Skill Discussions

.... do yourself a favor and check out Castle Crashers on 360 - Lvl40 in a week tops. Boom.

My question to all the veteran players is:

If a 50% reduction of learning all skills would result in an online population of several 100,000 vs 40,000 to 50,000 would it result in a better level of play in the game?

I'm not a veteran but I think crowded regions would be even more crowded and empty regions would still be empty.

Also, people who quite Eve over the training times would quit it anyway. Maybe a bit later.

If you'd done it from the start, I don't think it would make a huge difference one way or another. It would be the accepted norm and people who like the game would play the game as normal and people who don't wouldn't. There might be more early adopters, but at the same time the game might not have as much longevity, since people would hit the training cap in all the areas they care, so they might also quit sooner. Having more people try out the game longer also doesn't mean you keep them. Most of the people you're trying to attract with such change aren't the type to stick with any game for long. They're the MMO locust swarm who try a game in millions and a few months later are nowhere to be seen, since the next thing is about the be released.

The larger problem is though, that you can't do it now without causing problems and people who don't want to play the game still wouldn't. That makes it a lose/lose situation for CCP. For a person who doesn't care for the game the training speeds aren't the real problem. It's the game itself and that wouldn't be changing. Many older players would naturally be pissed about it and leave the game in protest, because CCP would be catering to an outside demographic and devaluing their paying playerbase's achievements to do it. Treating the people who pay your wage now as trash, while going after a potential customerbase, that might never even materialize, is not a sound business practice.

I blame Gary Gygax for this issue. Seriously. I've played tabletop rpgs for 30 years now, and over 90% of those games are based on a class/level structure that has been transcribed onto their internet counterparts. As gamers it's been imprinted into our psyches to think in these terms automatically. We expect a linear progression, a journey to the top with little lateral movement except limited side branching as we reach the endgame. EVE turns this notion on it's side. I've been fortunate to have been involved in a few games that didn't follow this pattern, IE: Shadowrun, Amber, the WoD games, and that's actually been somewhat helpful for me in adapting to EVE.

As a new player EVE can be quite daunting with all the skills you need to reach different goals. It feels like you're walled in on every side, with a nearly incomprehensible maze of skills you need to train to reach that golden prize on the horizon. This is an illusion reinforced by our preconceptions that have been fostered upon us by all the other games we're played. What you perceive as the wall is in fact the floor. You stand upon a road that extends in every direction, with each step opening up new possibilities and opportunities. This is the root of what the sandbox means.

Instead of focusing on how long it's going to take to reach your destination it's far better to enjoy to the fullest every step of the way there. Set short term and long term goals, test your limits, fail, learn, try again, succeed. I still remember the excitement of finally being able to fit the last launcher on my kestrel, it was awesome. Every time I trained my skills up to the point where I could fly a new ship, or fit a new type of module it was like Christmas all over again. When I finally could afford and fly my first battleship I promptly raced out to try it out... and got it toasted with no insurance nor the money to replace it. I was devastated, but I also wasn't ready either. I broke rule #1. I learned, I came back and tried again... (and that one sank into the swamp too). But the third castle stood!

My point is that EVE is a journey, and you can take whatever path you want, hell you can always take another one if you feel like it. You have as much time as you care to spend on it. Some things take a long time to reach, but that's the case in any journey. Don't be discouraged, it would be a shame to race to the mountaintop without bothering to explore some of the sidepaths on the way up... you might miss something cool.

"Down is where your feet are!" - Orson Scott Card

Lol, you should have been here when there were Learning skills:) Once they were removed, everything brightened up for new players.

nt,

I do this ALL the time. This character is around the 120 million SP mark, flies all T1 subcaps at 5, all T2 weapon specializations at 5 (minus cruise missiles, which only recently became worth spending time training), and most T2 subcaps at level 4. For all that, I rarely log in this character aside from switching skills. I have several other characters that prefer to use instead, all with considerably fewer SP, ranging from 60 something million all the way down to my current favorites, a 5 million SP Minmatar FW character and a 3.8 million SP Gallente FW character.

I haven't read through the entire thread but it seems that you automatically assume that anyone disagreeing with your desire to be given more skills to new players is a veteran with too much "pride" or a veteran who wants to maintain the status quo of power (albeit an entirely imaginary status quo) over new players. While this may be the case for some, I don't believe that represents the majority of "veterans". I also don't believe that more SP for new pilots (and I've got several of those myself) is a good direction for EVE to go.

You haven't been around that long, it sounds like, and you may not believe this, but starting a new character today is far, far, FAR easier than it was at any time in the past. There are no longer any learning skills that simply HAVE to be trained for a month or more in order to not "gimp" all your future skill training. Attributes are no longer set in stone. You can now maximize your SP/hour for your preferred skill plan, and new players start with either two or three remaps right out of character creation to help them maximize their early skill training. Cerebral Accelerators can vastly improve your skill progression for your first month. There are numerous tools now to make your skill plan as efficient as possible. There's a skill queue that allows you to make sure that you always have a skill training without having to set your alarm for 4 am to switch out a skill as I used to routinely do.

EVE is a game that requires an infinite amount of patience when it comes to it's method of "leveling up", compared to the mechanics found in other games. This is not something I'd never like to see changed, even though it would benefit me immensely with my next new character. Just as I'd like to see the skill queue removed, not expanded, though it's presence does benefit me, and I'd like to see attribute remaps removed as well, despite the fact that I've benefited immensely from the ability to maximize my SP/hour over the years.

You can claim that not being able to fly a T2 fit battleship right out of character creation "gimps" a new player. You could claim that not even being able to fly a T2 fit frigate right out of character creation "gimps" a new player. Yet, every one of us "veterans" started at that point at some time, and most started at that point at a time when the skill progression was much slower than what is possible today. You can also claim that SP is a barrier to entry when it comes to competing with other players, but the truth of the matter is is that skill points don't matter as much as most people believe they do. I distinctly recall tackling a Tempest with another corpmate within a couple months of starting to play, us both in Rifters. A new player could do the same today, simply by concentrating on exploiting the target's weaknesses (something that no amount of SP will teach you to do).

Unlike most games where a Level 60 character can absolutely trash a low level character, new pilots in EVE routinely find ways of removing shiny ships from characters with far greater SP, simply because they rely on personal skill and knowledge rather than the mirage that SP is truly important. There's very few things that a new player cannot be competitive at within a very reasonable amount of time by specializing. The difference between my nearly 40 million SP in gunnery skills and a player with 5 million SP in gunnery are rather VERY small, in practice. Yes, there is a difference -- a few percentage points worth of damage here and there -- but nothing that can not be overcome with a good fitting, and solid player skills.

The idea that veterans have some magical unbeatable advantage over lower-SP characters is a fallacy. My own PVP experience in the early days of this character (wardec'd my first corp within a week of creating this character, lose a fight -- but just barely -- to a 2004 character in a T2 ship simply because I fit a tracking disruptor) undermines your argument in my opinion. The success I have with my two current low-skilled pilots undermines the argument that the barrier to play today is different than it was when I started THIS character.

Perhaps it's not that "veterans" who disagree with you are prideful or afraid of losing their (imaginary) power advantage, but that they've been around long enough to see the "big picture" and know that their age really doesn't give them all that great of an advantage over younger players, aside from personal experience and knowledge. Maybe they feel that instead of arguing for a dramatic change to the skill training system you should do what we've all done -- develop your personal skills while your SP accumulates.

Ultimately, the only barrier to entry in EVE is the barrier of entry you set for yourself by believing that you're unable to compete with others.

Wow, wow and wow, I'd like that twice if I could.

That pretty much sums up how I have come to see EVE in a few months of playing - I think you are right in that tabletop RPG's have set the bar in how most PC games have been made as far as skill progression, and I was expecting that from EVE (been playing them since AD&D). But it is not linear, it is mostly all sideways. Now as I train something to the point I want, instead of feeling walled in as far as how far I have to go, there is always a new module I can use that is maybe only a couple of days training away, a new skillbook that is only a couple of days training away, something extra that I can use now that I have just trained a skill, a new pathway that I have just discovered that I did not previously know about. It feels at times like an infinite branching of paths extending out from me, and I am glad I am taking a branching at a time and learning each one, rather than having them all thrown at me and getting lost. I don't want it all now, I want to savour each bit as I get it.

I still enjoy a good old-fashioned romp in Neverwinter (with it's linear progression) now and again, but EVE will call me back every time.

Hm, ship prerequisites might confuse new players. I mean doesnt it show like 9 days to fly battleship. So newbie thinks thats not bad and goes for it. Not realizing that it takes good 2 months and more to properly fly battleship.

You said it yourself, 10 years. How many MMOs have lasted 10 years? Not many. Thats not to say it cant still be better but eve is unique and ccp has done a good job at keeping it that way. This game will teach you patience or it will break you. I hope that part of it never changes. I got sick of games that could be mastered in a long double xp weekend. Than what? grind the same old maps for the next three months! In eve, just when you think you have it figured out and the monotony might kill you, you get hot dropped and loose sov and have to move and loose all you stuff. Its great fun!