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showing up on local has to be removed

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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#181 - 2013-08-14 17:15:51 UTC
Geromand wrote:
Cool mm well lets can live out local just 2x or 3x the isk income in null secSmile

Obviously, if the risks increase, so does the reward.

The devs simply watch how much is made ratting / mining / missioning, etc.
If it is too high, then they know the threat level is not keeping it in check, and they limit the income potential in other ways.

If you actually create more risk, then the ratting / mining / missioning, etc, drops, and the devs know to raise the quality to compensate.
Either by making more available or higher value, as is appropriate for the specific details involved.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Zatar Sharisa
New Eden Heavy Industries Incorporated
#182 - 2013-08-14 17:23:56 UTC
Phaade wrote:
Zatar Sharisa wrote:
Phaade wrote:
[quote=Zatar Sharisa]I

Your argument that local should remain doesn't really make sense. You can't compare civilian flight traffic today to people flying through space is the most advanced technology ever seen 25,000 years in the future.



But I can. Even if you're in a stealth ship, you're having to go through that Jump Gate. Someone has to throw the controls to allow such. Considering that you're being disassembled and beamed across light years of space, and then reassembled at the other end, they can most certainly tag you with whatever they want in that reassembly. You might be able to go unseen, but you're going to show up as "in system" without any trouble.

Now, that said, this wouldn't apply in the least if you jumped into system without going through a gate. There's where the idea breaks down.



You're telling me that there is some guy operating each stargate across the Eve universe? In the depths of drone space there's some redneck sitting alone in a stargate drinking beer and allowing people through? You've got to be kidding.



I'm telling you that it's either that or that someone wrote a program to automate it, yes.

I understand about indecision, but I don't care if I get behind.  People livin' in competition.  All I want is to have my peace of mind.

"Peace of Mind"  --  Boston
Miss Everest
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#183 - 2013-08-14 17:24:52 UTC
jujumagumboo wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
yea old story, just another big alliances advantage

they all have their intel channels, spam their system with alts and see who is going back and forth

this awaited me after jumping into JU system just hours ago

https://twitter.com/geistreiches/status/366231500926091265/photo/1

they have seen me coming 5 jumps ahead and were able to prepare, they did mention it to me in chat

as an expert in passing gatecamps i was able to get through, however newbs would have been an easy target

if you want to have more people roaming around in null this local "intel" channel needs to be removed

if I dont talk in local, i should not show up, its that simple, people still have dscan to see things

everybody against this please start crying below ↓


Stay out of space that doesn't belong to you. Problem solved.



I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone but this one comment if probably the reason he made this post.

There is no longer any space that does not belong to someone, or any way to get to such space without going through someone. And if such a space does happen to exist then it is instantly swallowed by a nearby alliance.

This frustrates me to no end. How can anyone enjoy the Null playground without having to join one of the what... super coalitions?

Again not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone just saying this is frustrating...
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#184 - 2013-08-14 17:27:14 UTC

I personally think local should be replaced with an intel system.

  • Create an intel overview instead of the local chat window: New pilots instantly appear as "unknown pilot, unknown ship".
    • -- This ensures everyone has time to react to a new local if they desire, but that local may be friend or foe... Lots of friendly traffic will desensitize pilots for the incoming hostile!

  • As any pilot gets within your ships scanner range the intel overview is populated with their ship type and pilot name.
    • -- I'd give different ship types different ranges with covops getting the most range, followed next by fleet inties. I'd penalize the "intel range" when you fit a cloak, but perhaps have the ECCM and Backup array modules increase your intel gathering range. We could quibble all you want about the ideal range, but a BS getting ship type at 14ish au, and pilot name at 5 au is fairly reasonable.

  • Cloaked ships remain unknown until they decloak.

  • Intel is automatically shared with every member in fleet
    • -- This promotes team play, and helps boost the role of

  • Wormhole effects inhibit the "ship scanners" in W-space, leaving wspace intel gathering techniques untouched.

    • This is balanced between the hunters and the hunted, doesn't make covert cloaks OMG overpowered god-mode modules, and is what I'd like to see implemented.
    Zatar Sharisa
    New Eden Heavy Industries Incorporated
    #185 - 2013-08-14 17:34:31 UTC
    Miss Everest wrote:


    I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone but this one comment if probably the reason he made this post.

    There is no longer any space that does not belong to someone, or any way to get to such space without going through someone. And if such a space does happen to exist then it is instantly swallowed by a nearby alliance.

    This frustrates me to no end. How can anyone enjoy the Null playground without having to join one of the what... super coalitions?

    Again not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone just saying this is frustrating...



    This. I definitely agree with this. I'd love to be able to just go out and roam EvE , and see the scenery. I'm not interested in screwing with anyone, but with the situation as it is, how far would I realistically get before waking up wet?

    Here's another reason then for why I'm not totally against getting rid of local, but if the purpose is simply to get more victims available, then nah.

    I understand about indecision, but I don't care if I get behind.  People livin' in competition.  All I want is to have my peace of mind.

    "Peace of Mind"  --  Boston
    Nikk Narrel
    Moonlit Bonsai
    #186 - 2013-08-14 17:53:15 UTC
    Zatar Sharisa wrote:
    Miss Everest wrote:


    I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone but this one comment if probably the reason he made this post.

    There is no longer any space that does not belong to someone, or any way to get to such space without going through someone. And if such a space does happen to exist then it is instantly swallowed by a nearby alliance.

    This frustrates me to no end. How can anyone enjoy the Null playground without having to join one of the what... super coalitions?

    Again not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone just saying this is frustrating...



    This. I definitely agree with this. I'd love to be able to just go out and roam EvE , and see the scenery. I'm not interested in screwing with anyone, but with the situation as it is, how far would I realistically get before waking up wet?

    Here's another reason then for why I'm not totally against getting rid of local, but if the purpose is simply to get more victims available, then nah.

    Quite seriously, local is helping the hostile far more than the sov holding local, for reasons already made plain.

    Remove that, and you remove that silver platter hostiles get the intel on. With nothing to replace it, they are blind.
    Using ship scanners is nice, and a good skill to have, but it cannot make up for the lack of an intel channel, and the leverage it conveys.

    On another note, I suggest reading the links in my signature. Each is one half of a complete solution to this whole mess.

    Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
    Mournful Conciousness
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #187 - 2013-08-14 17:53:27 UTC
    Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

    I personally think local should be replaced with an intel system.

  • Create an intel overview instead of the local chat window: New pilots instantly appear as "unknown pilot, unknown ship".
    • -- This ensures everyone has time to react to a new local if they desire, but that local may be friend or foe... Lots of friendly traffic will desensitize pilots for the incoming hostile!

  • As any pilot gets within your ships scanner range the intel overview is populated with their ship type and pilot name.
    • -- I'd give different ship types different ranges with covops getting the most range, followed next by fleet inties. I'd penalize the "intel range" when you fit a cloak, but perhaps have the ECCM and Backup array modules increase your intel gathering range. We could quibble all you want about the ideal range, but a BS getting ship type at 14ish au, and pilot name at 5 au is fairly reasonable.

  • Cloaked ships remain unknown until they decloak.

  • Intel is automatically shared with every member in fleet
    • -- This promotes team play, and helps boost the role of

  • Wormhole effects inhibit the "ship scanners" in W-space, leaving wspace intel gathering techniques untouched.

    • This is balanced between the hunters and the hunted, doesn't make covert cloaks OMG overpowered god-mode modules, and is what I'd like to see implemented.


    +1

    Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
    Orti Dian
    Xybercon Laboratories
    #188 - 2013-08-14 18:31:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Orti Dian
    Nikk Narrel wrote:

    Noone said it was free to establish.

    But it is free to PvE in. Or, at least a lot safer than any other area of the game.

    It also takes effort by another group to take from you, and you get to oppose that effort.

    It takes a default effort to avoid PvP combat. The hunter does NOT get to oppose this effort, but they can cause a stalemate by not leaving.

    As to living in null over a wormhole? A matter of personal choice, if you can handle all the obstacles present to WH living, it can be a lot of fun.

    Perhaps you should ask why not?

    You know that sov is a recurring bill right? If you don;t pay it, sov drops. It's not a one off payment then you have the system. It cost billions in infrastructure to take it from someone, then it costs billions every month to pay the bill.

    Nikk Narrel wrote:
    Noone in their right mind would ever hot drop, unless that was the only way to catch targets.

    And seriously, if you are not being instantly told for free about exactly who is in the system, how would you know if a roam just rushed in?
    How would you know if a covert cyno went off beyond your scan range?

    Considering you have no way of being instantly warned, the whole point of hot dropping vanishes.

    Only a fool brings a gate equivalent onto grid, in firing range no less, of a pilot or group of pilots who are the most motivated to shoot at it.
    And then add, if they kill the cyno ship BEFORE the others jump through, the others never show up at all.

    Hot dropping simply is no longer justified, in this most common version referred to.

    Hot drops are a pretty common occurence. Even with local they are difficult to combat due to the unknown nature, but at least a 200 man fleet appearing in local is a good indicator. Without local, you'd have to pray you catch a glimpse of them on d-scan, though if the cyno has done his job right, he'd be bringing them in out of d-scan range. Then they simply warp to the you and blap blap blap. Without local, it would definitely make it a bigger problem than most problems you encounter in WH space.
    Orti Dian
    Xybercon Laboratories
    #189 - 2013-08-14 18:37:08 UTC
    Veldaran wrote:
    Orti Dian wrote:
    Nikk Narrel wrote:
    Because high sec space, especially in the event that an alliance has war decs against it, is currently more dangerous than null.

    In high sec space, you can be scouted by out of corp alts, and they can provide a warp in right on top of you. Forget cynos, the guy you were ignoring a minute ago might start shooting you because you look like you are worth the loot.

    In null space, you can avoid all non blue pilots. Short of an awoxxer that could already attack you anywhere in EVE, you can avoid risk completely.

    Now, please explain why this mechanic, which has been twisted into an OP advantage like I just explained, is so necessary in what is laughably the most dangerous space in the game short of a wormhole?

    **** me, you're like a broken record. Yes, null space has an advantage over high. THAT's WHY IT'S NOT FREE. But null only just has an advantage over WH space. REmoving local makes null WAY WAY WAY more dangerous than WH space due to the additional unknowns, and it's already only just more profitable. So again, I ask you, what would encourage an alliance to live in null over a WH.

    I don't think you understand how WHs work if you think that a nullsec alliance could ever move into a single WH (or even a group of them) without extreme discomfort. First, cramming that many people into a single WH would make it's overall profitability per member worse than mining in Highsec with a T1 Cruiser. . . . without boosts or L5 skills. . . The area would be so congested that dscan would be useless: "Are the 14 new ships on dscan all ours?" Rolling static connections to find HS/PvP/PvE would be a nightmare as no reasonable amount of control could be maintained over it. PI would eventually die out from overpopulation, POS storage would be inadequate (unless you allow insane amounts of system pollution through anchored cans) and so on and so forth.

    Also. no moongoo (arguably the primary motivation of SOV atm)

    That really only leaves the option of moving into multiple WHs which defeats the entire purpose of a nullsec alliance: system control. The best you can do is ensure all WHs you move into have the same static to allow your alliance to roll into eachother as needed (if lucky). You would also need to figure out a way to properly divide the alliance into said WHs without ruining any existing collaborations between members.

    At the end of the day, the logistical nightmare of all this is never going to be more appealing to nullsec SOV. I can understand arguments for and against having local (I happen to fall on the side against it being in nullsec, specifically), but I refuse the idea that local is somehow the "only thing" preventing nullsec alliances from moving to WHs.

    WHs are the "only thing" preventing nullsec alliances from moving to WHs. . .

    Yes, I'm aware it would be a nightmare, hence the reason the majority of the population would be in high sec grinding incursions for isk. Moon goo profit is ticking down as it is, one more "balance" and it will be pointless to pull. and you are right, system control is the point of a null sec alliance. but you can;t have system control if you can't even tell what's in any of your systems. You could have a 1000 man blops fleet sitting next to you.
    It's not the only thing, no, but its just 1 more step. Null is already empty enough, so let not make it even less appealing.
    Orti Dian
    Xybercon Laboratories
    #190 - 2013-08-14 18:37:50 UTC
    Harry Forever wrote:
    Orti Dian wrote:
    Harry Forever wrote:
    Galison wrote:
    The issue is harry this wouldn't effect alliances anyways you think it would be that much harder for them to have a cloaky alt or corp member detailed to sit on a gate to provide intel? likely what some or most do anyways not all systems have stations so any intel from them are form alts either posed or cloaked on a gate.

    While on paper it sounds like a good idea it would really only hurt smaller groups who don't have a billion people to spread out on gates for intel anyways. No removing local would more of a negative for small group stuff in null then any advantage from it. or I should say any disadvantages to alliances which is what you seem to be after.


    they might see me go in, but they would not know if I left when they did not look...

    too many words have been posted on this topic, I can feel it, CCP should just switch it for a month and we see how it goes, if alliances ragequit, no problem change it back, sure we need stuff out there to shoot at Cool

    Yeah... Great idea.
    Come on CCP. **** off the biggest news making section of your playerbase, and the section that provides the majority of higher minerals and T2 components, just as a test, then if it doesn't work, home they come running back when you change it back.

    I tell you what Harry (and yes i know this will get me blocked). In the same way, why not try hammering a nail into a wall by smashing your eyeballs into it as hard as you can. If it doesn't work, you can then use a hammer.


    after removing local I'm pretty sure CCP could bring up a service line for your emotional distress, how about that?

    lol.
    Go back to killing cyno's. Your smacktalk needs work.
    Lucas Kell
    Solitude Trading
    S.N.O.T.
    #191 - 2013-08-14 18:41:43 UTC
    Miss Everest wrote:
    I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone but this one comment if probably the reason he made this post.

    There is no longer any space that does not belong to someone, or any way to get to such space without going through someone. And if such a space does happen to exist then it is instantly swallowed by a nearby alliance.

    This frustrates me to no end. How can anyone enjoy the Null playground without having to join one of the what... super coalitions?

    Again not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone just saying this is frustrating...

    This has nowt to do with the local issue though. This is simply the way things will go in an MMO sandbox. Any game where you allow players to pool together will always be dominated by the players that work as a team. Individuals will always fall behind them. To be fair though, that's what wormholes were created for. It's much easier for a tiny group to take and hold a wormhole, and the different classes are there to give you different limits. Don't take a 2 man group into a C6 for example, but I've held a C2 with just alts before.

    The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

    Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
    Harry Forever
    Pandemic Horde Inc.
    Pandemic Horde
    #192 - 2013-08-14 18:52:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Harry Forever
    Orti Dian wrote:
    Harry Forever wrote:
    Orti Dian wrote:
    Harry Forever wrote:
    Galison wrote:
    The issue is harry this wouldn't effect alliances anyways you think it would be that much harder for them to have a cloaky alt or corp member detailed to sit on a gate to provide intel? likely what some or most do anyways not all systems have stations so any intel from them are form alts either posed or cloaked on a gate.

    While on paper it sounds like a good idea it would really only hurt smaller groups who don't have a billion people to spread out on gates for intel anyways. No removing local would more of a negative for small group stuff in null then any advantage from it. or I should say any disadvantages to alliances which is what you seem to be after.


    they might see me go in, but they would not know if I left when they did not look...

    too many words have been posted on this topic, I can feel it, CCP should just switch it for a month and we see how it goes, if alliances ragequit, no problem change it back, sure we need stuff out there to shoot at Cool

    Yeah... Great idea.
    Come on CCP. **** off the biggest news making section of your playerbase, and the section that provides the majority of higher minerals and T2 components, just as a test, then if it doesn't work, home they come running back when you change it back.

    I tell you what Harry (and yes i know this will get me blocked). In the same way, why not try hammering a nail into a wall by smashing your eyeballs into it as hard as you can. If it doesn't work, you can then use a hammer.


    after removing local I'm pretty sure CCP could bring up a service line for your emotional distress, how about that?

    lol.
    Go back to killing cyno's. Your smacktalk needs work.


    all pros shoot some cynos while waiting for other targets, but how should you know, you only made one kill in your whole career

    Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
    Nikk Narrel
    Moonlit Bonsai
    #193 - 2013-08-14 18:58:14 UTC
    Orti Dian wrote:
    You know that sov is a recurring bill right? If you don;t pay it, sov drops. It's not a one off payment then you have the system. It cost billions in infrastructure to take it from someone, then it costs billions every month to pay the bill.

    I see wormhole living becoming more and more desirable.

    Not to mention, the costs of null are balanced along with the risks and rewards.
    By lowering the risks, you also lower the rewards.
    And this, just after pointing out the costs....

    Orti Dian wrote:
    Nikk Narrel wrote:
    Noone in their right mind would ever hot drop, unless that was the only way to catch targets.

    And seriously, if you are not being instantly told for free about exactly who is in the system, how would you know if a roam just rushed in?
    How would you know if a covert cyno went off beyond your scan range?

    Considering you have no way of being instantly warned, the whole point of hot dropping vanishes.

    Only a fool brings a gate equivalent onto grid, in firing range no less, of a pilot or group of pilots who are the most motivated to shoot at it.
    And then add, if they kill the cyno ship BEFORE the others jump through, the others never show up at all.

    Hot dropping simply is no longer justified, in this most common version referred to.

    Hot drops are a pretty common occurence. Even with local they are difficult to combat due to the unknown nature, but at least a 200 man fleet appearing in local is a good indicator. Without local, you'd have to pray you catch a glimpse of them on d-scan, though if the cyno has done his job right, he'd be bringing them in out of d-scan range. Then they simply warp to the you and blap blap blap. Without local, it would definitely make it a bigger problem than most problems you encounter in WH space.

    Detail: That is not a hot drop if it happens off grid from a target. It is a balanced use of the cyno mechanic, when you consider the following details....

    Detail:
    Now, are we describing a 200 man fleet warping in through the gate, rather easy for any scout to notice. The gate traffic around there must look like a boiling teakettle....
    Is it through a cyno, far from the scanning range as you described. Remember, it comes with a great big beacon on the overview to warn the system with.
    Perhaps it is from a covert cyno.... quite an accomplishment for a BLOPs, and a very expensive fleet.

    Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
    Arthur Aihaken
    CODE.d
    #194 - 2013-08-14 19:02:32 UTC
    Here's my KISS solution: just eliminate local in low and null.

    Regardless of which side of the fence you fall on, here's the simple rationale: it will encourage droves of players to venture out of high-sec for parts unknown. Why? Because players will actually have a reasonable chance of slipping into a system undetected. And once there, it will require actual WORK to scan them down: D-scan, combat probes or methodically visiting locations. This applies equally to both predator and prey.

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
    Orti Dian
    Xybercon Laboratories
    #195 - 2013-08-14 20:28:18 UTC
    Harry Forever wrote:
    all pros shoot some cynos while waiting for other targets, but how should you know, you only made one kill in your whole career

    Yep, my high sec alt doesn't tend to get many kills.
    And you my friend ar far far FAR from pro. You kills a few cynos and haulers and lose a whole load of bombers, and that makes you a pro? L2P nubbin.

    Nikk Narrel wrote:
    Detail:
    Now, are we describing a 200 man fleet warping in through the gate, rather easy for any scout to notice. The gate traffic around there must look like a boiling teakettle....
    Is it through a cyno, far from the scanning range as you described. Remember, it comes with a great big beacon on the overview to warn the system with.
    Perhaps it is from a covert cyno.... quite an accomplishment for a BLOPs, and a very expensive fleet.

    the 200 man fleet could easily be cynod in, and a blops, fuel truck and bomber fleet is pretty cheap. You don;t seem to get it. This is not an uncommon occurrence now. Like it happens all the time. So you can dispute it all you want, but if it happens now, it would only happen more if they had an easier time avoiding detection.
    Orti Dian
    Xybercon Laboratories
    #196 - 2013-08-14 20:31:03 UTC
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    Here's my KISS solution: just eliminate local in low and null.

    Regardless of which side of the fence you fall on, here's the simple rationale: it will encourage droves of players to venture out of high-sec for parts unknown. Why? Because players will actually have a reasonable chance of slipping into a system undetected. And once there, it will require actual WORK to scan them down: D-scan, combat probes or methodically visiting locations. This applies equally to both predator and prey.

    Well thankfully CCP aren't short-sighted and know that while this would cause a small boost in people "venturing" out of high sec, it would become boring quick, all the flying around empty space, and destroy null sec mechanics, which is what get's their game in international news.
    Harry Forever
    Pandemic Horde Inc.
    Pandemic Horde
    #197 - 2013-08-14 20:47:40 UTC
    Orti Dian wrote:
    Harry Forever wrote:
    all pros shoot some cynos while waiting for other targets, but how should you know, you only made one kill in your whole career

    Yep, my high sec alt doesn't tend to get many kills.
    And you my friend ar far far FAR from pro. You kills a few cynos and haulers and lose a whole load of bombers, and that makes you a pro?


    just told you that all pros shoot cynos while waiting and that you know nothing about that

    you do not even have the balls to post with your main... how convenient

    Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
    Kallius Petrovich
    Warping Into The Sun
    #198 - 2013-08-14 21:30:04 UTC
    Orti Dian wrote:

    If local were removed, null will essentially be WH space right?
    Except WH space can't have cynos lit. And WH space is restricted on ship size (so you can guaranteed no carriers if you want, or no battleships). WH space is also (generally) closer to high sec. WH space also has fewer choke points to check for intel.

    So should they make this change, what would encourage an alliance to pay billions a month in sov to hold a null sec system, when they can just go find a few wormholes?


    So the mechanics of nullsec are such that this would be too much of a burden to defend space if local were removed. Which is the same as saying that it would be too hard without local. I'm sorry that you don't like thinking about it that way, but that's what you've said.

    Moving on, this means we have one group that finds a mechanic advantageous and another than finds that same mechanic burdensome. So the question is: was this actually intended to be a game mechanic? I feel like perhaps not. The whole local thing feels like metagaming to me.
    Commander Ted
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #199 - 2013-08-14 22:43:38 UTC
    Orti Dian wrote:

    L O L
    Yeah must be it. Low sec is just crawling with supers all over. And covert ops ships never kill anything solo. You must be one of them geniuses.
    My sincerest apologies, I didn't realise you were a nub.


    Such tricks only work on the moronic and weak.

    https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
    Commander Ted
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #200 - 2013-08-14 22:46:35 UTC
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    Here's my KISS solution: just eliminate local in low and null.

    Regardless of which side of the fence you fall on, here's the simple rationale: it will encourage droves of players to venture out of high-sec for parts unknown. Why? Because players will actually have a reasonable chance of slipping into a system undetected. And once there, it will require actual WORK to scan them down: D-scan, combat probes or methodically visiting locations. This applies equally to both predator and prey.


    Definitely, the mechanics of Eve are such that once you become competent in the games core mechanics your are pretty much invulnerable be a predator or prey and the only people you find are people ballsy enough to risk there ship for no gain or noobs.

    https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.