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Foundations of Freedom: An Open Essay

Author
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2013-08-12 22:19:23 UTC
Repentence Tyrathlion wrote:
Or we could just get Ms Akahoshi to provide the original medical records.

I think we should.

I think we definitely should.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#62 - 2013-08-12 22:28:29 UTC
Even if she had been donated Gallente blood at some prior point, wouldn't her body have replaced most of it with her own blood by this point? I can't recall how frequently the body effectively replaces its blood.

Unless there was a marrow donation involved. That would be-- problematic.

I somehow suspect Kim-haani will have medical bills coming up.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#63 - 2013-08-12 22:32:15 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
Even if she had been donated Gallente blood at some prior point, wouldn't her body have replaced most of it with her own blood by this point? I can't recall how frequently the body effectively replaces its blood.

Unless there was a marrow donation involved. That would be-- problematic.

The solution is easier than you would expect, Priano-haani, and I gave you hint already.

Makoto Priano wrote:
I somehow suspect Kim-haani will have medical bills coming up.

Nope.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#64 - 2013-08-12 22:36:33 UTC
Freedom is being a citizen of the Federation.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#65 - 2013-08-12 22:42:08 UTC
And this is why the Federation must be destroyed!

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#66 - 2013-08-12 22:46:26 UTC
Ah, pardon, Kim-haani; I haven't read this thread very closely.

Philosophical debates on the Summit tend to be, well-- tend to be a bit of a wreck, to be honest.

I'll correct that misstep.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#67 - 2013-08-13 15:38:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Ava Starfire
The OP was pretty spot-on with his description of Matari society; we all support the Clan, and to a lesser extend, the Tribe. The Tribe, and Clan, in return, supports us. If the Clan prospers, the individual prospers. If the Clan suffers, the individual suffers. Our "Freedom" is in the choices we make to do that.

We may become a soldier. We may become a tailor. We may become a Shaman. We may even do all three at once. All three are of vital importance, as each one fills a need, a niche, a brick in the wall which comprises the " whole " of the clan.

What matters is that we do so to strengthen the whole. The Tribe. The Clan. My glory, my failures, my hardships, are theirs. Theirs are mine. We are expected by millenia of traditions to Walk The Path, as we call it, to lead a life of choices and deeds that benefit those around us, which strengthen and support the whole.

Our "freedom" is in choosing how to do that, what path to walk - with guidance from the Voluval, of course.

We are also free to choose not to do so. Doing so means forsaking all that makes us "us", and will lead down a very lonely, cold road.

We are still " free " to make that choice.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"

Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2013-08-13 15:56:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Shintoko Akahoshi
In my opinion, what Starfire just said is probably the biggest point of contention between the Federation and the Republic.

In Republic Matari society, the tribe and clan are the focus, and their members are encouraged to do the things they do in order to strengthen their clan and tribe. There's not really a lot of movement between clans and tribes - what I mean is, if I'm born a Sebiestor of the Starfire clan, I can't easily go join the Deep Swimmers clan of the Brutor tribe. I could marry into it, but I can't really just join up by deciding to.

This is seen as pretty regressive in the Federation. "Of course I should be able to choose my own group.", we might say.

It's interesting to compare Republic Matari society to the State. While there is probably more mobility, in that some do go to work for other corporations, there's the same focus on doing what you do for the benefit of your corporation, and by extension, your State. When you peel back the layers of Caldari society, as well, you'll start to find a layer where the unspoken agreement adds "...assuming you're one of the Caldari race" to "work hard and succeed".

In that sense it's pretty obvious why people like Stitcher dedicate themselves to building a Caldari-Republic relationship. The two cultures, when you look at them from this angle, are both far closer than they are to the Federation.

As an intellectual exercise, too, it's interesting to examine the Amarr Empire. While there are ethnic Amarr, just as there are ethnic Gallente, they're more than willing to call someone Amarrian if they've accepted their religion. Just as we're more than willing to call someone Gallente if they've accepted our culture.

Oh, and as a postscript, for pilot Tyrathlion: While I'm unwilling to provide the records, I can answer in the affirmative.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#69 - 2013-08-13 20:33:31 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
The OP was pretty spot-on with his description of Matari society; we all support the Clan, and to a lesser extend, the Tribe. The Tribe, and Clan, in return, supports us. If the Clan prospers, the individual prospers. If the Clan suffers, the individual suffers.

I am actually starting to like minmatars...

Ava Starfire wrote:

Our "Freedom" is in the choices we make to do that.

And now I have stop.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#70 - 2013-08-13 20:47:19 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Ava Starfire wrote:
The OP was pretty spot-on with his description of Matari society; we all support the Clan, and to a lesser extend, the Tribe. The Tribe, and Clan, in return, supports us. If the Clan prospers, the individual prospers. If the Clan suffers, the individual suffers.

I am actually starting to like minmatars...

Ava Starfire wrote:

Our "Freedom" is in the choices we make to do that.

And now I have stop.



I was just hoping "Oh gee, I hope Diana Kim is ok with my people and our way of life!"

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#71 - 2013-08-13 20:54:55 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
Ah, pardon, Kim-haani; I haven't read this thread very closely.

Philosophical debates on the Summit tend to be, well-- tend to be a bit of a wreck, to be honest.

I'll correct that misstep.

No worries, Priano-haani!
Seems like gallenteans prefer to discuss my blood instead of the philosophy. But I have nothing to hide here. They may discuss and insult as much as they can, this won't make my blood gallentean.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#72 - 2013-08-14 05:26:26 UTC
It is only through service to others that we find value in our own lives. The more people who can depend on your service, the more value your life has.

I'll take that over "freedom" any day.

Meanwhile, less philosophical and more political:

Freedom is whatever your government trusts you to do for yourself without screwing up. That's it. What people often forget is that Rights and Responsibility are two edges of the same sword. When you have the Right to do something what that really means is that your government has entrusted you with the Freedom to take on a Responsibility to use the Right without screwing up. If you screw up the Responsibility then you'll lose the Rights.

For example, we trust members of society to not go around stabbing each other. To be responsible with their knives and their tempers. If they screw up and start stabbing people then poof goes their rights - off to prison they go. Almost all laws are just variations of this. But it doesn't always take a criminal act: If someone is mentally ill and thus can't handle the Responsibility of functioning in society on their own then the government will step in and put them in a nice quiet place weaving baskets. Yes, their Rights are stripped away because they can't handle the Responsibility that goes with it. The same goes for children, whom have very few rights in comparison to their parents, because society knows that they are not ready for the Responsibilities of adults and therefore doesn't grant them the Rights of adults, either.

As my auntie probably mentioned before, more than a few of the "personal servants" (read: slaves) of our household estate fall into the category of "damaged" people. One girl is... well, not terribly bright. One is exceedingly old & feeble. And so on. Long story short is that they're really not fit to be taking care of themselves so we take of them instead. Yes, their Rights have been removed but then so have their Responsibilities as well. That job falls to us & the more fit and able members of our staff. See "Service" above.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#73 - 2013-08-14 12:23:59 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
It is only through service to others that we find value in our own lives. The more people who can depend on your service, the more value your life has.

I'll take that over "freedom" any day.


The entire point I'm making is that the two are not incompatible.

If service to others is valuable, then service to others willingly and freely given without duress is vastly more so.

So much more so in fact, that I believe that its existence renders service under duress, given out of fear of force and punishment rather than willing compassion, neither valuable nor beautiful at all.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Havohej
Cretus Incendium
Electus Matari
#74 - 2013-08-19 13:24:39 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
What matters is that we do so to strengthen the whole. The Tribe. The Clan. My glory, my failures, my hardships, are theirs. Theirs are mine. We are expected by millenia of traditions to Walk The Path, as we call it, to lead a life of choices and deeds that benefit those around us, which strengthen and support the whole.

Our "freedom" is in choosing how to do that, what path to walk - with guidance from the Voluval, of course.

We are also free to choose not to do so. Doing so means forsaking all that makes us "us", and will lead down a very lonely, cold road.

I've watched this thread, curious to see if it would ever come away from the ever-entertaining verbal sparring with Pilot Kim. I am not surprised that it should be Pilot Starfire to bring things back on course. The quoted passage in particular prompts me to add my opinion to this topic.

I have a Voluval mark. It is a black one. One of the blackest a Matari can receive. If not for being a Thukker, I may well have been cast out for the mark I received. For years, I was skeptical of the veracity and authenticity of the modern Voluval... but, years having passed and lessons having been learned, I now know that there is nothing bogus about it.

I am not a good man. My life may well be fore-ordained. That is galling, but Pilot Starfire is right. We do have a choice in how to walk our path... or not walk our path. In the beginning, I thought I was choosing not to walk it at all. In hindsight, I see that deep down, I chose at every crossroads to walk the very path set before me and to glory in it. Ironically, it was a Caldari member of the Angel Cartel (at that time) who gave me the insight that allowed me to understand... well. Some of the truth of myself.

Was the road that I chose lonely and cold? Yes. And it still is. I doubt that will ever change. Could I walk any other? Not without losing myself and surrendering the very freedom for which I walk it.

Felix Rasker wrote:
Ask yourself: what makes you free? Your religion? Your nation? Your actions?

I should say that I am made free by my acknowledgement that what was before... is not now. Acknowledging this has freed me from the obligations of our Social Contract - every society has one, which I am sure you must understand. I expect you've contemplated exempting yourself from it entirely more than once. And once free of this "contract," once unencumbered by an "objective standard" that is in no way objective, what is left to guide us but our own will?

Felix Rasker wrote:
What should be the fate of a government or a nation that denies this primeval notion of “freedom,” whether the parent culture considers freedom intrinsic or extrinsic? Reform? Rebellion? Annihilation?

Do you not answer your own question here by the order in which you deliver your guesses? Reform? Not feasible. Rebellion? Not effective enough. Annihilation...

Now we're getting somewhere.

Felix Rasker wrote:
Ask yourself: are you free at all?

I do. In fact, I ask myself this question daily. And if I find myself doubting that the answer is yes for just one moment, I seek ways to effect a change in that self-perception. Usually at someone else's expense, and that is unfortunate... but such is life.

Felix Rasker wrote:
Does your government promise prosperity through the sacrifice of freedom, only to repay your offer with surveillance and mistrust? When you are told something is being done for your own good, yet you see no improvement in your quality of life, do you still consider yourself free? When government becomes overrun with closed-door politics and bribery, do you lose your freedom, or should you take it back?

We are capsuleers, now... there was a time when we truly had to worry about our governments. And then, their programs endowed us with the power to annihilate entire fleets of their security forces all by ourselves. And in the end, what means does any government have by which to enforce its will upon us but their military power? An Infomorph is a government, Pilot. Think on that for a time.

How lonely and cold is your road, Pilot Rasker? Have you passed through the Voluval ceremony? If you have, I'll bet your mark bodes as ill as my own. How long until you decide that it doesn't matter how much good you do for the People? How long until you realize that despite being of them, you were never one of them? That you aren't even of the same species anymore? That the cleanest of freedoms available to an infomorph is to disconnect oneself from the ties of human society and focus on how we can use them to do for ourselves?

Strike us like matches, 'cause everyone deserves the flames.

OOC Forums @ Backstage

Nicolas Merovech
Doomheim
#75 - 2013-08-19 17:32:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolas Merovech
Diana Kim wrote:
What makes a man free?...

Absence of home will make a man free.
Absence of love will make a man free.
Absence of friends will make a man free.
Absence of possessions will make a man free.
Absence of duty will make a man free.
Absence of law will make a man free.
Absence of moral will make a man free.
Absence of responsibility will make a man free.
Absence of religion will make a man free.
Absence of traditions will make a man free.

Now answer my question: do YOU want to be free?..


Close, but not quite, Kim-haani. While an excellent point, your view is another extreme on the spectrum; true freedom is found within balance. The Seidaa of the the Seyrvind clan in the Great Sobaki desert of Matar have a saying: "Remove all of your chains, and you will be a slave to your desires. Master yourself, and you shall find your liberty." I'm sure you would agree, coming from a culture that so greatly emphasizes discipline.

Dr. Nicolas A. Merovech, Ph. D, M.D.

Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#76 - 2013-08-19 17:55:10 UTC
Havohej wrote:
We are capsuleers, now... there was a time when we truly had to worry about our governments. And then, their programs endowed us with the power to annihilate entire fleets of their security forces all by ourselves. And in the end, what means does any government have by which to enforce its will upon us but their military power? An Infomorph is a government, Pilot. Think on that for a time.


Do not think yourself beyond the reach of Empires, sir. Think of the words you've spoken here when next you are ensnared in CONCORD's net, and ask whether you are truly without bound or master.
Cyrus Alabel
Azure Wrath
#77 - 2013-08-19 18:12:13 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
Do not think yourself beyond the reach of Empires, sir. Think of the words you've spoken here when next you are ensnared in CONCORD's net, and ask whether you are truly without bound or master.


And yet, we can leave the space controlled by Concord. We can go to nullsec, literally defined by its lack of theirs or empire control. Or the space we find in the wormholes. They are difficult lives, but they are options outside of Concord's jurisdiction.
Caroline Grace
Retrostellar Boulevard
#78 - 2013-08-19 18:27:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Caroline Grace
Cyrus Alabel wrote:
Scherezad wrote:
Do not think yourself beyond the reach of Empires, sir. Think of the words you've spoken here when next you are ensnared in CONCORD's net, and ask whether you are truly without bound or master.


And yet, we can leave the space controlled by Concord. We can go to nullsec, literally defined by its lack of theirs or empire control. Or the space we find in the wormholes. They are difficult lives, but they are options outside of Concord's jurisdiction.


Erhm, without active Pilot License which you need to buy or obtain every month, CONCORD won't let you be in space, no matter where you are, good sir. CONCORD's jurisdiction is pretty much everywhere (yes, even in wormholes).

You would think you can hide yourself in some deep quiet wormhole or in distant nullsec system -- but nope; you still need to obtain a PLEX to be able to wake up in your clone and / or pilot a spaceship.

Well, unless you go planet-side, that is.

I'm Caroline Grace, and this is my favorite musical on the Citadel.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#79 - 2013-08-20 06:25:26 UTC
Havohej wrote:

Felix Rasker wrote:
What should be the fate of a government or a nation that denies this primeval notion of “freedom,” whether the parent culture considers freedom intrinsic or extrinsic? Reform? Rebellion? Annihilation?

Do you not answer your own question here by the order in which you deliver your guesses? Reform? Not feasible. Rebellion? Not effective enough. Annihilation...

Now we're getting somewhere.

Annihilation
This is a good word that I would use to describe what should happen to a nation, that is stuck with such dirty ideal as a freedom.
Or rather... what should we make happen to such nation.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#80 - 2013-08-20 06:27:35 UTC
Nicolas Merovech wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
What makes a man free?...

Absence of home will make a man free.
Absence of love will make a man free.
Absence of friends will make a man free.
Absence of possessions will make a man free.
Absence of duty will make a man free.
Absence of law will make a man free.
Absence of moral will make a man free.
Absence of responsibility will make a man free.
Absence of religion will make a man free.
Absence of traditions will make a man free.

Now answer my question: do YOU want to be free?..


Close, but not quite, Kim-haani. While an excellent point, your view is another extreme on the spectrum; true freedom is found within balance. The Seidaa of the the Seyrvind clan in the Great Sobaki desert of Matar have a saying: "Remove all of your chains, and you will be a slave to your desires. Master yourself, and you shall find your liberty." I'm sure you would agree, coming from a culture that so greatly emphasizes discipline.

True freedom as well as true liberty are evil in its purest forms. Whether I would delve into the search, I won't be looking for either freedom or liberty, but rather for those, who tend to practice them. You know, in order to destroy them. For the sake of whole humanity.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.