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Cloaking device with fuel

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Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#121 - 2013-08-14 20:37:03 UTC
RoAnnon wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
It's not an insult, you're not considering both players perspectives when analysing risks. You're using an omnipresent point of view not available when we're playing.


Players' perspectives don't enter into this, it's a matter of game balance. Whether you wish to accept the facts or not, the game in regards to cloaking is balanced. The perspective of one pilot or another regarding the issue has no bearing whatsoever on that fact and it shouldn't enter into a discussion about it. What you're dealing with is your opinion that it's bad, which is neither here nor there in relation to if the game is balanced, and which point you refuse to see.


Lol. Balancing is all about checking all the different players perspectives into the equation. Cloaking is obviously not balanced since the cloaked player has a greater, risk-free, already cited, advantage over the uncloaked players.

Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#122 - 2013-08-14 20:38:00 UTC
C'mon Nag'o, say it with me....Lo....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#123 - 2013-08-14 20:38:16 UTC
...Loc....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mag's
Azn Empire
#124 - 2013-08-14 20:39:02 UTC
Nag'o wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
Mag's wrote:
@ Nag'o
You seem to be avoiding answering this question. It's not a trick question and I already know the answer. I just want you to answer it please.

Whilst they are cloaked and AFK, which mechanic do they use to influence you?


I already answered it in the last page.

I did see your post regarding the influence and in response, already said we shall take it as red that they do in fact influence pilots. But you haven't answered that particular part of the first question. Which is why I asked it again.

So which mechanic are they using?


Cloaking indefinitely while going afk is the mechanic.
It gives them an advantage.
Now please don't reply with something other person already said.




But how so? The cloak makes your ship invisible from view, scanner and probes. How can a ship you cannot see, influence you in anyway? It obviously cannot, therefore they must be using another mechanic and I'd like you to tell me which one it is please.

Like I said, this is not a trick question, I have already accepted they are influencing you.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#125 - 2013-08-14 20:40:42 UTC
Nag'o wrote:
RoAnnon wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
It's not an insult, you're not considering both players perspectives when analysing risks. You're using an omnipresent point of view not available when we're playing.


Players' perspectives don't enter into this, it's a matter of game balance. Whether you wish to accept the facts or not, the game in regards to cloaking is balanced. The perspective of one pilot or another regarding the issue has no bearing whatsoever on that fact and it shouldn't enter into a discussion about it. What you're dealing with is your opinion that it's bad, which is neither here nor there in relation to if the game is balanced, and which point you refuse to see.


Lol. Balancing is all about checking all the different players perspectives into the equation. Cloaking is obviously not balanced since the cloaked player has a greater, risk-free, already cited, advantage over the uncloaked players.



You are risk free as long as the cloaked ship is cloaked too.

Cloaked ships cannot target, cannot activate modules, cannot do much of anything with the exception being warping and moving at normal speed for recons, bombers and cov ops.

You cannot target or do anything to a cloaked ship.

Thus, there is balance.

Once the cloak is dropped it all changes...for both sides. Again, balance.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#126 - 2013-08-14 20:43:03 UTC
My conclusion at this point is that Nag'o knows the answer is "local", but does not want to admit it. After all, he isn't stupid, but he is being a bit dishonest.

The answer is local, because without local, there is no way for the AFK cloaked ship to have any influence all on any other pilot ever. The logic is inescapable and irrefutable. That is why Nag'o is not typing that dreaded word....Local.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#127 - 2013-08-14 20:44:43 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
Mag's wrote:
@ Nag'o
You seem to be avoiding answering this question. It's not a trick question and I already know the answer. I just want you to answer it please.

Whilst they are cloaked and AFK, which mechanic do they use to influence you?


I already answered it in the last page.

I did see your post regarding the influence and in response, already said we shall take it as red that they do in fact influence pilots. But you haven't answered that particular part of the first question. Which is why I asked it again.

So which mechanic are they using?


Cloaking indefinitely while going afk is the mechanic.
It gives them an advantage.
Now please don't reply with something other person already said.




But how so? The cloak makes your ship invisible from view, scanner and probes. How can a ship you cannot see, influence you in anyway? It obviously cannot, therefore they must be using another mechanic and I'd like you to tell me which one it is please.

Like I said, this is not a trick question, I have already accepted they are influencing you.


Knowing a potential enemy has an advantage over you certainly incluences the way you play.


Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.
Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#128 - 2013-08-14 20:46:41 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
My conclusion at this point is that Nag'o knows the answer is "local", but does not want to admit it. After all, he isn't stupid, but he is being a bit dishonest.

The answer is local, because without local, there is no way for the AFK cloaked ship to have any influence all on any other pilot ever. The logic is inescapable and irrefutable. That is why Nag'o is not typing that dreaded word....Local.


Changing local mechanics is a good idea and would solve the cloaking problem in NULL. BUT would lowsec mechanics be changed as well? Aren't we trying to kill a little bug with too big of a hammer here?



Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#129 - 2013-08-14 20:46:47 UTC
Nag'o wrote:


Knowing a potential enemy has an advantage over you certainly incluences the way you play.



For the love of God....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#130 - 2013-08-14 20:47:29 UTC
I'm going AFK.
LOL.
Don't expect any replies from me so soon.

Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#131 - 2013-08-14 20:50:36 UTC
Nag'o wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
My conclusion at this point is that Nag'o knows the answer is "local", but does not want to admit it. After all, he isn't stupid, but he is being a bit dishonest.

The answer is local, because without local, there is no way for the AFK cloaked ship to have any influence all on any other pilot ever. The logic is inescapable and irrefutable. That is why Nag'o is not typing that dreaded word....Local.


Changing local mechanics is a good idea and would solve the cloaking problem in NULL. BUT would lowsec mechanics be changed as well? Aren't we trying to kill a little bug with too big of a hammer here?





Sure why not?

Again, look at my sig, or Nikk's. Even better go read Nikk's threads.

1. Change local so that AFK cloaking is no longer feasible for strategic purposes (i.e. no more AFK cloak camping, but you might still use it for bathroom breaks, grabbing food, or even RL emergencies).

2. Introduce a method of hunting down cloaked ships. This is the final nail in the AFK camping coffin except for situations noted above and even then you'd still be at risk.

Ideally release them together.

In my AFK cloaking collection thread I link several discussions on other websites about revamping intel gathering in a more comprehensive way as well. If you can find them they are worth the read.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#132 - 2013-08-14 20:51:16 UTC
Nag'o wrote:
I'm going AFK.
LOL.
Don't expect any replies from me so soon.



Everybody, weapons free...I repeat weapons free. P

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
RoAnnon
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#133 - 2013-08-14 20:56:50 UTC
Nag'o wrote:
Lol. Balancing is all about checking all the different players perspectives into the equation. Cloaking is obviously not balanced since the cloaked player has a greater, risk-free, already cited, advantage over the uncloaked players.


Balancing is about equity of gameplay. Just stating they have an advantage isn't citing what the advantage is. What exactly is this so-called advantage you claim a cloaked pilot has, and how does that advantage get utilized by an AFK pilot? Please explain this, as you haven't yet. Merely repeating a general phrase over and over isn't the same as explaining the details of what you're actually talking about.

So, you're a bounty hunter. No, that ain't it at all. Then what are you? I'm a bounty hunter.

Broadcast4Reps

Eve Vegas 2015 Pub Crawl Group 9

Houston EVE Meet
RoAnnon
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#134 - 2013-08-14 20:59:28 UTC
Nag'o wrote:
I'm going AFK.
LOL.
Don't expect any replies from me so soon.



We really haven't gotten any substantive replies from you so far, why should the near future be any different?

So, you're a bounty hunter. No, that ain't it at all. Then what are you? I'm a bounty hunter.

Broadcast4Reps

Eve Vegas 2015 Pub Crawl Group 9

Houston EVE Meet
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#135 - 2013-08-14 21:02:27 UTC
Here is one of the articles, with links to 2 more articles...and probably more at those two.

Juicy quote...

Quote:
The first is that I think AFK cloaking is actually a symptom of the perfect intel offered by local. I admit that I'm part of the problem. I fly, when I can be bothered to log in and play, with the Goonwaffe "Blackops" SIG. Among other functions, we goes into hostile systems and disrupt their moneymaking; kill the ratters, run off the miners, and destroy or evade their (usually) futile and pathetic attempts to fight back. But more often than not, that involves a depressingly large amount of AFK cloaking. Even though my ship is cloaked, I remain visible in local, and so locals are perfectly aware of my presence. While I and many like me can use this to our advantage for area denial, it makes for decidedly boring gameplay. I'm on another character or in another game if I'm at the computer at all, while the ratter is doing the same or leaves the system in hopes of finding an empty place to rat. So, any decoupling of local from intel eliminates AFK cloaking as a strategy, because it won't be necessary anymore. If I'm caught on scan, but then vanish, there's no way to tell if I've left system, or if I'm simply temporarily cloaked.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mag's
Azn Empire
#136 - 2013-08-14 21:03:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Nag'o wrote:

Knowing a potential enemy has an advantage over you certainly incluences the way you play.


And I have already accepted there may be influence, but that still doesn't answer the question. It seems pointless asking again, as you don't seem to want or wish to answer the question directly.

As my friend Teckos answered it for you with 'Local', I'll ask you a follow on question.

As local is being used in this regard, why are you asking for cloaks to be nerfed and not local? You do realise that you don't even need a cloak, to gain the same psychological effects?

As your gripe is regarding the influence they have whilst AFK, it seems strange that you don't then wish to tackle the actual mechanic being used in that case.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
RoAnnon
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#137 - 2013-08-14 21:09:04 UTC
Nag'o wrote:
I'm going AFK.
LOL.
Don't expect any replies from me so soon.



He's gone AFK, I'm feeling strangely influenced by his advantage over me in the forum...

So, you're a bounty hunter. No, that ain't it at all. Then what are you? I'm a bounty hunter.

Broadcast4Reps

Eve Vegas 2015 Pub Crawl Group 9

Houston EVE Meet
Mag's
Azn Empire
#138 - 2013-08-14 21:11:08 UTC
RoAnnon wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
I'm going AFK.
LOL.
Don't expect any replies from me so soon.



He's gone AFK, I'm feeling strangely influenced by his advantage over me in the forum...
It's simply not right. He has 100% safety from logic whilst AFK. Seems like an exploit to me. Straight

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#139 - 2013-08-14 21:44:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Also notice the distinct lack of replies from the OP's on these kind of posts. A person with a genuine idea that they want to work out and revise will feedback and reply but not these little "Hot Drop a Troll" types. I doubt we'll ever see the OP post up in this thread again and so we should just let it slip into the infinite space (anywhere from Page 3 backwards) until the Gods of sanity lock it for inactivity.


^ And I say again, all the way from Page 3 ^

These kinds of posts are troll posts that the OP (Original Poster) very rarely returns to defend or answer legitimate questions on their proposal but rather lets others walk into a backdraft without a flame proof suit from those that know the answer to "The Cloaking Questions".

Let it die and only remain in Teckos Pech's thread of "Nerf Cloaking" ideas.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#140 - 2013-08-15 00:24:46 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:

Sure why not?

Again, look at my sig, or Nikk's. Even better go read Nikk's threads.

1. Change local so that AFK cloaking is no longer feasible for strategic purposes (i.e. no more AFK cloak camping, but you might still use it for bathroom breaks, grabbing food, or even RL emergencies).

2. Introduce a method of hunting down cloaked ships. This is the final nail in the AFK camping coffin except for situations noted above and even then you'd still be at risk.

Ideally release them together.

In my AFK cloaking collection thread I link several discussions on other websites about revamping intel gathering in a more comprehensive way as well. If you can find them they are worth the read.

So you DO acknowledge that that being AFK cloaking IS a problem. That is great!
Maybe we can discuss local mechanics in that other thread, uh? This is about a specific idea wich you already said you find horrible because... the problem... is not AFK cloaking? I'm confused.




Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.