Skill Discussions

The margin trading skill is a good idea but ONLY if implemented correctly. Everyone knows of the margin trading scam, where you list items way overpriced for SALE and, in the same station, make a buy order for the same items while requiring a minimum quantity that no one can obtain, causing someone to buy all of them they can at the heightened price.

It is one thing to get scammed by not reading a contract thoroughly or believing what someone says without checking it; >HOWEVER< when you condone scamming by allowing them to promise things OFFICIALLY and cause the trade to fail, you're KILLING THE SYSTEM. NO ONE WANTS TO DO ANY TRADE IN THE GAME BECAUSE THEY CANT TRUST THE GAME; trade in the game would be far much better and there would be less scammers IF you would make the margin EXPLOIT not work anymore.
Margin trading scams are not the same circumstances as the other WARRANTED scams in eve. You allow your system to LIE to US on these scammers behalf; when you play eve, you expect everything that is OFFICIAL to be TRUTH. If a contract says I will pay 1.2 billion for 1 plex, and not just me misreading it as 1.2 million, I expect to have to pay 1.2 billion for one plex by accepting it, whether I like it or not, Because it was MY FAULT; the Eve system in front of me told me the truth but I ignored it.

HOWEVER, when the SYSTEM says it will buy 100 protoype energized adaptive membranes for 900k each, I expect for it to be true BECAUSE I READ it correctly and did everything within my power to avoid a scam.

When someone doesnt have the cash for the buy orders they have open, it should FINE them and, only if the case, cause them to go into the negative and then keep them from being able to perform ANY transactions in their wallet, except receive money or sell things using "immediate" until their account is positive again. They can achieve a positive balance in their account again by either doing missions, transferring isk from another alt, or, as said, selling assets to "immediate" sell orders.

When the owner of a buy order doesnt have enough funds to finish the quantity being sold to the buy order, move on to the next immediate buy order that is legitimate, closing out the illegitimate buy orders down the line until one that can be filled is found. IF there are no legitimate buy orders, make the system buy it from the seller at the fair market price (the price shown on the tooltip when you hover over items in hangar), close the buy order afterwards, of course, and, again, FINE the buy order's owner 10%, or whatever fee you choose, of the defaulted ammount; if i have a buy order for 1000 isk and I only have 100isk, fine me 10% of the remaining 900 isk I dont have, leaving me with 10 isk and 0 gained items.

Also, even though the buy order got closed for default, make it take up that available market order for the REMAINDER of the duration. If my 1000 isk buy order, the one i got fined 10% of 900 on, was originally 90 days duration, make me wait out that 90 days duration before being able to use that unavailable market order again. This will keep people from recreating margin scams and EXTREMELY deter them from doing it again.

Again, soley, this fine being applied to the inadequate buy order's owner could be making them go in the negative. When an account goes into the negative, which is ONLY possible through fines (preventing an infinite flow of money), make them unable to list any other trade orders UNTIL they get their account back in the positive.

A positive account balance could be achieved again by mission running, incursioning, or selling things IMMEDIATELY (the immediate check box in sell order window). This would encourage people to not scam, show them how to make money otherwise, and improve the economy in the game.THey should also be refused use of cyno's, injection of new skills, and, of course, be unable to upgrade their medic clone on death, as they cant afford it. This will make people think twice about making buy orders they cant fill.

If nothing else, make it where people can Check the legitimacy of buy orders by trying to fill them with a quantity of ONE of the item; if its unable to be filled for at least HALF of the quantity, make the system close it before our very eyes and STILL FINE the seller, while still occupying that available market order for the remainder of the original duration.

The reason for margin trading is for procurement, to escrow in various things while only desiring the ones to succeed that are actually trading and profitable. Margin trading IS needed in eve but ONLY with the limitations outlined above.

If you dont fix the margin trading system to where we can trust being able to sell the quantity shown, everyone will keep scamming, the market will stay a joke (where very few things are actually traded), and people will keep mining from scratch to sell the end product, INSTEAD Of trading ore and materials between each other to make the end product.

. Im not against having scammers in the game but the main reason there are so many scammers is because there's no honest way for them to make isk, other than incursions, making Everything from SCRATCH, or running missions.

Also, you could make the margin trading skill take two months to get to lvl 5 and have its prerequisites higher, taking three months to get to lvl 1 (counting the prerequisites); people with negative accounts will not want to create a new one and train it again, including trade skills, but will instead want to resolve their negative account and STOP making illegal buy orders.

you cant lose money afaik with the margin trading. you keep your items you was trying to sell to start with. its just a pain in the ass to move your freighter to a fake buy order that shouldnt have been allowed in the first place.

im just trying to make people be held accountable for writing checks they cant cash. Make a returned check fee of like 10% or something. Make accounts go negative and their wallets be locked until its positive again. Make it where cynos cant be used on negative accounts and new skills cant be injected, only current ones trained.

Also, we was already getting paint jobs on ships you idiot; that was announced a year ago and now you're making another idea post about the same thing?

yeah i can see that not being exploited at all, set a buy order for 1 trillion isk or 100 bill or something stupid high, get an alt to conduct that transaction, cancel sub on the account with negative wallet and poof you just made isk out of thin air


ok now that i got an better understanding from what your getting at, but yeah its a pain, and an annoyance but at least its better then the idea you suggested (which was creating isk out of nowhere)

How exactly will you prevent buying own orders with alts, how should game differentiate characters to put a definite "alt" tag on someone?

What is a fair price? What is a fair market?


You are soooooooooooo wrong here. 2 months are nothing when you can earn trillions with just 1 market operation. Also: why punish older players with extra SP?

Wouldn't it be simpler to make it similar to the T3 skills, every time a margin order fails the character loses one level of margin trading skill, failure of 5 market orders causes the removal of the skill from your Training Queue. Heck you want to be really vindictive then make it after the skill is removed 'Remedial Margin Trading' (New skill) must be trained and make it a 16X skill.

You didn't think this through.




This would be an ISK faucet worse than insurance and rat bounties put together. No.



Right. Most people use margin trading to create bids that will be covered by income they expect to have before the bid is called. Why should I have all of my orders cancelled (and waste my broker fees) if my liquidity drops below a certain point? I haven't defaulted yet, and expect that my ongoing cashflow (from asks) will, statistically speaking, cover my bids before they're called. This is perfectly legitimate. If I screw this up (which, in the long term is bound to happen from time to time) and don't have enough cash on hand to cover a bid, I already lose all my brokerage (which, even with decent standing and a skill at 5 is still a non-trivial amount on a large bid).

You're obviously not a trader. You got scammed once, now you know to look out for it. I fail to see why I should suffer because you got greedy.

I think losing 1 level of margin trading when you default is actually a very good idea.

It would be like losing the credit rating in real life.

The time to retrain 1 level would then be the same as rebuilding your credit rating.

Equivalents of margin trading exist in the real world, that's why you have companies that can't pay for what they bought.
Market is functioning properly, you are just too dumb to see the scams that are "hidden".

As I see It this can be solved by making any escrow to be dependently shared among buy orders.

Escrow rules:

• A buy order can never be set unless the resulting total amount in escrow covers its value fully.
• When total escrow is going below the value of a buy order your account(wallet) is charged to cover it.
• Failing to cover the attempted charge any buy order which is not covered by total escrow will be immediately removed the very moment this is true.

One important result from this is, the highest buy order will always be the limiting factor, thus you will only engage in business on a level you can actually afford to do business in.


Minimum buy rules:

• Minimum buy amount can never be higher than 10% of the amount sold currently within a station.
• Minimum buy amount will always be adjusted(per sale) by automation, between 1 and the preferred amount only(does not change anything in the buy order, just allows a bypass when sales are low).
• In multi station wide buy orders the minimum buy amount is always based on the individual stations.

The highest traffic hubs will allow the highest minimum amounts whilst abandoned stations will rarely allow minimum buy amounts above 1, this will also boost localized trading more as moguls will have a hard time servicing super-wide buy orders.

Seems to me only greedy folk fall for margin trading scams....all grifts are based on the mark's greed.