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The best dps ship for HQ incursions
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Cpt Tirel
Institute For Continuous Glory
#41 - 2013-08-11 11:53:35 UTC
Jacob Holland wrote:
Cpt Tirel wrote:
You forgot to include the drone dps here,

No, I didn't.

Quote:
which means the Navy Geddon outdamages it by over 400 dps. Actually 480 with perfect skills, +6 implants and correct fit.

Then I'm obviously missing something - because with 4 IN Heat Sinks and a T2 ROF rig I'm not seeing that... In fact what I'm seeing is less than 100DPS difference.

[Fake Edit]
In fact what I've missed is that, unlike Gleam, Conflag doesn't have a further range penalty over MF and therefore I've incorrectly loaded the Navy 'geddon with INMF.
So the Navy 'geddon does have a larger advantage over the Tach'mare at Vindicator ranges than I previously thought... Though if you're static at your sentries and able to fight at Vindicator ranges why would you not do so in a Vindicator and load Garde IIs if the Vindi matches your guns and drones with just its guns?


With all skills level V, 4 navy heat sinks and two +6 damage implants the beam NM has 1101 dps with navy multi. Drone dps not included because a sniper with 75m3 drone space will have its drones on the drone bunny most of the time and the dps from the drones will be applied on other target than main tags.
Pulse Navy Geddon with same advantages as this NM has 1580 dps with its sentries included.

A Vindi has to move a lot more than a pulse boat because of its blasters, so sentries is pointless for anything other than tower bash, most of them use heavies.
Cpt Tirel
Institute For Continuous Glory
#42 - 2013-08-11 11:57:50 UTC
The Navy Geddon can also use a T2 damage rig and still have enough calibration for two T1 resist rigs, while the NM lacks the calibration for that.
Capt Sephiroth
#43 - 2013-08-11 23:57:14 UTC
So I did a bit of pyfa warrioring myself since I just find all this info a bit odd and this is what I got.

The question that poped up 1st was why are you comparing a dps geddon and a sniper nightmare when they fit 2 completely different roles in fleets, one is a long range 100km+ dmg dealer and the other one is a close combat dpser?

If you would for example compare NM and geddon both with pulse fits then you would realize that the difference between a geddon and a NM with conflag fitted, geddon having 5 garde II's while NM having 3 garde II's, geddon having 1209 gun dps and 300 drone dps while NM has 1295 gun dps and 180 drone dps which means that geddon wins there in numbers by 34 total dps. However if you add in the tracking and applied dps things go bit south for our geddon since NM wins there hands down cause of the ability of fitting 3 tracking comps in mids and the caldari battleship skill bonus per level bringing NM tracking speed at the same optimal range as geddon to 0.07 unlike geddon who is sitting at 0.0373, so almost 2x better tracking which means much better applied damage. Plus NM has a greater gun dps than geddon so more dmg from start with guns only.

Now let us see scorch ammo, say we brought bouncers so that our gun and drone optimals are similar, we are getting these numbers, geddon sitting at 864 gun and 263 drone dps, while NM is sitting at 925 gun and 158 drone dps which means geddon wins by 43dps. Then again we bring in tracking in equation, the applied dps, with NM sitting at 0.754 and geddon sitting at 0.4, not double but close, which means that NM has much better applied gun dps not to mention that his gun dps is greater by 61.

So from this I have to conclude that NM comes of as a clear winner and a superior ship than geddon when it comes to having same type of guns fitted.

I would also like to mention the cost effectiveness of NM for having 4 turrets compared to 7 of a geddon.

The comparison was done using only 2x6% dmg increase implants and no rigs fitted.

Best regards

Capt
Cpt Tirel
Institute For Continuous Glory
#44 - 2013-08-12 10:06:19 UTC
Capt Sephiroth wrote:
So I did a bit of pyfa warrioring myself since I just find all this info a bit odd and this is what I got.

The question that poped up 1st was why are you comparing a dps geddon and a sniper nightmare when they fit 2 completely different roles in fleets, one is a long range 100km+ dmg dealer and the other one is a close combat dpser?

If you would for example compare NM and geddon both with pulse fits then you would realize that the difference between a geddon and a NM with conflag fitted, geddon having 5 garde II's while NM having 3 garde II's, geddon having 1209 gun dps and 300 drone dps while NM has 1295 gun dps and 180 drone dps which means that geddon wins there in numbers by 34 total dps. However if you add in the tracking and applied dps things go bit south for our geddon since NM wins there hands down cause of the ability of fitting 3 tracking comps in mids and the caldari battleship skill bonus per level bringing NM tracking speed at the same optimal range as geddon to 0.07 unlike geddon who is sitting at 0.0373, so almost 2x better tracking which means much better applied damage. Plus NM has a greater gun dps than geddon so more dmg from start with guns only.

Now let us see scorch ammo, say we brought bouncers so that our gun and drone optimals are similar, we are getting these numbers, geddon sitting at 864 gun and 263 drone dps, while NM is sitting at 925 gun and 158 drone dps which means geddon wins by 43dps. Then again we bring in tracking in equation, the applied dps, with NM sitting at 0.754 and geddon sitting at 0.4, not double but close, which means that NM has much better applied gun dps not to mention that his gun dps is greater by 61.

So from this I have to conclude that NM comes of as a clear winner and a superior ship than geddon when it comes to having same type of guns fitted.

I would also like to mention the cost effectiveness of NM for having 4 turrets compared to 7 of a geddon.

The comparison was done using only 2x6% dmg increase implants and no rigs fitted.

Best regards

Capt


You should read the whole thread before making a comment like this, if you did you would have noticed that i allready explained what you ask in the frist three lines.

Medium drones are really bad to use as DPS in HQ pockets because they need to travel a lot you might aswell use light drones, which is what most people in NM's and other ships with 75m3 dronebay do. The sniper role the NM has makes them even less viable. Even if the NM's were pulse, they'd be pretty bad and inefficient. Their paper DPS from drones is useless for anything other than tower bash.

Ive also allready explained that the tracking argument is not really valid because pulse lasers with 2 TE's is more than enough for HQ sites.
Capt Sephiroth
#45 - 2013-08-13 16:45:50 UTC
I read the thread and I didn't see anyone comparing a pulse NM to your pulse geddon, you only mention how pulses with 2 TE track enough for HQ and you stopped there when there was no comparison on how good the tracking of a pulse NM was and how its range was superior as well. Even if there was a switch from beam to pulse ships a NM would still be a better option than a geddon cause of better applied dps, tracking is always a factor, its not only about hitting the ship, the better the tracking the more excellent and wrecking shots there will be which in return means more dps.

And why wouldn't a NM pilot fill its drone bay with 3 sentries if he was in your theory fleet of just vindicators and geddons but instead of geddons you would have pulse NM's, while not on tower bash all vindi's can put light drones on drone bunnies and deal with those frigs while on tower bash they all pull out their sentry drones and destroy that tower.

Tracking of unmodified sentries is bad and if you pay closer attention you will see that they mostly either just hit or graze targets so your full rack of sentry drones won't come close to that paper dps you are bragging about, and when it comes to gun dps NM wins there.

On paper geddon has more total dps but in combat a pulse NM will do w/e geddon can do and do it much better... So no geddon will not replace a NM at this point of time...
Silver Getsuga
Liber Primus
#46 - 2013-08-13 20:50:22 UTC
Math nerds in da house.

Lets imagine HP numbers of NPC ships are distributed evenly. On average your ship will waste half of it's alpha (the last shot will overshoot). So yeah. When we talk about shooting cans alpha is harmful. But alpha may be good if you need to destroy/bring to shields or hull a ship in a _single_ shot. If you need second shot, then DPS rocks and alpha isn't.

Cpt Tirel wrote:
Cage Man wrote:
You will very quickly see the Raven out perform the Tengu


Summary of this: beam NM is a better PVE sniper than artillery Machariel. And Navy geddon still has more to offer in HQ sites than both of them.



I'm no expert on EVE or high end PVE content. But I've played in EFT and I don't see how's NM is better than Mach. Mach got better projection. So it outdpses NM at 60km and more (if both use navy ammo, gleam's weak for sniping). But I'm not sure what's typical range of engagement of snipers in incursions though.

But who am I to judge? Hell I think Rail Vindi is better sniper than Mach and NM :D
Capt Sephiroth
#47 - 2013-08-13 22:08:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Capt Sephiroth
I really don't know where your numbers came from but a NM has more dps than a mach at that range without much trouble plus beams have better tracking than arty, the good thing about mach's is their speed and their alfa which comes in handy when someone tries to contest or people like to have some fun time and instantly pop ships... And they don't have cap issues, but then again nor do cap buddy NM's... which is sometimes hard to find...
Silver Getsuga
Liber Primus
#48 - 2013-08-13 22:36:19 UTC
Capt Sephiroth wrote:
I really don't know where your numbers came from but a NM has more dps than a mach at that range without much trouble plus beams have better tracking than arty, the good thing about mach's is their speed and their alfa which comes in handy when someone tries to contest or people like to have some fun time and instantly pop ships... And they don't have cap issues, but then again nor do cap buddy NM's... which is sometimes hard to find...


Oh god, yes, I am wrong. Forgot that one can use something other than EMP and MF. Indeed. with crystal switching NM is ahead of Mach by 100-200 dps.

So Mach's not that great I guess. DPS-wise it only can be saved by selectable weapon damage.
Capt Sephiroth
#49 - 2013-08-13 22:38:49 UTC
Yeah you are right about that how mach's can select damage type which is a great thing as well, I forgot to mention that since we are talking about incursion rats and they have uniform resists.
goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#50 - 2013-08-14 03:15:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldiiee
I'll make it simple.

Saved for the OMG's
22:58:03 Combat Your group of 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II places an excellent hit on True Power Mobile Headquarters, inflicting 24355.9 damage.

Last fleet picked some from log
18:18:14 ] (combat)-13641-to- Romi Thalamus - 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II – Smashes
18:53:59 ] (combat)-17539-to-Intaki Colliculus 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II – Penetrates
18:47:31 ] (combat)-14854-to-Outuni Mesen - 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II – Penetrates
18:40:57 ] (combat)-15575-to-Yulai Crus Cerebi - 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II – Penetrates
18:37:31 ] (combat)-14612-to-Sansha Battletower - 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II – Hits
18:37:47 ] (combat)-15616
18:37:52 ] (combat)-20164
18:38:08 ] (combat)-17139
18:38:20 ] (combat)-18772
18:38:35 ] (combat)-17064
18:38:50 ] (combat)-17696

Ranges from 21km out to 90+km, Trade in your Geddon and get-on the right ship.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Capt Sephiroth
#51 - 2013-08-14 06:40:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Capt Sephiroth
This is like saying bring a SUV to a drag race cause its big...
Cpt Tirel
Institute For Continuous Glory
#52 - 2013-08-14 11:39:10 UTC
Capt Sephiroth wrote:
I read the thread and I didn't see anyone comparing a pulse NM to your pulse geddon, you only mention how pulses with 2 TE track enough for HQ and you stopped there when there was no comparison on how good the tracking of a pulse NM was and how its range was superior as well. Even if there was a switch from beam to pulse ships a NM would still be a better option than a geddon cause of better applied dps, tracking is always a factor, its not only about hitting the ship, the better the tracking the more excellent and wrecking shots there will be which in return means more dps.

And why wouldn't a NM pilot fill its drone bay with 3 sentries if he was in your theory fleet of just vindicators and geddons but instead of geddons you would have pulse NM's, while not on tower bash all vindi's can put light drones on drone bunnies and deal with those frigs while on tower bash they all pull out their sentry drones and destroy that tower.

Tracking of unmodified sentries is bad and if you pay closer attention you will see that they mostly either just hit or graze targets so your full rack of sentry drones won't come close to that paper dps you are bragging about, and when it comes to gun dps NM wins there.

On paper geddon has more total dps but in combat a pulse NM will do w/e geddon can do and do it much better... So no geddon will not replace a NM at this point of time...


Tracking only affect your chance to hit. It does not increase number of wrecking shots unless you're shooting something thats hard to track. This will rarely be of benefit in HQ sites because as i have explained most targets will be webbed by Vindis or killed from long range (low transversal).

Using three sentries is pointless, using 5x light and 5x medium drones is so much better with that drone space. Three sentries do only slightly more dps than the mediums and you wont have space for the five light drones to give to the drone bunny. Forcing light drones on the Vindicators because of this is just stupid.

Because of travel time, the NM's drones will never do much more effective dps than light drones can do(100 dps) so a fleet containing 20 Navy Geddons will have 4000 more dps from drones than if those were NM's.
And since the NM lacks calibration to fit a T2 damage rig the NM only gets 12 more dps than the Navy Geddon from turrets.
(Both ships with pulses, +6 damage implants, 4 faction damage mods, and T2 damage rig on the Navy Geddon has: 1288 DPS and the NM has 1300 DPS from turrets.)

Lastly youre wrong again about the drones, they are supposed to hit close range dps spawns (that Vindis web) and the tower, they track exellent for that. Go try it out if you doubt me.
Silver Getsuga
Liber Primus
#53 - 2013-08-14 13:33:45 UTC
Btw, drones given to a drone bunny do DPS too. Account for that.
Also, what fit are you using for Incursions (assuming you get invites) on your Geddon?
Capt Sephiroth
#54 - 2013-08-14 14:11:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Capt Sephiroth
Its not 1288 to 1300 its 1287 to 1379 gun dps with better tracking that matters since your chance to hit is greater which in return means more wrecking and excellent shots which means more dps. Geddons tracking may be enough to hit targets that are webbed by vindi's but care to explain to me how will those vindies web your long range targets, will they MJD to them and keep them webbed for you as well since no, geddons tracking speed is not enough to ensure a 100% hit chance of long range targets with their transversal speed, not to mention that the NM has greater range so it can start shooting at the targets sooner. Even with hammerheads on tower bashing the total difference in dps is 49dps and that is only on tower bashing.

Another thing I would like to ask is would your geddons be using sentries throughout the site, if so then who will be killing the frigs?

You are saying that drones need to fly to their targets, well care to explain to me how you plan to move around with your sentries outside all the time? Isnt having to pull them in then carry them to the next anchor point to drop them almost the same thing, lost dps?
Cpt Tirel
Institute For Continuous Glory
#55 - 2013-08-15 11:15:47 UTC
Silver Getsuga wrote:
Btw, drones given to a drone bunny do DPS too. Account for that.
Also, what fit are you using for Incursions (assuming you get invites) on your Geddon?


[Armageddon Navy Issue, New Setup 1 copy 1]
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Capacitor Power Relay
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer
Damage Control II

Pithum B-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithum A-Type EM Ward Amplifier
Large Shield Extender II
Gist X-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive

Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Chelm's Modified Heavy Nosferatu

Large Energy Burst Aerator II
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I


Garde II x5
Cpt Tirel
Institute For Continuous Glory
#56 - 2013-08-15 11:24:35 UTC
Capt Sephiroth wrote:
Its not 1288 to 1300 its 1287 to 1379 gun dps with better tracking that matters since your chance to hit is greater which in return means more wrecking and excellent shots which means more dps. Geddons tracking may be enough to hit targets that are webbed by vindi's but care to explain to me how will those vindies web your long range targets, will they MJD to them and keep them webbed for you as well since no, geddons tracking speed is not enough to ensure a 100% hit chance of long range targets with their transversal speed, not to mention that the NM has greater range so it can start shooting at the targets sooner. Even with hammerheads on tower bashing the total difference in dps is 49dps and that is only on tower bashing.

Another thing I would like to ask is would your geddons be using sentries throughout the site, if so then who will be killing the frigs?

You are saying that drones need to fly to their targets, well care to explain to me how you plan to move around with your sentries outside all the time? Isnt having to pull them in then carry them to the next anchor point to drop them almost the same thing, lost dps?


No it is 1288. Show me the NM fit with 1379 DPS please.

The tracking bonus is not insignificant, but i dont think it is enough to to make a pulse NM better for HQ's than the NG.

Vindis can web and kill most frigs in all three sites. The few places where they cant the NG's can switch out to light drones as they have 200m3 drone space.

The only place i need to move twice in a NG is in NRF sites, and it takes me about 20 seconds. In all other pockets/sites i just burn MWD to my position and sit there untill the site is clear.
Capt Sephiroth
#57 - 2013-08-15 13:02:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Capt Sephiroth
So let me get this straight, you will rather have your vindi's to waste webs and dps to kill the frigates instead of having assign your light drones to a drone bunny and have him kill them? hmmm...

And in those few places where geddons switch to light drones and give them to drone bunnies NM would have clear dps advantage.

You do realize that when those vindi's switch their webs you will not be having that many hits cause of your poor tracking and your drones would be even worse...

A NM with 4 imp navy heat sinks, a burst aerator II with 6% implants has 1379 dps with all skills on 5... So yeah a NM can have that much dps...

Aw my if thats the fit you use and compare to NM then not only does NM have better range but double the tracking...

So you do not think that a ship that has much better tracking, has a 65+20 compared to 56+15km or in your case 53+14km (forgot to mention that I used t2 tracking computers while on geddon I used faction TE's), does fire 1 sec slower but has a 1.8k higher volley with conflag and 1.1k higher volley with scorch and can target further, is better than your geddon?

And in subjective opinion looks more bad ass with those spikes and all compared to geddon who looks like a giant dildo...

The only reason why you are emphasizing that geddon is better is cause of the ability to field a full flight of UNBONUSED sentry drones whose dps is not even close to that paper dps that eft, pyfa and other fitting programs show... And even if you could bring that paper dps to Eve the difference at tower bashing would be 49 dps win for geddon, and thats with NM's using hammerheads, 28 if NM's used garde II's.

Best regards

Capt Seph
Cpt Tirel
Institute For Continuous Glory
#58 - 2013-08-16 07:09:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Cpt Tirel
Capt Sephiroth wrote:
So let me get this straight, you will rather have your vindi's to waste webs and dps to kill the frigates instead of having assign your light drones to a drone bunny and have him kill them? hmmm...

And in those few places where geddons switch to light drones and give them to drone bunnies NM would have clear dps advantage.

You do realize that when those vindi's switch their webs you will not be having that many hits cause of your poor tracking and your drones would be even worse...

A NM with 4 imp navy heat sinks, a burst aerator II with 6% implants has 1379 dps with all skills on 5... So yeah a NM can have that much dps...

Aw my if thats the fit you use and compare to NM then not only does NM have better range but double the tracking...

So you do not think that a ship that has much better tracking, has a 65+20 compared to 56+15km or in your case 53+14km (forgot to mention that I used t2 tracking computers while on geddon I used faction TE's), does fire 1 sec slower but has a 1.8k higher volley with conflag and 1.1k higher volley with scorch and can target further, is better than your geddon?

And in subjective opinion looks more bad ass with those spikes and all compared to geddon who looks like a giant dildo...

The only reason why you are emphasizing that geddon is better is cause of the ability to field a full flight of UNBONUSED sentry drones whose dps is not even close to that paper dps that eft, pyfa and other fitting programs show... And even if you could bring that paper dps to Eve the difference at tower bashing would be 49 dps win for geddon, and thats with NM's using hammerheads, 28 if NM's used garde II's.

Best regards

Capt Seph


Using a T2 damage rig on a NM is stupid because you wont have calibration to fully rig the ship. A T2 energy turret cap usage rig and two T2 resist rigs will help you much more than the slight increase in dps.

Sentry drones is indeed the only advantage the NG has, and i dont think its a small one. Your claims that they arent are just wrong, mediums are pretty bad compared to them, they dont take up 75 more drone bandwidth than meds for nothing.
Capt Sephiroth
#59 - 2013-08-16 07:21:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Capt Sephiroth
You do not have to fit a pulse NM with a T2 energy turret cap when you are more stable than a geddon plus you have 2 utility high slots to fit 2 vampires or 2 energy transfers, and 2x T2 resist rigs when it has more than enough medium slots to fit 2 inv fields with a em ward field as well, has enough shields from start so that when you fit a t2 rate of fire rig and a t1 core defense extender you get more than enough tank for incursions, better shield resists then a geddon tough it has 2k less shield meat but at incursions resists trump the meat. And that 3rd rig slot can remain open, there is no law that states that all your rigs have to be filled.

You will not be sending medium drones to kill frigs either way, you will be using light drones for that and medium drones for tower bashing... The same way you will not be using sentry drones to kill frigates, and I hope to god you will not be ordering vindi's to waste webs and dps to kill frigs as well...

Best regards

Capt Seph

P.S. Aw and another thing I have noticed is that you said that pulse ships have a range of 70km which where most rats are, you do realize that you are talking about a 53km optimal and 17km falloff in that case and that beam weapons in general are bad in falloff so that any sniping ship will outperform you at those ranges.
Cpt Tirel
Institute For Continuous Glory
#60 - 2013-08-16 13:32:37 UTC
I would use the cap rig over the damage rig, vampires can not always give you cap, and having a cap buddy limits your movement giving you less dps with pulses. NM's are not more stable than the NG in fact they are roughly the same when it comes to cap usage.

Yea you will be using the medium drones for tower bashing, and while the NM has its light drones on the drone bunny a NG has its sentries out putting more dps on the Sansha battleships giving it more damage done overall.

I know snipers will outperform a pulse boat at long ranges, of course, but what im saying is i think the potential dps increase outweighs it