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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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[Proposal] Fix Skill Disparity Between Carriers and Dreads.

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AtheistOfFail
Totality Squad
Vyraj.
#1 - 2013-08-15 17:58:37 UTC  |  Edited by: AtheistOfFail
There is a serious skill disparity between carriers and dreads. Carrier's requirements include jump skills beyond just jump drive operation and NO TRIAGE while dreads require siege and NO JUMP SKILLS.

Even with the lower requirements of Capital Ships III as opposed to Capital Ships IV factored, jumping in an archon requires 139d as opposed to 105d for a revelation on a blank character.

What exactly makes a carrier a whopping 32% better that justifies such a different set of skill requirements for "jumping"? If a carrier's main idea in combat is to "repair friendlies", shouldn't triage be a requirement instead of jump skills?

How about just making it even across the board with either triage required for carriers and NO JUMP SKILLS or dreads with jump skills and NO SIEGE? Since the main purpose of odyssey skill remix was to make "cross-training" capital ships faster, shouldn't you it be either one of the above?

Post below if you support either one. Seriously CCP, can this be fixed? It is killing my OCD.
ISD Gallifreyan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#2 - 2013-08-15 18:08:16 UTC
I have moved your thread to the Features and Ideas section where it is more likely to attract the attention of a Dev

ISD Gallifreyan

Lt. Commander

Community Communication Liaisons (CCL)

Interstellar Services Department
AtheistOfFail
Totality Squad
Vyraj.
#3 - 2013-08-15 18:10:33 UTC
ISD Gallifreyan wrote:
I have moved your thread to the Features and Ideas section where it is more likely to attract the attention of a Dev


That was like 2 minutes flat. I love you guys. Seriously.
Sinigr Shadowsong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-08-15 18:48:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Sinigr Shadowsong
Carriers in general are much more versatile and useful than Dreads.

Just basic usages of a Carrier:

- Triage in fleet
- Repping sov structures
- Sentry PvP fleet
- Sentry PvE farm
- Moving stuff around
- Undock fights

Keep in mind that Carriers have longest jump distance of all capital ships. And carriers are twice cheaper than dreads.

Dreads are rather specialised and rarely used outside of sov grind and large fleet fights (blap dreads).
AtheistOfFail
Totality Squad
Vyraj.
#5 - 2013-08-15 19:25:55 UTC  |  Edited by: AtheistOfFail
- Triage in fleet
- Requires TRIAGE
- May need JUMP SKILLS to get to target system

- Repping sov structures
- TRIAGE could be of some limited use.
- JUMP SKILLS may of use if it's out of system.

- Sentry PvP fleet
- Same as below except jump skills would get you into the fleet system.

- Sentry PvE farm
- JUMP SKILLS would get you into your PvE system.
- TRIAGE would be useless.

- Moving stuff around (See PS)
- JUMP SKILLS required.

- Undock fights
- TRIAGE could be of limited use.
- JUMP SKILLS would be useless here.

My main pet peeve is that the "carrier module" is not required for piloting the ship unlike the "dread module" which is a requirement for flying the dread. If we follow the purpose of the ships, triage should be required as siege is. The purpose of a carrier is to repair other ships, otherwise it would not be the only ship capable of using "triage" and wouldn't have the bonuses to remote repair.

PS: It's not like we don't have a set of ships devoted to moving your stuff around, they're called Jump Freighters.
Vrenth
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-08-15 22:54:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Vrenth
AtheistOfFail wrote:
- Triage in fleet
- Requires TRIAGE
- May need JUMP SKILLS to get to target system

- Repping sov structures
- TRIAGE could be of some limited use.
- JUMP SKILLS may of use if it's out of system.

- Sentry PvP fleet
- Same as below except jump skills would get you into the fleet system.

- Sentry PvE farm
- JUMP SKILLS would get you into your PvE system.
- TRIAGE would be useless.

- Moving stuff around (See PS)
- JUMP SKILLS required.

- Undock fights
- TRIAGE could be of limited use.
- JUMP SKILLS would be useless here.

My main pet peeve is that the "carrier module" is not required for piloting the ship unlike the "dread module" which is a requirement for flying the dread. If we follow the purpose of the ships, triage should be required as siege is. The purpose of a carrier is to repair other ships, otherwise it would not be the only ship capable of using "triage" and wouldn't have the bonuses to remote repair.

PS: It's not like we don't have a set of ships devoted to moving your stuff around, they're called Jump Freighters.


The carrier is one of the most versatile ships in 0.0 There is a reason many refer to it as a swiss army knife. It's carrying ability is more focused than a jump freighter. It functions alot like it's name implies. It is meant to carry combat ready ships with it, and allow re-shipping into these in space. It can also repair ships very quickly with its RR bonuses, even out of triage.

It serves a specific role, but due to its large drone fielding capabilities, it is formidable in combat as well as logistics. The reason it requires more training is because it can do 5x more than dreads. Your argument is essentially the same as the people who are complaining about the skill training requirements for command ships from people who are wanting to use them as cheap T3/buffed up HACs. They can full multiple roles, so their training so more intensive. Talk to the dread pilots who trained up to fly the Nag when it was dual weapon....
AtheistOfFail
Totality Squad
Vyraj.
#7 - 2013-08-15 23:15:10 UTC  |  Edited by: AtheistOfFail
Vrenth wrote:

The carrier is one of the most versatile ships in 0.0 There is a reason many refer to it as a swiss army knife. It's carrying ability is more focused than a jump freighter. It functions alot like it's name implies. It is meant to carry combat ready ships with it, and allow re-shipping into these in space. It can also repair ships very quickly with its RR bonuses, even out of triage.

It serves a specific role, but due to its large drone fielding capabilities, it is formidable in combat as well as logistics. The reason it requires more training is because it can do 5x more than dreads. Your argument is essentially the same as the people who are complaining about the skill training requirements for command ships from people who are wanting to use them as cheap T3/buffed up HACs. They can full multiple roles, so their training so more intensive. Talk to the dread pilots who trained up to fly the Nag when it was dual weapon....


Those pilots still have their ships and with their autocannon skills, their ships are still useful. CCP's new stance of "let's throw more useless skills in" is not the correct approach. If I'm wrong, perfect, i'll just get my violin.

PSS: Can we actually get T2 blaster requirement for ventures? They can be fitted for PvP with blasters which is not their primary purpose but makes them very useful. It will be just like carriers of today.
Cade Windstalker
#8 - 2013-08-16 00:02:02 UTC
If you're going to go from a blank character to Carrier or Dread then at least go for a basic fitting instead of just sitting in the thing. I don't know anyone who'd let someone else fly a Dread or Carrier without jump skills and at least either Fighters or Triage for a Carrier and Capital guns for a Dread, never mind the capital tanking modules.
AtheistOfFail
Totality Squad
Vyraj.
#9 - 2013-08-16 00:47:45 UTC  |  Edited by: AtheistOfFail
Cade Windstalker wrote:
If you're going to go from a blank character to Carrier or Dread then at least go for a basic fitting instead of just sitting in the thing. I don't know anyone who'd let someone else fly a Dread or Carrier without jump skills and at least either Fighters or Triage for a Carrier and Capital guns for a Dread, never mind the capital tanking modules.


Which is why either jump skills should be added to the dreads or removed from the carriers. Same thing with triage, either add it to carriers or remove it from dreads.

PS: There is one actual use of carriers ingame that does not require jump skills at all and that is WH defense operations.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#10 - 2013-08-16 06:49:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
AtheistOfFail wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
If you're going to go from a blank character to Carrier or Dread then at least go for a basic fitting instead of just sitting in the thing. I don't know anyone who'd let someone else fly a Dread or Carrier without jump skills and at least either Fighters or Triage for a Carrier and Capital guns for a Dread, never mind the capital tanking modules.


Which is why either jump skills should be added to the dreads or removed from the carriers. Same thing with triage, either add it to carriers or remove it from dreads.

PS: There is one actual use of carriers ingame that does not require jump skills at all and that is WH defense operations.



a combat carrier does not need to triage. Dreads without siege you'd be better off buyng 2 maruaders (the second a much cheaper backup lol). Look at the damage of a torp golem with 3 BCU's and a phoenix with citadel torps no siege....they are pretty damn close.

Siege is a natural follow on to being in a fleet bs for the months building up to dread. Its not a stretch...both shoot high slot weapons. Triage needs logisitcis and not all have that. I avoided like it the plague until I hunkered down for my cap training. I tend to not roll "healer" classes in games. I do it as a favor to all fellow players...I suck at healz lol. If a carrier can't rep it can at least drone/fighter spam.


has 0.0 changed that much since left I have to ask about fuel...or skill requirements in general? Most homes I was in the cap requirements for skills to fly on ops were above and beyond base need of the ships. Navigation and any fuel skills especially. Dreads were in this setup up as well, they didn't skip out.

FC's planned fuel needs based on lowest common denominator when I was out there. How many jumps, how long the range and whats the most gas the worst gas guzzler will use to hit several systems with a final jump home..

All this at alliance spec'd skill levels (higher than bare minimum) plugged into the calcs and voila....the magic number cap pilots were told for fuel need at the minimum. The magic part of the number happens when you get a tard with low skill on the op who runs out mid op. PIsses off fc's and fleetmates in seconds flat.
AtheistOfFail
Totality Squad
Vyraj.
#11 - 2013-08-16 07:31:34 UTC  |  Edited by: AtheistOfFail
Zan Shiro wrote:
AtheistOfFail wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
If you're going to go from a blank character to Carrier or Dread then at least go for a basic fitting instead of just sitting in the thing. I don't know anyone who'd let someone else fly a Dread or Carrier without jump skills and at least either Fighters or Triage for a Carrier and Capital guns for a Dread, never mind the capital tanking modules.


Which is why either jump skills should be added to the dreads or removed from the carriers. Same thing with triage, either add it to carriers or remove it from dreads.

PS: There is one actual use of carriers ingame that does not require jump skills at all and that is WH defense operations.



a combat carrier does not need to triage. Dreads without siege you'd be better off buyng 2 maruaders (the second a much cheaper backup lol). Look at the damage of a torp golem with 3 BCU's and a phoenix with citadel torps no siege....they are pretty damn close.

Siege is a natural follow on to being in a fleet bs for the months building up to dread. Its not a stretch...both shoot high slot weapons. Triage needs logisitcis and not all have that. I avoided like it the plague until I hunkered down for my cap training. I tend to not roll "healer" classes in games. I do it as a favor to all fellow players...I suck at healz lol. If a carrier can't rep it can at least drone/fighter spam.


has 0.0 changed that much since left I have to ask about fuel...or skill requirements in general? Most homes I was in the cap requirements for skills to fly on ops were above and beyond base need of the ships. Navigation and any fuel skills especially. Dreads were in this setup up as well, they didn't skip out.

FC's planned fuel needs based on lowest common denominator when I was out there. How many jumps, how long the range and whats the most gas the worst gas guzzler will use to hit several systems with a final jump home..

All this at alliance spec'd skill levels (higher than bare minimum) plugged into the calcs and voila....the magic number cap pilots were told for fuel need at the minimum. The magic part of the number happens when you get a tard with low skill on the op who runs out mid op. PIsses off fc's and fleetmates in seconds flat.


I agree completely which is why dreads should require the jump skills as well or they should be removed from carrier requirements. Since all capitals should be capable of doing the same and all.

Basically carriers are now special snowflakes that require jump skills as a logistics boat. I'd like to point out supercarriers which are not logistics ships and are not capable of docking so you can't move your stuff in them also have this stupid requirement. Shouldn't a supercarrier require fighter bombers instead of jump skills since their main purpose is "anti-capital work"?

PS: This proposal would of course include the "If you could fly it before" clause, so if you already injected the skill, it would not affect you.