tsukaya
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-08-15 22:38:30 UTC
There are a lot of suggestion threads demanding that "something be done" about AFK cloaking.

I also saw a thread saying that the ability to log in trap someone is also an imbalanced mechanic.

However if AFK cloaking and log in traps are both removed, then what methods remain to hunt bots ratting in nullsec?

Right now AFK cloaking gives someone the ability to shut down illegal automated ratting in a nullsec system. Either the bot manager tells the bots to ignore the afk cloaked neutral, which could lead to the bots potentially getting dropped by blockops, or the bots are unable to farm in that system, leading to a loss in RMT revenue for the bot manager.

For those of you who are suggested some sort of "cloak jammer" be added as an infrastructure upgrade to sov nullsec, what mechanic should replace afk cloaking for shutting down or hunting down bots ratting in nullsec?
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2013-08-15 23:38:47 UTC
you could also report it via ingame petitions- excuse me, support tickets. It does work. Used it myself before.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#3 - 2013-08-15 23:48:06 UTC
Nice try selling this as a way to combat botting.

What would be left is a little thing I like to call 'consensual PvP'.

While this is EVE, and Non-consensual is allowed, it's not the only way. Try finding folks looking for a fight
Heather Tsukaya
Doomheim
#4 - 2013-08-15 23:59:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Heather Tsukaya
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Nice try selling this as a way to combat botting.

What would be left is a little thing I like to call 'consensual PvP'.

While this is EVE, and Non-consensual is allowed, it's not the only way. Try finding folks looking for a fight

Obviously non consensual PvP will never be removed from eve.

So what I'm asking is, if afk cloaking is removed, what non consensual PvP method should be used to engage or scare off *ahem* "enthusiastic career nullsec ratters."
Corun Deluse
Japanese Capacitor Company
#5 - 2013-08-16 00:07:22 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Nice try selling this as a way to combat botting.

What would be left is a little thing I like to call 'consensual PvP'.

While this is EVE, and Non-consensual is allowed, it's not the only way. Try finding folks looking for a fight


(Please read this in the aura voice)

Welcome to EVE.

Please be aware that by pressing the undock button you are expressing your consent to PvP. You have been warned.
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-08-16 00:10:03 UTC
Heather Tsukaya wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Nice try selling this as a way to combat botting.

What would be left is a little thing I like to call 'consensual PvP'.

While this is EVE, and Non-consensual is allowed, it's not the only way. Try finding folks looking for a fight

Obviously non consensual PvP will never be removed from eve.

So what I'm asking is, if afk cloaking is removed, what non consensual PvP method should be used to engage or scare off *ahem* "enthusiastic career nullsec ratters."

AFK cloaking isn't the only way to engage or scare "enthusiastic career nullsec ratters". you could actually try showing up and killing them. you dont even need a cloak, or to be AFK. And you get this cool little thing called a killmail to show all of your friends.

If you believe the pilot is truly botting, report him. He will get banned. which is much worse punishment than anything a player could bring down on him.
Heather Tsukaya
Doomheim
#7 - 2013-08-16 00:10:37 UTC
Rowells wrote:
you could also report it via ingame petitions- excuse me, support tickets. It does work. Used it myself before.

Well lets replace bots with people here.

Lets say I want to strike at an empire's ratting infrastructure. Currently this can be done with afk cloaking. The ratters are forced to stop ratting in the system, or face the possibility of a PvP engagement.

If AFK cloaking is removed as a mechanic, then what methods should replace it for attacking an empire's ratting infrastructure?
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2013-08-16 00:12:33 UTC
Heather Tsukaya wrote:
Rowells wrote:
you could also report it via ingame petitions- excuse me, support tickets. It does work. Used it myself before.

Well lets replace bots with people here.

Lets say I want to strike at an empire's ratting infrastructure. Currently this can be done with afk cloaking. The ratters are forced to stop ratting in the system, or face the possibility of a PvP engagement.

If AFK cloaking is removed as a mechanic, then what methods should replace it for attacking an empire's ratting infrastructure?

you don't even need a cloak to scare them. Heck a rifter will scare most of them into their holes.
Heather Tsukaya
Doomheim
#9 - 2013-08-16 00:19:19 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Heather Tsukaya wrote:
Rowells wrote:
you could also report it via ingame petitions- excuse me, support tickets. It does work. Used it myself before.

Well lets replace bots with people here.

Lets say I want to strike at an empire's ratting infrastructure. Currently this can be done with afk cloaking. The ratters are forced to stop ratting in the system, or face the possibility of a PvP engagement.

If AFK cloaking is removed as a mechanic, then what methods should replace it for attacking an empire's ratting infrastructure?

you don't even need a cloak to scare them. Heck a rifter will scare most of them into their holes.

First you scare your prey into its hole, then when it eventually leaves its hole you pounce.

AFK cloaking gives the predator the ability to remain in the system until its prey pokes their head out.

If AFK cloaking is removed, then what system should replace it to allow the predator to hunt?
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2013-08-16 00:31:37 UTC
Heather Tsukaya wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Heather Tsukaya wrote:
Rowells wrote:
you could also report it via ingame petitions- excuse me, support tickets. It does work. Used it myself before.

Well lets replace bots with people here.

Lets say I want to strike at an empire's ratting infrastructure. Currently this can be done with afk cloaking. The ratters are forced to stop ratting in the system, or face the possibility of a PvP engagement.

If AFK cloaking is removed as a mechanic, then what methods should replace it for attacking an empire's ratting infrastructure?

you don't even need a cloak to scare them. Heck a rifter will scare most of them into their holes.

First you scare your prey into its hole, then when it eventually leaves its hole you pounce.

AFK cloaking gives the predator the ability to remain in the system until its prey pokes their head out.

If AFK cloaking is removed, then what system should replace it to allow the predator to hunt?

you couldn't remain in the system before? I didn't realize the system would kick you out for being there too long. Oh wait, that's what pilots do. Enemy fleet shows up and A: kills you or B: scares you off, which in that case means, they earned the right to keep on ratting, mining, fly in circles, or whatever it is they wanted to do. And if you are decent enough you could avoid them through normal methods for an extended period of time: constant warping, bouncing safespots. for the most part many risk-averse pilots still won't come out while you are in system. and not just because they are afraid of you, but because of the potential you have to bring in a larger force than their own defenses and escalate the situation further. That's one reason why people can be so afraid of even a 2 week old pilot.
Heather Tsukaya
Doomheim
#11 - 2013-08-16 00:36:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Heather Tsukaya
Rowells wrote:
Heather Tsukaya wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Heather Tsukaya wrote:
Rowells wrote:
you could also report it via ingame petitions- excuse me, support tickets. It does work. Used it myself before.

Well lets replace bots with people here.

Lets say I want to strike at an empire's ratting infrastructure. Currently this can be done with afk cloaking. The ratters are forced to stop ratting in the system, or face the possibility of a PvP engagement.

If AFK cloaking is removed as a mechanic, then what methods should replace it for attacking an empire's ratting infrastructure?

you don't even need a cloak to scare them. Heck a rifter will scare most of them into their holes.

First you scare your prey into its hole, then when it eventually leaves its hole you pounce.

AFK cloaking gives the predator the ability to remain in the system until its prey pokes their head out.

If AFK cloaking is removed, then what system should replace it to allow the predator to hunt?

you couldn't remain in the system before? I didn't realize the system would kick you out for being there too long. Oh wait, that's what pilots do. Enemy fleet shows up and A: kills you or B: scares you off, which in that case means, they earned the right to keep on ratting, mining, fly in circles, or whatever it is they wanted to do. And if you are decent enough you could avoid them through normal methods for an extended period of time: constant warping, bouncing safespots. for the most part many risk-averse pilots still won't come out while you are in system. and not just because they are afraid of you, but because of the potential you have to bring in a larger force than their own defenses and escalate the situation further. That's one reason why people can be so afraid of even a 2 week old pilot.

Lets say the prey in this case is very patient. They are willing to wait several days before resuming their ratting activities.

AFK cloaking is the ONLY way to remain in a system for several days on end uninterrupted. You can't remain at your computer for several days on end, due to being a human being that needs to sleep eat and drink.

So I'm asking you, what method should be used to catch prey like this, that hides in its hole the moment a neutral hits local, and is willing to remain in its hole for days on end?

EDIT: Basically no one has answered my question yet. My question is: If not AFK cloaking, then how to hunt down and kill ratting bots?
Yes I know you can report them, but I'm asking how to destroy their ships. So far no one has answered this question. The question I'm actually asking.
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2013-08-16 00:53:44 UTC
Heather Tsukaya wrote:
Lets say the prey in this case is very patient. They are willing to wait several days before resuming their ratting activities.

AFK cloaking is the ONLY way to remain in a system for several days on end uninterrupted. You can't remain at your computer for several days on end, due to being a human being that needs to sleep eat and drink.

So I'm asking you, what method should be used to catch prey like this, that hides in its hole the moment a neutral hits local, and is willing to remain in its hole for days on end?
we have this thing called a watchlist, it lets you know when certain pilots log on. if your on when he gets on, go to the system and resume disruptive operations.

Or have a small team of buddies take shifts doing the job.

And what you seem to be asking for is a way to be safe, and have a lasting impact on someone else who is active (or at least at their computer staring at it, still counts as time spent) while you are away doing whatever it is you like to do when you arent playing EVE. You are simply asking for a way to exert little to no effort or ingenuity, while still having the impact that an active, working player has. You seem want to be able to do that little rifter pilots job, without any of the effort, and microscopically smaller risk. You're also assuming that the prey is going to be at their computer the whole time waiting for you to leave, which as you stated before, is unreasonable.

And technically, if your prey is waiting, not ratting, then your mission is a success:
Heather Tsukaya wrote:
Lets say I want to strike at an empire's ratting infrastructure. Currently this can be done with afk cloaking. The ratters are forced to stop ratting in the system, or face the possibility of a PvP engagement.
But we have gone way off topic here. You're post was about how to deal with botters if "AFK cloaking goes away", to which i informed you of the existing mechanics in place to deal with it. Which in my opinion is much easier than camping a system. you could spend that time in your rifter in another system working your disruption operations where they are needed.
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#13 - 2013-08-16 00:58:03 UTC
Heather Tsukaya wrote:

Lets say the prey in this case is very patient. They are willing to wait several days before resuming their ratting activities.

AFK cloaking is the ONLY way to remain in a system for several days on end uninterrupted. You can't remain at your computer for several days on end, due to being a human being that needs to sleep eat and drink.

So I'm asking you, what method should be used to catch prey like this, that hides in its hole the moment a neutral hits local, and is willing to remain in its hole for days on end?

EDIT: Basically no one has answered my question yet. My question is: If not AFK cloaking, then how to hunt down and kill ratting bots?
Yes I know you can report them, but I'm asking how to destroy their ships. So far no one has answered this question. The question I'm actually asking.

Remove local. If the Bot doesn't know you are there unless it sees you then how can it know when to get safe until it is too late? AFK cloaking, log on traps, and bots are results of the effortless perfect intel system. Remove local and all those go away. Then you are left with a battle of skill: The hunter now has an opportunity to use skill slip past the prey's defenses unnoticed and the prey has a chance to use skill to evade the hunter as the hunter can't tell if the prey is in local.
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2013-08-16 01:06:06 UTC
Heather Tsukaya wrote:
[EDIT: Basically no one has answered my question yet. My question is: If not AFK cloaking, then how to hunt down and kill ratting bots?
Yes I know you can report them, but I'm asking how to destroy their ships. So far no one has answered this question. The question I'm actually asking.

well you (as a player) can't know for sure if they are botting, or just really prepared and alert. That's what the tickets are for. Report suspected bot. CCP investigates client for code manipulations and "bot-like" patterns. If it is a bot, it gets banned. If it's not, then your question is invalid as you are now trying to engage an active player who may or may not be using similar methods as the rifter pilot i mentioned earlier to evade your aggression.
Heather Tsukaya
Doomheim
#15 - 2013-08-16 01:06:15 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
Heather Tsukaya wrote:

Lets say the prey in this case is very patient. They are willing to wait several days before resuming their ratting activities.

AFK cloaking is the ONLY way to remain in a system for several days on end uninterrupted. You can't remain at your computer for several days on end, due to being a human being that needs to sleep eat and drink.

So I'm asking you, what method should be used to catch prey like this, that hides in its hole the moment a neutral hits local, and is willing to remain in its hole for days on end?

EDIT: Basically no one has answered my question yet. My question is: If not AFK cloaking, then how to hunt down and kill ratting bots?
Yes I know you can report them, but I'm asking how to destroy their ships. So far no one has answered this question. The question I'm actually asking.

Remove local. If the Bot doesn't know you are there unless it sees you then how can it know when to get safe until it is too late? AFK cloaking, log on traps, and bots are results of the effortless perfect intel system. Remove local and all those go away. Then you are left with a battle of skill: The hunter now has an opportunity to use skill slip past the prey's defenses unnoticed and the prey has a chance to use skill to evade the hunter as the hunter can't tell if the prey is in local.

If local channel lists removed from nullsec, similar to how they're removed in wspace, I'd be completely OK with cloaking fuel, cloaking jammers, or any number of other anti afk cloak features.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#16 - 2013-08-16 01:14:38 UTC
Heather Tsukaya wrote:
Lets say the prey in this case is very patient. They are willing to wait several days before resuming their ratting activities.

AFK cloaking is the ONLY way to remain in a system for several days on end uninterrupted. You can't remain at your computer for several days on end, due to being a human being that needs to sleep eat and drink.


The prey can't stay at their computer for days on end either. So it balances out.

Heather Tsukaya wrote:
EDIT: Basically no one has answered my question yet. My question is: If not AFK cloaking, then how to hunt down and kill ratting bots?
Yes I know you can report them, but I'm asking how to destroy their ships. So far no one has answered this question. The question I'm actually asking.


You already have the answer to the question you think you are asking: you go in with comat ships and shoot the prey.

The question you are actually asking is, "how can I have an impact on someone else's game play when I myself am not actually playing the game."

The answer to that is: petition the exuberant career ratters and miners, and CCP will take care of them.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Heather Tsukaya
Doomheim
#17 - 2013-08-16 01:16:49 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Heather Tsukaya wrote:
Lets say the prey in this case is very patient. They are willing to wait several days before resuming their ratting activities.

AFK cloaking is the ONLY way to remain in a system for several days on end uninterrupted. You can't remain at your computer for several days on end, due to being a human being that needs to sleep eat and drink.


The prey can't stay at their computer for days on end either. So it balances out.

Yes they can. The prey is using illegal automation in many cases. This allows them to be aware off who is in local 23/7 and resume ratting the second local is clear.
Heather Tsukaya
Doomheim
#18 - 2013-08-16 01:24:22 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Heather Tsukaya wrote:
EDIT: Basically no one has answered my question yet. My question is: If not AFK cloaking, then how to hunt down and kill ratting bots?
Yes I know you can report them, but I'm asking how to destroy their ships. So far no one has answered this question. The question I'm actually asking.


You already have the answer to the question you think you are asking: you go in with comat ships and shoot the prey.

This isn't possible. The only way to shoot at the prey with combat ships, is to have a neutral in local for 15 or more hours a day every single day.

The only way to do this is to afk cloak.

If afk cloak wasn't possible, then you would need seven different human beings willing to watch that system for two hours a day every single day.

That's right you would need seven different human being to stop one group of bots from ratting in one system.
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2013-08-16 01:38:23 UTC
Heather Tsukaya wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Heather Tsukaya wrote:
EDIT: Basically no one has answered my question yet. My question is: If not AFK cloaking, then how to hunt down and kill ratting bots?
Yes I know you can report them, but I'm asking how to destroy their ships. So far no one has answered this question. The question I'm actually asking.


You already have the answer to the question you think you are asking: you go in with comat ships and shoot the prey.

This isn't possible. The only way to shoot at the prey with combat ships, is to have a neutral in local for 15 or more hours a day every single day.

The only way to do this is to afk cloak.

If afk cloak wasn't possible, then you would need seven different human beings willing to watch that system for two hours a day every single day.

That's right you would need seven different human being to stop one group of bots from ratting in one system.

Again, your asking for something that isn't logical.

Botter A has manipulated code in order to be away from his computer yet still do an activity, and this code allows him to have perfect reaction.

That's why the tickets are there. players aren't able to enforce any kind of punishment on him (being the un-biased and morally straight judges that we are) so CCP makes it so they cant bot anymore.

let's apply your train of thought to another situation:

Player A is in a station while player B is camping outside.

Player A calls player B a (insert racial slur here)

Player B can't get into station or get player A to come out and enact righteous justice upon him.

what should player B do now?

PETITION

we can even put this in a kind of template form:

Player A is breaking the rules (EULA)

Player B wants to punish player A for his crimes.

The way in which player A is breaking the rules does not allow player B to punish him in any form.

What should player B do?

PETITION

Thats why these petitions exist. to allow players to help CCP to enforce the rules.

And honestly, as a player, you are the last person that should be making the final determinations as to whether or not someone is a botter. What rules are you breaking (using powers only reserved for CCP) to find that out with 100% accuracy?
Heather Tsukaya
Doomheim
#20 - 2013-08-16 02:02:29 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Heather Tsukaya wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Heather Tsukaya wrote:
EDIT: Basically no one has answered my question yet. My question is: If not AFK cloaking, then how to hunt down and kill ratting bots?
Yes I know you can report them, but I'm asking how to destroy their ships. So far no one has answered this question. The question I'm actually asking.


You already have the answer to the question you think you are asking: you go in with comat ships and shoot the prey.

This isn't possible. The only way to shoot at the prey with combat ships, is to have a neutral in local for 15 or more hours a day every single day.

The only way to do this is to afk cloak.

If afk cloak wasn't possible, then you would need seven different human beings willing to watch that system for two hours a day every single day.

That's right you would need seven different human being to stop one group of bots from ratting in one system.

Again, your asking for something that isn't logical.

[bugging out removed]

What isn't logical about wanting a way to kill the ships of people who are ratting with automation?
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