Wormholes

Pope Urban....when you say no one intended or planned for people to live within and build caps inside wormholes what you're saying is that CCP put sand in the sandbox. They set up the rules of w-space, threw the gates open and said "have at it".

Well, when you let people loose in a sandbox, you get emergent gameplay.

W-space emergent gameplay it has gone in all manner of directions, some of them since classed as exploits (c.f. the magnetar exploit) which exposed weaknesses in the play testing, others resulting in amazing feats of game engineering. Some are profound (like Winthrop says, giant C1 lab and factory systems with 40 large Caldari towers polishing BPO's for nullsec overlords) others profane (like the 200 small warp bubble space **** we left some guys), but all equally as valid a territorial creation and investment as dullsec empire building.

Some of the feats of effort (like 250-a-side blob fights) still make me amazed at what w-space people have achieved despite the barriers to movement, logistics, congregation and intelligence (in-game or out-of-game).

Your suggestion of making w-space uninhabitable flies in the face of years of w-space engineering, theorycrafting, gaming of the rules, and most importantly community building.

If the w-space community cannot live in w-space, it will dissipate and, no idle threat, quite a few people will un-sub because what holds them together are true bonds of friendship and camaraderie. This is the most valuable part of w-space, to me; disparate geeks getting along on cooperative goals, putting up with each other's personalities and idiocies for months and years at a time, and building a functioning culture separate and separated from the other cliques in EVE.

Framing the debate about w-space as ISK/hr or inhabitability is just fruitless idiocy. People in my corp run incursions for ISK and come to w-space to pew. Others scam and extort and station trade. I trade and lug crap from Jita to far-flung places and make plenty of ISK so I can go live in a wormhole and blow other people's ships up and not have to bother with anything more challenging PVE wise than killing a sleeper if aggros me mid-gank.

So, what's wrong with w-space, if the community and the clique and the culture is the objective? Nullsec ethics, nullsec power creep, nullsec politics and highsec Q.Q is what's wrong with w-space.

I agree that people can become too entrenched in farmville C5's and C6's, generally with the effect systems (Pulsars, etc) and these can be gamed, exploited and twisted into ridiculousness. That's why I don't agree with Black Holes being made into another nett-benefit system where some configuration of bonuses creates, eg, easy-blap farms or the like.

But is it a problem that corps and alliances are living in C5/6 space in Pulsars, doing ridiculous things? No. Their invulnerability is ONLY because of the w-bro code and the emergent gameplay which allows people to assemble the blues-list blobs to defend these people when they call. Frustrating for those coveting the lucrative farms, but not a mechanical issue - a social inability to isolate the entrenched rent-takers and mobilise people to your ideological need to be the guys in the C5 Magnetar doing the farming instead of the incumbents.

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As far as lack of goodfites? people need to just get over podkilling their enemies. Add that to the w-bro code and people will bring daredevil-navitas gangs to WR fights instead of more and more bloody Prot+Guard la-la yawnfest, etc.

After all, if you are just after a good fight, and you believe you are better than dullsec farmers, this shouldn't be too hard.

Of course, I'd still be down for podding PI alts and daytrippers and fools you catch in sites.

Have you considered that perhaps it is you that should be rebuffed? You don't get to the really good ideas without working through a lot of really abstract concepts. Even if they aren't worth pursuing, they could spark better ideas for iterations that ARE worthwhile. People like you impede the creative process by foolishly believing they are helping anyone by attempting to be some kind of "creative filter" that no one asked for or needs. The OP will do that with or without your derisive comments by taking the more polished suggestions from this thread up the ladder.

You are doing more harm than the people you're belittling. Stop it.

I think WH Industry could need a little love also. The only thing which can be produced inside WH-Space without leaving it, are T3 Cruisers. All other things need to be imported from K-Space.

Hauling things into WH´s is a great mess, as industrial do not have much cargo and the orca needs too much mass. A small sized Freighter with about 120.000 m3 Cargo and about 40Mill. kg Mass would be nice to make logistics a little bit easier. This Freighter wouldnt affect K-Space as Orca and Freighters still would have more Cargo and Mass doesn´t matter there.

Changing Ore Sites back to Gravimetrics is not needed, but either CCP should do this or maybe bring back huge rocks to WH Ore Anomalies. The Risk/Reward relation by mining ore in WH-Space is much worse than in K-Space (except Low Sec). This should be adjusted, as much of the Ore isn´t mined in WH´s at the moment.

At least I would like to produce new Stuff which shouldn´t have much impact on new Edens economy. I would like to produce some Stuff for Dust Soldiers as they are originally born in the Wormholes. Maybe implement some special WH Moongoo, like we already have other Gas Types than K-Space. With that and the other WH Materials we should be able to produce Implants, Hardwirings, Weapons, Combat Suits or Vehicles for Dust Soldiers. Add a special WH Component Array which can only be anchored in Wh´s. We would still need our T2 Stuff imported from K-Space but we would also have a different income than only from T3 Cruisers.

It would be helpful if the access levels for CHA really could be accessed by alliance. This would basically mean fixing the bug that currently allows one to set view/take access to Alliance on a CHA, but doesn't actually allow alliance access. Hangar tab access should be able to be set on a per-CHA basis, or default to the regular corporation setup (the one used in stations).


This would improve the ability of alliances to live out of a POS without needing redundant CHAs for multiple corporations.

I would like to say huge thank you for everyone who posted feedback so far. I made me over think a huge deal about how wspace is structured at the moment. I have also received a lot of good ideas i have never ever seen before.

I would like to encourage everyone to keep posting in this thread. Originally I have thought to forward feedback to CCP quite fast but I will wait for one more week to get even more ideas.

Please keep the thread structured and I will be happy to forward you ideas.

^this is nonsense. random connections are random, regardless of activity level.
the reason you come across more empty systems with a lot of connections is that there is no one using (ie: activating and/or closing) them.

There are possibly some who say this, but not me.

There needs to be something to encourage daytrippers (who provide PVP) and itinerant small POS farmer-campers (who also encourage PVP; see for instance what Ashimat is doing right now).

The reasons you don't live permanently in w-space are the reasons which need to be discussed, not pooh-poohed. Is it the time sink required to do anything? is it the annoying scanner interface? Is it, perhaps, even the current culture of w-space?

I for one know how astoundingly boring it is to invest days sieging and camping some idiots or noobs, and then find out there's some giant e-honour EVE-Uni creche wormhole you've stumbled upon and getting QQ'd at on the forums because you and your boys went and prodded around.

Then the same people complain they can't get goodfites.




As you say, if the whole idea is to make w-space more easy, then so be it. Standardise wormhole mass limits, simplify the collapsing, make more ships mass/cargo efficient for logistics in wormholes, etc.

However, my point stands; whatever CCP thought they created in Apocrypha has been metastasised into what it is now. There's no going back. As you say, the decision has to be to let wormholes stay as they are; often frustrating time sinks with quirky and kludgy half-baked mechanics, or to work on making them easier, so that more people will live and visit and set up a small POS for a week to make some money.

The thing is, if you mouseover the wormhole forum is says that wormholes are places where teamwork is required. You may not like or enjoy the wormhole culture or be part of a w-bro alliance or corp, but it seems that CCP has at least been advertising w-space as a team-based arena.

You can live here solo (c.f. Ashimat, others) but it is not easy, and requires a shed load of alts.

I like that it isn't a timer shown to people right in front of them, many people have died simply from panicking and jumping back and i hope it would stay that way. WH's should not be safe.

I agree that the current mechanics for spawning sites are awkward, but this would have to be done carefully. Ore sites (if ever made worthwhile) would need a separate set of timers given how ridiculously massive the belts are. Ranging from 2-13mil m3 total ore volume, it takes a dedicated group of miners spending many hours each day the site is up to have any hopes of clearing a belt. Every other site can be completed in <30mins with a decent group.

hehe and the bizarre thing is that even with all the PI material possible in wormholes, none of it can be used to build stuff in wormholes (except for fuel blocks or repair paste), all of it has to get hauled to highsec to build structures, etc.