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Escort Carriers
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Matthias Thullmann
Dynatron Inc.
#381 - 2013-08-11 04:57:02 UTC
This is not a hisec-lowsec issue, it's an empire space - not empire space issue. Same as with bombs.

It's an issue with canon (empires wouldn't allow it) and as previously mentioned this would break mechanics with invincible ships because your carrier is sitting in a POS and sending it's fighters to lowsec gatecamp. Things like capital repair modules would probably break incursions. Also why are you hell bent on introducing new hulls? CCP has enough to deal with.



- ARGUABLY SUPERIOR SOLUTION -
======================================================================================
Escort carriers in real life provide a tiny mobile HQ, protect larger ships from smaller ones, and are also the size and speed of battlecruisers so they can keep up with the fleet.
Given how much labor CCP can spare for this and given that EvE is at least loosely based on naval ship classes, consider taking what is basically a Command Ship, giving it more tank, and specializing it for drones and support.
It'll be able to dish out dps and tank more than Battleships, rep like a single gimped Logistics cruiser, and to provide maintenance services to very very very very tiny fleets.


- Based on existing Battlecruiser hulls (Drake, Myrm, Harby, Cane).
- 8 utility highs. This is a carrier and deals damage only with drones, not a drone carrying Battleship.
- 25,000 m3 maintenance bay capacity. Yes it can fit in BC hulls, it scales directly down from an Orca. And it's balanced to only hold a cruiser so it won't be OP.
- 125 Mbit/sec bandwidth, 625m3 drone bay. Read bonuses before you freak out.

Racial Battlecruiser skill bonus:
50% bonus to Remote Repair module range and 10% to capacitor need for Remote Repair modules per level.
20% bonus to drone repair amount, hitpoints and damage per level.
^
Since Battlecruiser skill needs to be at V to operate this ship, it gives you the ability of a single Logistics cruiser and forces you far far closer to the battle. A good Logi pilot can outdo this setup so it won't break incursions or be too OP for hisec.
Secondary bonus gives equivalent of 10 drones. This is key, read down to why using 5 normal drones is better than 10 normal drones, or 5 fighters.

Racial Escort Carrier skill bonus:
10% bonus to repair amount of onboard armor/shield repair systems per level.
5% bonus to armor or shield resistances per level. (Gallente/Amarr get armor, Caldari/Rustbucket get shield).
5% bonus to drone damage, signature radius, MWD speed, optimal range and tracking speed per level.
^
Gives you a tank much better than Battleships. Additional drone bonuses bring your flight of Ogre IIs at max skills equivalent dps to several Firbolgs. This is more than enough. Signature radius is bigger so if you field light drones they aren't OP.
Keep in mind that all those numerous drone skills, all those rigs and upgrade modules apply to these drones, which could allow some sentry setups to have really huge DPS.

Role bonus:
- 100% bonus to drone control range.
- Can fit Micro Jump Drives.
- 99% reduction in Warfare Link module CPU need. Can use 3 Warfare Link modules simultaneously.
^
Allows to assign drones to friendlies on grid. MJD keeps it mobile.


Explanation as to why normal drones, and why only five:
1. It gives you the experience of managing fighters of a carrier without breaking your bank, making you train fighter skills, or having to redefine empire space combat from scratch. The price control factor is in the hull itself, not in the drones or modules, which are already widely available in EvE.
2. CCP does not have to model whole new hulls. CCP does not have to model vectors for 5 additional drones. All CCP has to do is change bonuses on an existing hull!!!! That's the genius of it, to test this concept they can put experimental hulls on test server in less than a week and then spend time fine tuning it in game instead of on paper, which is the way it should be.
======================================================================================
- END INJECTION OF IDEAS -

Please make sure your seat and folding trays are in their full upright position.
FleetAdmiralHarper
Kitchen Sink Kapitals
#382 - 2013-08-11 05:15:59 UTC  |  Edited by: FleetAdmiralHarper
Matthias Thullmann wrote:
This is not a hisec-lowsec issue, it's an empire space - not empire space issue. Same as with bombs.

It's an issue with canon (empires wouldn't allow it) and as previously mentioned this would break mechanics with invincible ships because your carrier is sitting in a POS and sending it's fighters to lowsec gatecamp. Things like capital repair modules would probably break incursions. Also why are you hell bent on introducing new hulls? CCP has enough to deal with.



- ARGUABLY SUPERIOR SOLUTION -
======================================================================================
Escort carriers in real life provide a tiny mobile HQ, protect larger ships from smaller ones, and are also the size and speed of battlecruisers so they can keep up with the fleet.
Given how much labor CCP can spare for this and given that EvE is at least loosely based on naval ship classes, consider taking what is basically a Command Ship, giving it more tank, and specializing it for drones and support.
It'll be able to dish out dps and tank more than Battleships, rep like a single gimped Logistics cruiser, and to provide maintenance services to very very very very tiny fleets.


- Based on existing Battlecruiser hulls (Drake, Myrm, Harby, Cane).
- 8 utility highs. This is a carrier and deals damage only with drones, not a drone carrying Battleship.
- 25,000 m3 maintenance bay capacity. Yes it can fit in BC hulls, it scales directly down from an Orca. And it's balanced to only hold a cruiser so it won't be OP.
- 125 Mbit/sec bandwidth, 625m3 drone bay. Read bonuses before you freak out.

Racial Battlecruiser skill bonus:
50% bonus to Remote Repair module range and 10% to capacitor need for Remote Repair modules per level.
20% bonus to drone repair amount, hitpoints and damage per level.
^
Since Battlecruiser skill needs to be at V to operate this ship, it gives you the ability of a single Logistics cruiser and forces you far far closer to the battle. A good Logi pilot can outdo this setup so it won't break incursions or be too OP for hisec.
Secondary bonus gives equivalent of 10 drones. This is key, read down to why using 5 normal drones is better than 10 normal drones, or 5 fighters.

Racial Escort Carrier skill bonus:
10% bonus to repair amount of onboard armor/shield repair systems per level.
5% bonus to armor or shield resistances per level. (Gallente/Amarr get armor, Caldari/Rustbucket get shield).
5% bonus to drone damage, signature radius, MWD speed, optimal range and tracking speed per level.
^
Gives you a tank much better than Battleships. Additional drone bonuses bring your flight of Ogre IIs at max skills equivalent dps to several Firbolgs. This is more than enough. Signature radius is bigger so if you field light drones they aren't OP.
Keep in mind that all those numerous drone skills, all those rigs and upgrade modules apply to these drones, which could allow some sentry setups to have really huge DPS.

Role bonus:
- 100% bonus to drone control range.
- Can fit Micro Jump Drives.
- 99% reduction in Warfare Link module CPU need. Can use 3 Warfare Link modules simultaneously.
^
Allows to assign drones to friendlies on grid. MJD keeps it mobile.


Explanation as to why normal drones, and why only five:
1. It gives you the experience of managing fighters of a carrier without breaking your bank, making you train fighter skills, or having to redefine empire space combat from scratch. The price control factor is in the hull itself, not in the drones or modules, which are already widely available in EvE.
2. CCP does not have to model whole new hulls. CCP does not have to model vectors for 5 additional drones. All CCP has to do is change bonuses on an existing hull!!!! That's the genius of it, to test this concept they can put experimental hulls on test server in less than a week and then spend time fine tuning it in game instead of on paper, which is the way it should be.
======================================================================================
- END INJECTION OF IDEAS -

Please make sure your seat and folding trays are in their full upright position.


your idea certainly is the easy approach, at-least from a programming standpoint. copy,edit,insert....
but you obviously didn't read any of the posts in this thread..
or the updates to the game... you cant assign/deploy fighters from inside a pos shield. you haven't been able to for quite some time..

+ the light/escort carriers fighters WOULDN'T be able to warp..
and their are NO capital rep modules for these, they use large battleship sized modals for remote, and XL for self.

and 90% of the people in this thread DON'T want to reuse hulls for this, we already have crappy drone battleships.. we want a light capital, like an orca or freighter.. but combat oriented.
also if 2 battleships can blow the crap out of you in a few seconds to a minute, with a 500k ehp tank..
your not really a "i win ship"
...
i like 1 thing though, the idea of letting them use micro jump drives. i was thinking about that earlier, but i was like meh.

none the less thanks for the input, and lolz at this "Caldari/Rustbucket get shield" XD


@"Ines Tegator "
you seem to think fighters are more powerful then they really are =P im beginning to see that alot from people...
or they are getting fighter bombers confused with fighters idk.
Narcotic Gryffin
Digital Mercenaries Inc.
#383 - 2013-08-11 05:54:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Narcotic Gryffin
Id agree with the person above me, some people dont read lol. I am noticing a consistant want of a on par sub capital that is sole drone dmg with 10 drones available. Hell if I knew the numbers better maybe fighters but no fighter bombers but seeing as I dont do drones as I dont like the ships that currently use them I'll let the rest of you debate on how strong 5 fighters vs 10 drones would be.

Main point a 10 drone sub carrier I think most of us can agree upon. Maybe focus on a slightly above battlship tank otherwise its just an op battleship and not a subcap

http://www.sortius-is-a-geek.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/history-channel-hd-aliens-thumb.jpg
Matthias Thullmann
Dynatron Inc.
#384 - 2013-08-11 06:37:03 UTC
FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:
like an orca or freighter

Those two are very different... but I'll assume you want something like an Orca, that can be built in empire stations.... In which case, this ship concept is exactly what you want.
I basically took an Orca, weaponized it, and put it in a random hull. It doesn't matter that it uses a BC hull, that's so far beside the point that you can't even scan for it.

This is not a drone battleship. This is not even a drone battlecruiser. It's a pure carrier in every sense. Don't get hung up on looks or the base hull.
Yes it's technically in the BC class, but Legion is technically in the cruiser class too... Technicalities like that don't matter in the long run.

I'm against fighters because of their special mechanics not because of their damage output. What you're suggesting isn't a fighter per se, it's a heavier heavy drone. And the same exact thing can be simulated by changing a few values on a ship instead of going through development hell. There's no real in game difference between your heavier heavy drones and my bonused heavy drones, so CCP can use this concept to test if your concept is ok, and then introduce it later.

Let's basically try to keep the number of new concepts down, because that's going to increase the chance CCP listens to us.

At least in the short term, CCP isn't going to touch this with a 90 foot pole unless it's made as simple as possible. The hull choice doesn't have to be permanent, CCP can add or change it later like they do with most other ships. But the concept has to be introduced first, and it will never get over the development hump if you guys keep trying to argue over the final variant before the initial ship is even introduced.
Shade Alidiana
PROSPERO Corporation
#385 - 2013-08-12 13:01:00 UTC
Suddenly, I see such topic again. Yes, I like the concept. Combat orca and everything. It can be made not-overpowered, so I think it should be in game. Although, I'd prefer escort carriers to use Carrier skill instead (it was reasonable before they added jump drive to carrier skill prereqs).
And about scale, I think it should be like 1500-2000 - slightly larger than a battleship. And increased sig makes sense then, too.
FleetAdmiralHarper
Kitchen Sink Kapitals
#386 - 2013-08-13 11:49:37 UTC  |  Edited by: FleetAdmiralHarper
Matthias Thullmann wrote:
FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:
like an orca or freighter

Those two are very different... but I'll assume you want something like an Orca, that can be built in empire stations.... In which case, this ship concept is exactly what you want.
I basically took an Orca, weaponized it, and put it in a random hull. It doesn't matter that it uses a BC hull, that's so far beside the point that you can't even scan for it.

This is not a drone battleship. This is not even a drone battlecruiser. It's a pure carrier in every sense. Don't get hung up on looks or the base hull.
Yes it's technically in the BC class, but Legion is technically in the cruiser class too... Technicalities like that don't matter in the long run.

I'm against fighters because of their special mechanics not because of their damage output. What you're suggesting isn't a fighter per se, it's a heavier heavy drone. And the same exact thing can be simulated by changing a few values on a ship instead of going through development hell. There's no real in game difference between your heavier heavy drones and my bonused heavy drones, so CCP can use this concept to test if your concept is ok, and then introduce it later.

Let's basically try to keep the number of new concepts down, because that's going to increase the chance CCP listens to us.

At least in the short term, CCP isn't going to touch this with a 90 foot pole unless it's made as simple as possible. The hull choice doesn't have to be permanent, CCP can add or change it later like they do with most other ships. But the concept has to be introduced first, and it will never get over the development hump if you guys keep trying to argue over the final variant before the initial ship is even introduced.


sorta. it should be build-able in empire space. and it should be bought under the capital ship menu on the market.
it should also be roughly the same size as a ship of that class 1.5-2km long... when i compared it to the orca or freighter i meant it being a light gate capable capital ship.

your also missing the point, WE DONT WANT A COPY OF A SHIP ALREADY IN GAME. that said the only new thing that would need to be made are the 4 new carrier models.. because then it REALLY is another heavily edited drone boat bc/bs...

also i think you believe its harder to make a ship then it really is, from a programming standpoint from concept to in-game with the model, skin, stats, and any animations (IF any) which is doubtful.
it would only take about a month maybe 2 (and thats being extremely lazy about it).. from concept to test server.. the HARDEST part of that would be picking the concept art...

i as 1 person could do all 4 ships in that time. minus the animations.. which again i doubt it will have. the reason i couldnt do animations is because i was never trained or learned how to do those.. ive made some good mods for homeworld2, company of heroes. and some other games.. as 1 person working alone. so adding 4 units aint **** lol. (excuse my french)

and we have already said to strip the fighters special mechanics so they are on field only combat units. and just reuse their cool hulls to help with models and streamline deploying this new carrier...
they go out, do all the same damage as normal fighters because they are identical, cant warp, get pointed webbed and shot at by sub capital ships main guns.. explode, cost an arm and leg to replace 10-15m ea, make the carrier pilot rage and cut himself. bobs your uncle, thats all she wrote lol.

thanks for the input but again, you didnt read anything..
its ok if you want something different, but your kinda the odd man out here XD. most of the rest of us want a new capital ship.


@Shade Alidiana

agreed. but with out battleship 5. or jump drive stuff.
and it sucks that they did that, because they KILLED my training time. and ill be using my capitals in a wh.. so what the hell is the point of me having those jump skills... where will i ever jump to?
Shade Alidiana
PROSPERO Corporation
#387 - 2013-08-15 09:20:45 UTC
FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:
...
@Shade Alidiana

agreed. but with out battleship 5. or jump drive stuff.
and it sucks that they did that, because they KILLED my training time. and ill be using my capitals in a wh.. so what the hell is the point of me having those jump skills... where will i ever jump to?


Similar issues. Maybe escort carriers skill should be between BS and carrier. And I will be using it there, too.