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Cloaking device with fuel

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Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#161 - 2013-08-15 11:56:03 UTC
Why would a log off timer or an AFK flag not solve the issue? Because it would negativelly impact other game activities where being AFK is not an issue, like high-sec mining, playing the market, etc.

See? Considering other perspectives.

Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.
Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#162 - 2013-08-15 12:24:31 UTC
Lol, I just noticed there is a 2007 thread with the exact same discussion. **** it. You can keep your loved broken mechanic, I'm out of here.

Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#163 - 2013-08-15 12:25:31 UTC
/me keeps an eye on his watch

next thread on this topic in 3...2...1...
Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#164 - 2013-08-15 12:31:44 UTC
This means either that CCP doesn't care about player input or that there is too many players not willing to take part with the way things work presently. Either way whoever is supporting a change to the cloak mechanic is in a bad position.
I enjoyed throwing some logic pies at the troll clown faces but I don't see a point in going any further with this.
It gets boring.

For reference : http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=498000

Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#165 - 2013-08-15 12:40:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
Nag'o wrote:
If you're trying to balance a feature you have to consider the perspective of everyone affected by the balancing. That's exactly what you are NOT doing. You think afk cloaking only happens in nullsec and it only affects mining and other PVE activities.

Since you insist on it so much, I will say what I think about getting rid of local even that not being the topic of this thread. Could it be a cool thing? Sure! But that's changing a basic aspect of the game. 'Hey, Monopoly is boring because it takes too long, let's change the table so it's a spiral instead of a square.' Will that be cool? Maybe it will, idk... the fact is that it will make it another game. EVE already have this game and it happens in WH space. Could the WH local mechanic be interesting when applied to nullsec? There is a a whole other thread of factors involved and I'm not into the discussion because the issue I want to address here is AFK CLOAKING.
Does afk cloaking happens only in nullsec?
I will let you to answer that horribly, horribly difficult question.


The answers you seek is that people show up in Local everywhere, Hi-Sec, Low-Sec, Null-Sec, but that's not the issue as you can't tell if they're AFK or not.

The only people who are not struck down by the fear of god when someone shows up, who you don't know is AFK or not, is WH dwellers and why...because they don't have a free intel channel called...wait for it...Local. They get on with what they are doing and plan accordingly for other people in their system, remaining vigilant, arming themselves if required or protecting their assets\corp mates with PvP pilots...you know like they should because that's the risk.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#166 - 2013-08-15 12:41:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
Nag'o wrote:
Lol, I just noticed there is a 2007 thread with the exact same discussion. **** it. You can keep your loved broken mechanic, I'm out of here.


Cloaking isn't broken just working as intended. It's peoples attitude to the risk that person poses that's the problem and the fact that they won't field there own protection against it along with the free immediate intel that Local provides.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#167 - 2013-08-15 12:44:22 UTC
Nag'o wrote:
This means either that CCP doesn't care about player input or that there is too many players not willing to take part with the way things work presently. Either way whoever is supporting a change to the cloak mechanic is in a bad position.
I enjoyed throwing some logic pies at the troll clown faces but I don't see a point in going any further with this.
It gets boring.

For reference : http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=498000


Wow, "troll clown faces"...don't let the door hit you on the way out. I wonder if he's gone AFK in this thread...as he clearly did before Smile

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#168 - 2013-08-15 12:49:42 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
This means either that CCP doesn't care about player input or that there is too many players not willing to take part with the way things work presently. Either way whoever is supporting a change to the cloak mechanic is in a bad position.
I enjoyed throwing some logic pies at the troll clown faces but I don't see a point in going any further with this.
It gets boring.

For reference : http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=498000


Wow, "troll clown faces"...don't let the door hit you on the way out. I wonder if he's gone AFK in this thread...as he clearly did before Smile


Oh and from that link Nag'o posted was this on the second post down:

Angelus Xenotov wrote:

Posted - 2007.03.27 13:37:00 - [2]

Haha. 'Risk Verses Reward' on cloakers.

Here you go.

Risk: Going out in a ship worth 100 million that has double-ply toliet tissue as armor.

Risk: A gatecamp with atleast 1 skilled person will decloak you an splatter you.

Risk: Getting decloaked by anything.

Reward: Intelligence (No combat ability, just looking).

Decloak probes are not the answer, if they include decloak probes they'd better damnwell boost Cloaker ships 400% otherwise an entire class of ship are gunna go bye bye.


Enough said really.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#169 - 2013-08-15 12:50:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Nag'o
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
Lol, I just noticed there is a 2007 thread with the exact same discussion. **** it. You can keep your loved broken mechanic, I'm out of here.


Cloaking isn't broken just working as intended. It's peoples attitude to the risk that person poses that's the problem and the fact that they won't field there own protection against it along with the free immediate intel that Local provides.


Any unbalanced mechanic in a competitive game is infallibly broken. I assume that since EVE is a game with roleplay aspects too some people simply don't care about balance as long as thair epeen is hard.

Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#170 - 2013-08-15 12:54:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
Nag'o wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
Lol, I just noticed there is a 2007 thread with the exact same discussion. **** it. You can keep your loved broken mechanic, I'm out of here.


Cloaking isn't broken just working as intended. It's peoples attitude to the risk that person poses that's the problem and the fact that they won't field there own protection against it along with the free immediate intel that Local provides.


Any unbalanced mechanic in a competitive game is infallibly broken. I assume that since EVE is a game with roleplay aspects too some people simply don't care about balance as long as thair epeen is hard.


OMG...I perceived the no threat and when you came back from being AFK there was a threat...

*Maximus Aerelius runs to the Log-Off button from the Forums*

In all seriousness though it's not unbalanced. How is it unbalanced? Oh here we go again.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#171 - 2013-08-15 13:04:21 UTC
I'd like to think all these threads are just trolling at this point. I think that's a better scenario than having so many people legitimately crying for massive unbalanced changes so they can remove risk and uncertainty in an intentionally dangerous area they CHOSE to occupy
Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#172 - 2013-08-15 13:13:05 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
I'd like to think all these threads are just trolling at this point. I think that's a better scenario than having so many people legitimately crying for massive unbalanced changes so they can remove risk and uncertainty in an intentionally dangerous area they CHOSE to occupy


Having a lot of threads about the same issue dating up to before 2007 certainly tells us something.


Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#173 - 2013-08-15 13:16:47 UTC
Nag'o wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
I'd like to think all these threads are just trolling at this point. I think that's a better scenario than having so many people legitimately crying for massive unbalanced changes so they can remove risk and uncertainty in an intentionally dangerous area they CHOSE to occupy


Having a lot of threads about the same issue dating up to before 2007 certainly tells us something.




Yes, it tells us there are a lot of people who are greedy and self entitled. They go to null - the most dangerous area of the game - for the rewards, but refuse to deal with the risks, demanding CCP remove it for them
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#174 - 2013-08-15 13:20:27 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Janna Sway wrote:
-snipped- .


Wow, I was actually moved but how you wrote your post. A sound +1 to you Janna.


+1 from me too.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#175 - 2013-08-15 13:22:22 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:

Yes, it tells us there are a lot of people who are greedy and self entitled. They go to null - the most dangerous area of the game - for the rewards, but refuse to deal with the risks, demanding CCP remove it for them


You obvsiouly didn't took the trouble of reading not even the last page of this thread.

The idea is fueled cloaking device, balanced in away that it does not change actual mechanics other than for people that plans to go afk while cloaking. Discuss? No.



Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#176 - 2013-08-15 13:32:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
Nag'o wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:

Yes, it tells us there are a lot of people who are greedy and self entitled. They go to null - the most dangerous area of the game - for the rewards, but refuse to deal with the risks, demanding CCP remove it for them


You obvsiouly didn't took the trouble of reading not even the last page of this thread.

The idea is fueled cloaking device, balanced in away that it does not change actual mechanics other than for people that plans to go afk while cloaking. Discuss? No.


And it does change the mechanics from WH dwellers having to do more jumps from their unstable exits to Hi-Sec to get POS\Cloaking fuel to the average Joe recon pilot who scouts out targets 30 jumps down in Null but now his cargo hold can't hold enough fuel to get him safely back to Hi-Sec along to Mr Cov-Ops Hauler who is collecting stuff or trading in Low-Sec who doesn't stand a chance getting through a 50 man gate camp but doesn't have enough fuel to wait it out and so loses his ship, his pod, his cargo...

Cov-Ops just died with this idea...no one would fly it.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#177 - 2013-08-15 13:34:22 UTC
Nag'o wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:

Yes, it tells us there are a lot of people who are greedy and self entitled. They go to null - the most dangerous area of the game - for the rewards, but refuse to deal with the risks, demanding CCP remove it for them


You obvsiouly didn't took the trouble of reading not even the last page of this thread.

The idea is fueled cloaking device, balanced in away that it does not change actual mechanics other than for people that plans to go afk while cloaking. Discuss? No.


Oh and I thought you were leaving after throwing pie in the "troll clown faces" here. In the name of god, go! (Oliver Cromwell quote FYI) and we'll let this thread die and never mention it again...

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#178 - 2013-08-15 13:46:19 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:

Yes, it tells us there are a lot of people who are greedy and self entitled. They go to null - the most dangerous area of the game - for the rewards, but refuse to deal with the risks, demanding CCP remove it for them


You obvsiouly didn't took the trouble of reading not even the last page of this thread.

The idea is fueled cloaking device, balanced in away that it does not change actual mechanics other than for people that plans to go afk while cloaking. Discuss? No.


And it does change the mechanics from WH dwellers having to do more jumps from their unstable exits to Hi-Sec to get POS\Cloaking fuel to the average Joe recon pilot who scouts out targets 30 jumps down in Null but now his cargo hold can't hold enough fuel to get him safely back to Hi-Sec along to Mr Cov-Ops Hauler who is collecting stuff or trading in Low-Sec who doesn't stand a chance getting through a 50 man gate camp but doesn't have enough fuel to wait it out and so loses his ship, his pod, his cargo...

Cov-Ops just died with this idea...no one would fly it.


If the fuel was something easy to aquire, or maybe something that already exists, like the capacitor itself, what would be the trouble?
I love the idea of managing an extra asset for cloaking but it doesn't necessarily has to be that way.



Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#179 - 2013-08-15 13:54:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
Nag'o wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:

Yes, it tells us there are a lot of people who are greedy and self entitled. They go to null - the most dangerous area of the game - for the rewards, but refuse to deal with the risks, demanding CCP remove it for them


You obvsiouly didn't took the trouble of reading not even the last page of this thread.

The idea is fueled cloaking device, balanced in away that it does not change actual mechanics other than for people that plans to go afk while cloaking. Discuss? No.


And it does change the mechanics from WH dwellers having to do more jumps from their unstable exits to Hi-Sec to get POS\Cloaking fuel to the average Joe recon pilot who scouts out targets 30 jumps down in Null but now his cargo hold can't hold enough fuel to get him safely back to Hi-Sec along to Mr Cov-Ops Hauler who is collecting stuff or trading in Low-Sec who doesn't stand a chance getting through a 50 man gate camp but doesn't have enough fuel to wait it out and so loses his ship, his pod, his cargo...

Cov-Ops just died with this idea...no one would fly it.


If the fuel was something easy to aquire, or maybe something that already exists, like the capacitor itself, what would be the trouble?
I love the idea of managing an extra asset for cloaking but it doesn't necessarily has to be that way.


You're missing the point: A Cov-Ops ship was designed to not require fuel...it's in the design that it has special equipment and hull setup NOT to need fuel. It just doesn't need fuel or if it does then make every ship need fuel and in that you kill EVE Online.

It's like requiring a Logistics Class ship (Basilisk for example) to require "Shield Emission Charges" and when it runs out it can't rep shields...another Class Killer right there.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#180 - 2013-08-15 13:59:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Nag'o wrote:
If you're trying to balance a feature you have to consider the perspective of everyone affected by the balancing. That's exactly what you are NOT doing. You think afk cloaking only happens in nullsec and it only affects mining and other PVE activities.


People almost never, ever care about afk cloaking in high sec. Why? Because the threat level is dramatically different.

People don't care about afk cloaking in wormholes because it doesn't work--i.e. people wont do it (i.e. for strategic purposes such as asset denial)

The only place people care about it is in Null, which has a local like high sec (why?) and where you don't have the limited access as in wormholes.

Quote:
Since you insist on it so much, I will say what I think about getting rid of local even that not being the topic of this thread.


Oh, but it is. It is very much integral to this discussion because that is precisely how the AFK cloaker infuences others. For example, if there was no local you'd never know that ship was there at a safe spot cloaked up. You'd have no reason not to undock. It is precisely because of local you know a "bad guy" is there.

Now a total removal of local is too much. Very few are suggesting that. Instead we want a change to local so that (active) cloaking becomes a viable hunting method and at the same time make changes so that hunting a cloaked ship becomes reasonable as well.

Quote:
Could it be a cool thing? Sure! But that's changing a basic aspect of the game. 'Hey, Monopoly is boring because it takes too long, let's change the table so it's a spiral instead of a square.' Will that be cool? Maybe it will, idk... the fact is that it will make it another game. EVE already have this game and it happens in WH space. Could the WH local mechanic be interesting when applied to nullsec? There is a a whole other thread of factors involved and I'm not into the discussion because the issue I want to address here is AFK CLOAKING.
Does afk cloaking happens only in nullsec?
I will let you to answer that horribly, horribly difficult question.


Well it could be a very cool thing, changing local and how intel is gathered. Did you read the article I linked? Here is how it could be cool:

Quote:
And player sov? That's where it gets really fun. The current paradigm is parity of intelligence: everyone has access to the same instant intel. In Rhavas' system, it would start that way by default as well, except everyone would have little or no information. The owners of the system can gain an edge, but to do so they must build them, pay for, and protect the beacons, which forces a choice of just where they want to cover. And the best answer isn't necessarily "the best possible coverage, everywhere." Naturally, instant intelligence would be preferable in favored ratting or mining systems, or important staging systems, but why pay for it in the deserted backwater? If, for some reason, IFF Beacons actually shared info with friend and foe alike... that would be strange, but okay, really, as it adds a different dimension. Perhaps the owners of an area of space purposefully leave areas uncovered to create pockets in which to ambush intruders.--emphasis in the original


In other words, it could had new dimensions to the game, make things more interesting and more challenging and in a good way.

And this,

Quote:
Another upshot is that these structures, the IFF Beacon in particular, would be a legitimate candidate to qualify as a "small gang" target. Antenna are not exactly known to be the most robust structures, after all, and there would be no good reason to give them an inordinate amount of HP. An intruding gang could, with relative ease, eliminate the local beacon to provide a blind-spot for their gate camp... or perhaps in addition to being destructible, they're hackable, and invading forces can take control of them for their own purposes. In larger scale warfare, perhaps an invading force (subcapital or otherwise) is preceded by a smaller gang, knocking out their target's beacons to hide the presence of the inbound fleets.


Now hacking just isn't a PVE thing, and small gangs have something fun and potentially important to do.

At the same time, the cloaked ships lose some of their "invulnerability" while cloaked. Now they could be hunted down. Not easily, but it could be feasible. Stay in one place too long and uh-oh, heeeerrreeees Johnny! Ready to put that axe in your head (reference here for you young people P).

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online