These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Market Discussions

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123Next page
 

How to deal with market bots
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
HeXxploiT
Doomheim
#21 - 2013-08-08 21:49:36 UTC  |  Edited by: HeXxploiT
Vincent Athena wrote:
HeXxploiT wrote:
........

I wonder why an honest market maker who does his due diligence would covertly defend bots on an eve forum?

Does anybody know?

Hmmmm...

BTW one of the most effective ways we can deal with these bots is by reporting them to CCP.
Funny enough I neglected to mention that in my first post.

Because honest players do not like being called bots just because they have a play style that looks like a bot to a paranoid observer.


Are you saying people are offended? I call bull. I'm a machine. I can understand if someone calls me a bot. In fact I take it as a compliment. But then you won't catch me falling victim to any of the above listed tactics either because I am not a bot. Yet I use these tactics on a daily basis to drive out the vermin and dominate all posers who dare to attempt faking their way into greatness.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#22 - 2013-08-08 22:03:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
Yes, people are offended. Because they take the fact that they agreed to the EULA seriously, and having some one accuse them of breaking it, when they in fact did not, is offensive.

Its not that they are being accused of using a bot, but that they are being accused of breaking their word.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#23 - 2013-08-08 22:16:47 UTC
I agree with Vincent...

Its fun to play "update within 5s of thisguy every time" or "Let me drip my stuff onto the market so everytime you update, I put an identical stack just above within a few seconds", and to some degree its kinda fun when they then show up on the forums going "OMG BOT!", and when people then resort to the "mindless drones" accusations is also fun, but....people are not breaking the EULA, and to be accused of that is something else entirely.

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#24 - 2013-08-08 22:23:39 UTC
Unless you plan to find out what type of bots they are (and what are the limits to their automation so you can exploit it for profit), you might as well operate as if no market bot exists (handling them exactly the same way you would handle a bored actual person trader).

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
HeXxploiT
Doomheim
#25 - 2013-08-08 23:57:56 UTC  |  Edited by: HeXxploiT
Akita T wrote:
Unless you plan to find out what type of bots they are (and what are the limits to their automation so you can exploit it for profit), you might as well operate as if no market bot exists (handling them exactly the same way you would handle a bored actual person trader).


As someone who is experienced in dealing with market bots I say that is terrible advice.
I would end up hurting my wallet greatly if I used these tactics on active pilots. Tactics which have been honed for bots and have proven success.
The whole reason that they are effective is because a live pilot is not at the helm making the orders and therefor the orders are at the whim of the software programs limitations.
If in fact they were present during much of these operations they could make a load of cash off of my risks.

When I initially began testing the waters with these tactics it was risky and scary however once you've had your feelers out there for a bit you begin to feel comfortable and know when you are dealing with a bot and when you are not.

Oh and btw I would like to sincerely apologize to any pilot who is gushing tears and heartbroken because of my claim that market bots do exist.
I understand that it is a divisive topic and has the potential of splitting the entire human race.
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#26 - 2013-08-09 03:04:42 UTC
Woot another bot thread.. Its been a while..

Wonder if there will ever be one of these with some proper proof and relevant research information..

Also there is at least one way to reduce any alleged bot influence.. trade wider..
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#27 - 2013-08-09 03:07:17 UTC
HeXxploiT wrote:


Oh and btw I would like to sincerely apologize to any pilot who is gushing tears and heartbroken because of my claim that market bots do exist.
I understand that it is a divisive topic and has the potential of splitting the entire human race.



Its ok, I would like to extend my apologies equally to anyone who believes anyone has said that there are no market bots, it must be as confusing reading as it is competing in market pvp. Big smile

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

HeXxploiT
Doomheim
#28 - 2013-08-09 03:38:00 UTC
Rhivre wrote:
HeXxploiT wrote:


Oh and btw I would like to sincerely apologize to any pilot who is gushing tears and heartbroken because of my claim that market bots do exist.
I understand that it is a divisive topic and has the potential of splitting the entire human race.



Its ok, I would like to extend my apologies equally to anyone who believes anyone has said that there are no market bots, it must be as confusing reading as it is competing in market pvp. Big smile


In case you did not read the post immediately before yours i'll repost it for you.

Caleb Ayrania wrote:
Woot another bot thread.. Its been a while..

Wonder if there will ever be one of these with some proper proof and relevant research information..

Also there is at least one way to reduce any alleged bot influence.. trade wider..





All kinds of denials going on here on many different levels. Not that anyone is convinced...Lol...

Anyway...the thread topic IS how to deal with these bots so let's continue to work together and keep it on task. Thank you. Big smile
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#29 - 2013-08-09 07:23:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
HeXxploiT wrote:
Akita T wrote:
Unless you plan to find out what type of bots they are (and what are the limits to their automation so you can exploit it for profit), you might as well operate as if no market bot exists (handling them exactly the same way you would handle a bored actual person trader).

As someone who is experienced in dealing with market bots I say that is terrible advice. I would end up hurting my wallet greatly if I used these tactics on active pilots. Tactics which have been honed for bots and have proven success.
The whole reason that they are effective is because a live pilot is not at the helm making the orders and therefor the orders are at the whim of the software programs limitations.[...]

Didn't we actually say the same thing? Highlighted the part that says more or less what you just said, yet you still phrased as if you disagreed.

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
HeXxploiT
Doomheim
#30 - 2013-08-09 19:51:26 UTC
Akita T wrote:
HeXxploiT wrote:
Akita T wrote:
Unless you plan to find out what type of bots they are (and what are the limits to their automation so you can exploit it for profit), you might as well operate as if no market bot exists (handling them exactly the same way you would handle a bored actual person trader).

As someone who is experienced in dealing with market bots I say that is terrible advice. I would end up hurting my wallet greatly if I used these tactics on active pilots. Tactics which have been honed for bots and have proven success.
The whole reason that they are effective is because a live pilot is not at the helm making the orders and therefor the orders are at the whim of the software programs limitations.[...]

Didn't we actually say the same thing? Highlighted the part that says more or less what you just said, yet you still phrased as if you disagreed.


I guess I misread. Yes if one is not positive it's much wiser to assume it's a person.
But then I always go into every market assuming I'm up against people not bots. I know market people can be tenacious because I myself am.
Sorry I suppose was a little hasty & defense because of all the "oh how do you know it's a bot!?" stuff.
Zaxix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#31 - 2013-08-09 20:28:07 UTC
What OP needs to clarify is WHO bought and sold the items at a loss. If it's the same person, then obviously that person is either incredibly stupid or it's a bot. If it's not the same person, then its not a bot (or its impossible to prove), it's just people dumping for whatever they can get. Mystery solved. Also, it's just basic market warrior action. Buy up the way underpriced items and relist. I feed that cycle intentionally when I'm just unloading stuff (as opposed to actively trading). Assuming there's a wide buy/sell gap, I list at 10% or more below the current sell price specifically so people like OP buy them up quickly.

So, was it the same person or not, OP?

Bokononist

 
HeXxploiT
Doomheim
#32 - 2013-08-09 21:28:15 UTC  |  Edited by: HeXxploiT
Zaxix wrote:
What OP needs to clarify is WHO bought and sold the items at a loss. If it's the same person, then obviously that person is either incredibly stupid or it's a bot. If it's not the same person, then its not a bot (or its impossible to prove), it's just people dumping for whatever they can get. Mystery solved. Also, it's just basic market warrior action. Buy up the way underpriced items and relist. I feed that cycle intentionally when I'm just unloading stuff (as opposed to actively trading). Assuming there's a wide buy/sell gap, I list at 10% or more below the current sell price specifically so people like OP buy them up quickly.

So, was it the same person or not, OP?


Selling isn't usually an issue. It's the buying where it gets tricky. If i buy up all the items of a certain type on the market, then raise buy order prices up to the level I just bought out the market at and proceed to sell all the ships I just bought to the recently updated buy order prices for virtually the same price all in the span of 25 minutes to the same character...isn't it rather obvious what's going on here?...lol

I don't need to prove it's a bot all I need to know is that it acts like one and therefor I can harm its wallet.
Umar Umarhabib
Doomheim
#33 - 2013-08-10 16:04:37 UTC
This isn't the real stock market. Not as many bots as you may think, just people with no lives =P
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#34 - 2013-08-10 16:16:32 UTC
HeXxploiT wrote:
Zaxix wrote:
What OP needs to clarify is WHO bought and sold the items at a loss. If it's the same person, then obviously that person is either incredibly stupid or it's a bot. If it's not the same person, then its not a bot (or its impossible to prove), it's just people dumping for whatever they can get. Mystery solved. Also, it's just basic market warrior action. Buy up the way underpriced items and relist. I feed that cycle intentionally when I'm just unloading stuff (as opposed to actively trading). Assuming there's a wide buy/sell gap, I list at 10% or more below the current sell price specifically so people like OP buy them up quickly.

So, was it the same person or not, OP?


Selling isn't usually an issue. It's the buying where it gets tricky. If i buy up all the items of a certain type on the market, then raise buy order prices up to the level I just bought out the market at and proceed to sell all the ships I just bought to the recently updated buy order prices for virtually the same price all in the span of 25 minutes to the same character...isn't it rather obvious what's going on here?...lol

I don't need to prove it's a bot all I need to know is that it acts like one and therefor I can harm its wallet.



it could be a bot, or it could be someone doing like I am in this screenie, but with buy orders.
Bored in Jita

(Yes, you do this with very competitive buy orders, sit there on voice chatting to people, or with chat open, just spamming the magnifying glass on "modify order" to instantly update)

Although, I am not sure about the wallet harm, you have bought out all the items, so the sell price is now higher, and you are selling the items to buy orders at the same price, so they can relist on the market at a higher price :)

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

HeXxploiT
Doomheim
#35 - 2013-08-10 18:04:38 UTC  |  Edited by: HeXxploiT
Rhivre wrote:
HeXxploiT wrote:
Zaxix wrote:
What OP needs to clarify is WHO bought and sold the items at a loss. If it's the same person, then obviously that person is either incredibly stupid or it's a bot. If it's not the same person, then its not a bot (or its impossible to prove), it's just people dumping for whatever they can get. Mystery solved. Also, it's just basic market warrior action. Buy up the way underpriced items and relist. I feed that cycle intentionally when I'm just unloading stuff (as opposed to actively trading). Assuming there's a wide buy/sell gap, I list at 10% or more below the current sell price specifically so people like OP buy them up quickly.

So, was it the same person or not, OP?


Selling isn't usually an issue. It's the buying where it gets tricky. If i buy up all the items of a certain type on the market, then raise buy order prices up to the level I just bought out the market at and proceed to sell all the ships I just bought to the recently updated buy order prices for virtually the same price all in the span of 25 minutes to the same character...isn't it rather obvious what's going on here?...lol

I don't need to prove it's a bot all I need to know is that it acts like one and therefor I can harm its wallet.



it could be a bot, or it could be someone doing like I am in this screenie, but with buy orders.
Bored in Jita

(Yes, you do this with very competitive buy orders, sit there on voice chatting to people, or with chat open, just spamming the magnifying glass on "modify order" to instantly update)

Although, I am not sure about the wallet harm, you have bought out all the items, so the sell price is now higher, and you are selling the items to buy orders at the same price, so they can relist on the market at a higher price :)


Sure they may be able to sell the items at a higher price but who cares.
Still you have used up isk in their wallet which can have varying degrees of effect and in some cases you will have made a profit off of them. That's the important issue. Anyway it will take them longer to sell the items now that they must sell higher in order to not take a loss and if you happen to pick up some more of the same items at a lower cost you can comfortably undercut them with a smile.
Botters tend to put much tighter restrictions on their sell orders than their buy orders.

I should state also that I don't really take the forge into consideration on this topic. Most of these strategies are extremely effective when you're dealing with ONE bot but multiple bots...forget about it.
Who in their right mind would want to compete with bots in jita unless you're going to use a bot yourself.
No thanks.
Alex Grison
Grison Universal
#36 - 2013-08-11 21:09:58 UTC
I dont think any of them are actually market bots.

In order for you to "find out" if someone is a market bot you need to do things that would make you look like a market bot.

Everyone gets into this crazy LSD slunk-hole adventure cycle of paranoia and watching, and before you know it we realize that we are all market bots all along, put in place by the transkanklemorph empire to ensure that all of our brains are all nice and soft so that there is no resistance when they insert the return tubes.

yes
Carrelle Rouppon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2013-08-13 09:55:48 UTC
It's amusing, we all know market bots exist, yet the whole community has turned on the OP.

Without operations like mine it would be impossible for certain Alliances to conduct a respectable war. There are three basic types of arms deal: white, being legal, black, being illegal, and my personal favorite, gray.

Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#38 - 2013-08-13 10:33:31 UTC
Show me in the thread where anyone said bots d not exist :)

The OP has an insistence that bots are causing problems, no one has said there are no bots, we are mostly just saying that what can appear to be a bot is not always that.

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Zaxix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#39 - 2013-08-13 15:00:40 UTC
Carrelle Rouppon wrote:
It's amusing, we all know market bots exist, yet the whole community has turned on the OP.


What drew my attention was that OP said it was a nullsec trader bot. Odd place for a market bot to operate.

Bokononist

 
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#40 - 2013-08-13 15:03:03 UTC
Just want to clarify a couple of points.

1. Nobody said bots don't exist, people are simply saying they are not as widespread as you make out.
2. Generally market bots (for all games not just EVE) are built with threshholds to prevent market manipulation. If you suddenly drop a price by 30k, and the other order follows, then that's more likely to be a player than a bot.
3. If you are so sure your are an experienced anti-bot market trader, why are you complaining about them? Surely you are making a mint off of them right?
4. Most of us when trading have multiple chars all logged in at the same time and are manipulating thousands of orders. The fact that we don't talk and work in a way that seems to conform to a set of rules is simply because the fastest way to do trading is to STFU, and to use spreadsheets to work out buy/sell gaps, speed of stock movement and the prices to ensure the fastest move at the best price.
5. I quite often mess around with the prices of things purely to wind people like you up. I usually try to make sure my profit hits 0 for a couple of items I know are being shifted by others just to make them sad. I'm probably not the only one.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Previous page123Next page