These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Lost 1.5 billion on Margin Trading Scam
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Alicia Aishai
Perkone
Caldari State
#61 - 2013-08-15 09:53:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Alicia Aishai
Sable Moran wrote:

You are suggesting CCP to add a mechanism which can be used to add DB server load on demand? Now shuuurely that wont be abused.



This comment doesn't make any sense. There are tons of on-demand data request to the server, one being asking for market price of any item.

Is requesting market prices abused to put the server down? Are you suggesting to remove the market from the game?
Dorrann
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#62 - 2013-08-15 10:18:07 UTC
If you place a buy order, the value of that order could be removed from your wallet and placed in holding until the order is filled or expires. Problem Solved.
If you cant pay, you cant place the order.
LoopHole Closed.
embrel
BamBam Inc.
#63 - 2013-08-15 10:23:22 UTC
Dorrann wrote:
If you place a buy order, the value of that order could be removed from your wallet and placed in holding until the order is filled or expires. Problem Solved.
If you cant pay, you cant place the order.
LoopHole Closed.


basically making the skill margin trading useless.
embrel
BamBam Inc.
#64 - 2013-08-15 10:32:46 UTC
Alicia Aishai wrote:
embrel wrote:
Alicia Aishai wrote:
it is used by some to manipulate prices of certain items.


How? or do you mean in the scam-cases?



How? By putting a large buy order close to the sell orders giving false impression the item is in demand. This is not aimed to be a scam but manipulate the perception of supply and demand for the asset. I have seen it done, believe it or not.

I don't see why my proposal to add an option to check if an order if funded or not (example 2 above) can be controversial except if you are a scammer or a price manipulator.


the false impression issue can easily be solved by checking the market history which is already there. Also, there are external tools that might help to assess whether something is traded at different prices in other regions.

I guess this proposal could be implemented. I just don't get the why of it.

I would assume that newbs don't have the means to fall for the many of these margin-scams. Or they have bought Plex... in which case I have to smile a bit. And if non-newbs fall for scams, again, I do have a tiny smile.

Your proposal is controversial also to non-scammers as it would imply that scamming is something that needs to be limited. My question remains why you would technically limit margin-scams and not prosecute other forms of scam.

And I for one think that it is a nice feature of eve that scamming is allowed.

Scamming fits the general atmosphere of Eve.
Alicia Aishai
Perkone
Caldari State
#65 - 2013-08-15 10:52:31 UTC
embrel wrote:

Your proposal is controversial also to non-scammers as it would imply that scamming is something that needs to be limited. My question remains why you would technically limit margin-scams and not prosecute other forms of scam.

And I for one think that it is a nice feature of eve that scamming is allowed.

Scamming fits the general atmosphere of Eve.


Personally, I wouldn't care much about scamming if it didn't mean spamming of local.

I'm all favorable of ability to freely scam in EVE and indeed this is the atmosphere of the game. However I like it much better when this is really player driven (like the pirate inviting you in his corp, the director thief, etc...) rather than based on local chat spam (yes you can block spammers but they change a lot and it takes time to block all the new ones all the time...).

Nonetheless, I dislike the margin scam because I find it based on a misleading representation of the game to new (or returning) players.
embrel
BamBam Inc.
#66 - 2013-08-15 10:56:17 UTC
Alicia Aishai wrote:
[quote=embrel]
Personally, I wouldn't care much about scamming if it didn't mean spamming of local.



well, spamming's the part I don't like either. This is why I'm looking forward to Eve-in-stations where you hopefully will be able to gank spammers.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#67 - 2013-08-15 12:38:25 UTC
Alicia Aishai wrote:
Nonetheless, I dislike the margin scam because I find it based on a misleading representation of the game to new (or returning) players.


good god i need to throw together a bingo card generator for "abloobloobloo scamming" threads

"THINK OF THE NEW PLAYERS" will probably be the free space though

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#68 - 2013-08-15 18:09:43 UTC
Alicia Aishai wrote:
How? By putting a large buy order close to the sell orders giving false impression the item is in demand. This is not aimed to be a scam but manipulate the perception of supply and demand for the asset. I have seen it done, believe it or not.

I don't see why my proposal to add an option to check if an order if funded or not (example 2 above) can be controversial except if you are a scammer or a price manipulator.



Then anyone with half a brain takes a look at the market history and notices that nothing's trading at that price, and manipulation failed.

The market history only records completed transactions. An uncovered margin order does not get completed.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Darius Brinn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2013-08-15 18:46:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Darius Brinn
Azurae wrote:


btw there are sometimes cheap navy slicers for sale in contracts, just gotta be quick enough to get one. check jita for those


Oh, you're the one that spams three finished contracts of a Slicer at 1 million, and the fourth one is availiable but it's a BILLION.

I have two questions:

1) Did anybody really fall for that? I can understand people falling for marging trading, but that?
2) Do you spam manually or use a program? Because you were the sole reason I hit "Blink off" last Tuesday in Jita.

What a persistent little bugger you are.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#70 - 2013-08-15 18:53:20 UTC
Mocam wrote:
Wrong forum. Crime & Punishment, Market Discussions... Ok but GD?

As for your post - yes this uses a poorly implemented game mechanic. Yes it's been discussed before repeatedly and I imagine CCP will "eventually" get around to addressing the problem.

IMO - treat margin trading like flying a T3 - if the order collapses due to insufficient funds, they lose a skill level and must retrain it.


Been discussed repeatedly but poorly implemented?

Sounds like the textbook definition of working as intended if people fall for it repeatedly.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#71 - 2013-08-15 19:02:48 UTC
Alicia Aishai wrote:
Sable Moran wrote:

You are suggesting CCP to add a mechanism which can be used to add DB server load on demand? Now shuuurely that wont be abused.

This comment doesn't make any sense. There are tons of on-demand data request to the server, one being asking for market price of any item.

Is requesting market prices abused to put the server down? Are you suggesting to remove the market from the game?

It's more that asking the game to check the viability of every order on the market means you've just massively increased the load on the servers.

Every time you click on an item on the market to list its market orders, and every time the interface needs to update (i.e. any time you buy or sell anything, even if it's not even the currently listed item) — in other words, any time you do anything on the market, the game has to iterate through every buy order currently listed, figure out the owner, figure out which wallet is being used, figure out if it has enough ISK or not. Simply listing all the buy orders will generate as much work as selling to every order listed…

…and after all that extra work, the information will be incorrect, because between that update and the time you choose to click on an order, the amount of ISK in that wall will have changed. That “green” buy order? Yeah, it's out of ISK. That buy order listed as not being covered? It has all the ISK it ever needs behind it. The only way for it to be accurate would be for it to update constantly, which means you're now doing all the above work every second.

It doesn't really seem worth it in order to not actually fix anything.
Dominic Sezara
BIack Sun Syndicate
Independent Miners Alliance
#72 - 2013-08-16 00:34:19 UTC
Veanna Lenn wrote:
So after having last played in 2007, I decided to come back to EvE two weeks ago. Back in 2007 I lived in nullsec so you can imagine I'm not very educated on the markets.

As I was trying to get my bearings, I saw a Tag contract for half a billion. The contract had two tags in it. Normally I laugh at contracts and realize that most of them are scams anyway, but this time I was bored and buzzed from alcohol so I just right clicked to check market details, for fun (why the heck not).

I saw that there were TONS of sell orders for 600 mil. MULTIPLE buy orders for ~500 mil. I was extremely confused. This contract had TWO tags for 500 mil! I spent several minutes, not even kidding, just COUNTING the number of digits in the buy order to make sure it was 500 mil and not something else. Being buzzed didn't help with the counting.

After determining it is indeed 500 mil, I then decided to check what the hell this item is, and why it is so expensive. I googled it and saw it is an officer tag. +1 for legit. I then logged in on my alt in a different empire region. That region ALSO had buy and sell orders for ~500 mil. +1 for legit. I was now convinced each tag did indeed cost 500 mil. Why? Well, I remembered reading patch notes and remembred something about tags for sec status, which is why I figured these items were so valuable.

I bought the contract. Try to sell it... BOOM, can't, minimum quantity is 6! I am undeterred. Flying around, I find two more contracts for 500 mil each having 2 more tags. I figure these are leftover from before the patch that made them jump in value. I buy them.

Try to fill the order with my 6 tags. it vanishes. I then google the tag's name, and then add "exploit" at the end, figuring it was some sort of an exploit. I am finally taken to a forum page where Margin Trading Scam is discussed. Alas, I wish I saw that page earlier.

Lesson: Don't drink and fly EvE


Ouch, cant believe that happened. Sorry to hear that pilot!
45thtiger 0109
Pan-Intergalatic Business Community
#73 - 2013-08-16 00:52:38 UTC
Veanna Lenn wrote:
So after having last played in 2007, I decided to come back to EvE two weeks ago. Back in 2007 I lived in nullsec so you can imagine I'm not very educated on the markets.

As I was trying to get my bearings, I saw a Tag contract for half a billion. The contract had two tags in it. Normally I laugh at contracts and realize that most of them are scams anyway, but this time I was bored and buzzed from alcohol so I just right clicked to check market details, for fun (why the heck not).

I saw that there were TONS of sell orders for 600 mil. MULTIPLE buy orders for ~500 mil. I was extremely confused. This contract had TWO tags for 500 mil! I spent several minutes, not even kidding, just COUNTING the number of digits in the buy order to make sure it was 500 mil and not something else. Being buzzed didn't help with the counting.

After determining it is indeed 500 mil, I then decided to check what the hell this item is, and why it is so expensive. I googled it and saw it is an officer tag. +1 for legit. I then logged in on my alt in a different empire region. That region ALSO had buy and sell orders for ~500 mil. +1 for legit. I was now convinced each tag did indeed cost 500 mil. Why? Well, I remembered reading patch notes and remembred something about tags for sec status, which is why I figured these items were so valuable.

I bought the contract. Try to sell it... BOOM, can't, minimum quantity is 6! I am undeterred. Flying around, I find two more contracts for 500 mil each having 2 more tags. I figure these are leftover from before the patch that made them jump in value. I buy them.

Try to fill the order with my 6 tags. it vanishes. I then google the tag's name, and then add "exploit" at the end, figuring it was some sort of an exploit. I am finally taken to a forum page where Margin Trading Scam is discussed. Alas, I wish I saw that page earlier.

Lesson: Don't drink and fly EvE



Shocked oh well life dose continue in EvE Big smile

**You Have to take the good with the bad and the bad with the good.

Welcome to EvE OnLiNe**
Jose Ronald Palasialdana
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2013-08-16 22:01:51 UTC
Mocam wrote:
Wrong forum. Crime & Punishment, Market Discussions... Ok but GD?

As for your post - yes this uses a poorly implemented game mechanic. Yes it's been discussed before repeatedly and I imagine CCP will "eventually" get around to addressing the problem.

IMO - treat margin trading like flying a T3 - if the order collapses due to insufficient funds, they lose a skill level and must retrain it.


Hey Mang!

Margin trading is useful... most use it to put up alot of buy orders... knowing only some will be filled... it increases their chances for building up sikies on a fast sale.
That being said... If I have
3 BIL in sell orders
6 BIL in cash
15 BIL in buy orders (no escrow for this example)
and I for some reason am able to fill all my buy orders.... it SHOULD put me in the HOLE! but then we'd have the new player spend 10 BIL give the stuff away and get thrown into the recycle bin...

This is a tough one to fix...

I think that if you fail to fufill a trade in say JITA.... the station manager might make it illegal for you to trade there anymore... or in regions.. or faction space... buy... yes... but never sell... same with contracts.

thoughts?!

Jose Ronald
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#75 - 2013-08-16 22:15:18 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Jose Ronald Palasialdana wrote:
I think that if you fail to fufill a trade in say JITA.... the station manager might make it illegal for you to trade there anymore... or in regions.. or faction space... buy... yes... but never sell... same with contracts.



... so my station bound trading alt will get a suspect flag in the unlikely event that I am not psychic and thus unable to perfectly predict the future performance of the commodities I invest in? Okay...

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Inokuma Yawara
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2013-08-17 05:25:27 UTC
Veanna Lenn wrote:
... As I was trying to get my bearings, I saw a Tag contract for half a billion. The contract had two tags in it. Normally I laugh at contracts and realize that most of them are scams anyway, but this time I was bored and buzzed from alcohol so I just right clicked to check market details, for fun (why the heck not). ...


Your story reminds me of this

Watch this space.  New exciting signature in development.
Opertone
State War Academy
Caldari State
#77 - 2013-08-17 06:44:17 UTC
shittty mechanic

it doesn't make the game better.... it only adds extra ****

This post sums up why the 'best' work with DCM inc.

WARP DRIVE makes eve boring

really - add warping align time 300% on gun aggression and eve becomes great again
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2013-08-17 15:14:50 UTC
Veanna Lenn wrote:
So after having last played in 2007, I decided to come back to EvE two weeks ago. Back in 2007 I lived in nullsec so you can imagine I'm not very educated on the markets.

As I was trying to get my bearings, I saw a Tag contract for half a billion. The contract had two tags in it. Normally I laugh at contracts and realize that most of them are scams anyway, but this time I was bored and buzzed from alcohol so I just right clicked to check market details, for fun (why the heck not).

I saw that there were TONS of sell orders for 600 mil. MULTIPLE buy orders for ~500 mil. I was extremely confused. This contract had TWO tags for 500 mil! I spent several minutes, not even kidding, just COUNTING the number of digits in the buy order to make sure it was 500 mil and not something else. Being buzzed didn't help with the counting.

After determining it is indeed 500 mil, I then decided to check what the hell this item is, and why it is so expensive. I googled it and saw it is an officer tag. +1 for legit. I then logged in on my alt in a different empire region. That region ALSO had buy and sell orders for ~500 mil. +1 for legit. I was now convinced each tag did indeed cost 500 mil. Why? Well, I remembered reading patch notes and remembred something about tags for sec status, which is why I figured these items were so valuable.

I bought the contract. Try to sell it... BOOM, can't, minimum quantity is 6! I am undeterred. Flying around, I find two more contracts for 500 mil each having 2 more tags. I figure these are leftover from before the patch that made them jump in value. I buy them.

Try to fill the order with my 6 tags. it vanishes. I then google the tag's name, and then add "exploit" at the end, figuring it was some sort of an exploit. I am finally taken to a forum page where Margin Trading Scam is discussed. Alas, I wish I saw that page earlier.

Lesson: Don't drink and fly EvE


Welcome back to Eve =/

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Jose Ronald Palasialdana
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2013-08-17 21:00:16 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Jose Ronald Palasialdana wrote:
I think that if you fail to fufill a trade in say JITA.... the station manager might make it illegal for you to trade there anymore... or in regions.. or faction space... buy... yes... but never sell... same with contracts.



... so my station bound trading alt will get a suspect flag in the unlikely event that I am not psychic and thus unable to perfectly predict the future performance of the commodities I invest in? Okay...



yes... and subject to immediate revocation of your Captain's Quarters and POD ejection. I'm mean what is a Station official supposed to do with tons of merchandise (trafficked or legal) that some schmuck can't pay for... turn around and put it back where they got it from?!?! What about all the overtime/holiday pay the material handlers union (Local 399547459323 "Heavy Lift") has to deal with every time some capsuleer can't pay his/her bill....

Maybe a restocking fee! I know some of you are thinking they can't possibly had to get the stuff out of Capsuleer "A" Item Hangar... and have it moved 1/2 way to Capsuleer "B" hangar before the deal was canceled... but in reality... when I make a buy.. that stuff shows up in my hangar IMMEDIATELY!! so they gotz to be knowing what they be doing!! maybe they can PREDICT what is getting ordered.

Scenerio: Mack... shift manager who's working level 11685 tells Lenny, the crew boss, to "get some small Ion Blasters, Catalysts, Sensor Boosters, Warp Scramblers and plenty of AMMO ready to go"... Jose (no relation to me) says... "How the hell does he know to do that?!? Lenny replies "Look out the window... see all the goons ganking everything that moves...." Jose looks and his eyes go wide... "Oh my.... why the sam hill would those dumb capsuleers fly out into that... is it cause the have clones?!?" Lenny just smiles.... "No.... they don't have windows on the capsuleers side... that'd be bad for business"

Restocking fee.... 5%.... and if that puts you in the hole better start mission running.

Jose Ronald
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#80 - 2013-08-17 23:52:28 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Jose Ronald Palasialdana wrote:
yes... and subject to immediate revocation of your Captain's Quarters and POD ejection. I'm mean what is a Station official supposed to do with tons of merchandise (trafficked or legal) that some ******* can't pay for... turn around and put it back where they got it from?!?! What about all the overtime/holiday pay the material handlers union (Local 399547459323 "Heavy Lift") has to deal with every time some capsuleer can't pay his/her bill....


Except that there's no bill to pay. The transaction never occurs. The Station Official doesn't have any pile of merchandise to deal with.

It's like going to Wal-Mart, taking your cart to the register, getting rung up, and finding that you've forgotten your wallet. You leave, Wal-Mart keeps their stuff, why should that be a major criminal offense with unprecedented penalties?

Also, Oh no, my Captains Quarters! What will I ever do without it? Roll

And, again, you're expecting people playing EVE to be doing something that, were they able to do it, would be making them billions on the RL market.

Quote:
Maybe a restocking fee! I know some of you are thinking they can't possibly had to get the stuff out of Capsuleer "A" Item Hangar... and have it moved 1/2 way to Capsuleer "B" hangar before the deal was canceled... but in reality... when I make a buy.. that stuff shows up in my hangar IMMEDIATELY!! so they gotz to be knowing what they be doing!! maybe they can PREDICT what is getting ordered.


Already exists. It's called the broker's fee.

Nobody's cancelling any order. You try to sell to a buy order, the broker checks the escrow account, finds it insufficient to cover the transaction, checks the linked wallet, finds that insufficient to cover the transaction, and removes the listing. Your stuff never went anywhere.

And you're confusing buying from a sell order and making a buy order. One gets you the items immediately, the other gets you the items if and when someone is willing to sell you those items at the price you're offering.



Of course, this is all ignoring the fact that a buy order being delisted for insufficient funds cannot hurt anyone.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon