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Why hi sec players will NOT move into low or null no matter how much you cry about it.

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Zagam
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#121 - 2011-11-11 17:11:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Zagam
Alexandra Alt wrote:
Zagam wrote:

Have you EVER lived in nullsec? I mean, seriously... its not like that. And if it is, you're in the wrong alliance/corp.


Zagam wrote:

There is so much misinformation here, that its no wonder people don't want to go to null...


Really dude, stop with the condescending tone like if your truth is the only truth out there.

We all speak of our experience, and I've experienced pretty much all you can in null, and the big majority of my null life is/was what I described, you might have other experience, I won't call your alliance as an argument about what you perceive to be one reality because that would deviate to the crux of the subject.

There are exceptions ? yes obviously they are, pretty sure if you dwell quite inside DRF space you'll be able to bear/bot all your way without any repercussions or other quieter zones in null, but were talking here is the constant QQ of the null sec dwellers that there's no targets and force people go into null, well, make them instead of whining.

My points there you commented upon are a reply to the subject of hardcore players in null that some fundamentalists believe to be absolute, which is not true, was pretty ironical (in which you failed to detect) but at the same time isn't far away from the truth.

Save your condescending tone for local smack talk with TEST.


Two things:

First, my experience is across several alliances and corps. Your mileage may vary.

Secondly, if you are so outspoken about how bad nullsec is, why don't you post from your main?
Alexandra Alt
Doomheim
#122 - 2011-11-11 17:14:47 UTC
Zagam wrote:

Two things:

First, my experience is across several alliances and corps. Your mileage may vary.

Secondly, if you are so outspoken about how bad nullsec is, why don't you post from your main?


First don't write in such a condescending tone then in which you easily dismiss others 'mileage'
Secondly this is my likes collector, I like to collect Likes, problem much ?
Zagdul
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2011-11-11 18:10:41 UTC
Kemuel wrote:
Zagdul wrote:
Orien Ardent wrote:
Zagdul, you're not getting what the OP is saying, Ptraci got it.

A good question would be, what should change in nullsec player attitude to bring industrial players to null. Please keep in mind that null is designed to be in conflict. It would be unreasonable to expect that no one should attack freighters or the like.

So, a question to OP, what should null look like (including player attitude) for industrial players to be interested in going there?

Carebears need to harden up.

Null is better (in my opinion) to build in and achieve what you want. You can just about do everything in null you can do in empire. In most cases, it's safer because you know who your enemies are.

Honestly, I feel safer in nullsec than I do in empire. The problem is that there are too many people in the game who take on new pilots and tell them that 0.0 is this horrible disgusting palace and that evil people live there who's only purpose in life is to make your's, the new player, miserable. This is far from the truth and too many empire alliances/corps/institutions teach that null sec is horrible and that you shouldn't attempt to go if you have less than 20m SP and capitals and etc...

I've _NEVER_ lived in empire. When I had < 2 m SP, I was in null sec. I advise this to all pilots.



So how is one supposed to actually get involved with null sec when you know no one and are more likely to be scammed than recruited?

One just has to read this forum to see the general attitude towards "carebears" and "pubbies" and know that unless they know someone already in nullsec the likelyhood of doing anything productive out there is close to nil. Doing fleet ops or nul sec was the reason I bought the stupid 5 dollar re-sub... sadly it was a waste :(



Diplomacy is the key to survival in null sec. If you cannot start with making new friends in null, you're not going to get far in the long run.

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement
The F Word
Doomheim
#124 - 2011-11-11 18:36:27 UTC


    Want to get me out of high sec and into null? Start by making it not such a damn chore to be there.

  • Constant CTAs?

  • Getting in fleet and sitting around with your **** in your hand for 2 hours before it even starts?

  • CTAs and fleets that simply last too damn long - but you can't leave because you're too far from 'home'.

  • Having to endure the drama and idiosyncrasies of the leadership (a lot of whom are not fit for general consumption)?

  • Having to keep the logistics of living there up and running?

  • It all makes for very uninspiring gameplay - hence the meta game starts to look better and better.

    • What is it about nullsec that's so appealing again?
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#125 - 2011-11-11 18:39:30 UTC
The F Word wrote:


    Want to get me out of high sec and into null? Start by making it not such a damn chore to be there.

  • Constant CTAs?

  • Getting in fleet and sitting around with your **** in your hand for 2 hours before it even starts?

  • CTAs and fleets that simply last too damn long - but you can't leave because you're too far from 'home'.

  • Having to endure the drama and idiosyncrasies of the leadership (a lot of whom are not fit for general consumption)?

  • Having to keep the logistics of living there up and running?

  • It all makes for very uninspiring gameplay - hence the meta game starts to look better and better.

    • What is it about nullsec that's so appealing again?


perhaps since all of your beefs are corp or alliance related you might not be so quick to condemn null because you flew with morons
The F Word
Doomheim
#126 - 2011-11-11 18:44:49 UTC
Morganta wrote:
The F Word wrote:


    Want to get me out of high sec and into null? Start by making it not such a damn chore to be there.

  • Constant CTAs?

  • Getting in fleet and sitting around with your **** in your hand for 2 hours before it even starts?

  • CTAs and fleets that simply last too damn long - but you can't leave because you're too far from 'home'.

  • Having to endure the drama and idiosyncrasies of the leadership (a lot of whom are not fit for general consumption)?

  • Having to keep the logistics of living there up and running?

  • It all makes for very uninspiring gameplay - hence the meta game starts to look better and better.

    • What is it about nullsec that's so appealing again?


perhaps since all of your beefs are corp or alliance related you might not be so quick to condemn null because you flew with morons


So all the morons are in nullsec?

Morganta
The Greater Goon
#127 - 2011-11-11 18:47:24 UTC
The F Word wrote:
Morganta wrote:
The F Word wrote:


    Want to get me out of high sec and into null? Start by making it not such a damn chore to be there.

  • Constant CTAs?

  • Getting in fleet and sitting around with your **** in your hand for 2 hours before it even starts?

  • CTAs and fleets that simply last too damn long - but you can't leave because you're too far from 'home'.

  • Having to endure the drama and idiosyncrasies of the leadership (a lot of whom are not fit for general consumption)?

  • Having to keep the logistics of living there up and running?

  • It all makes for very uninspiring gameplay - hence the meta game starts to look better and better.

    • What is it about nullsec that's so appealing again?


perhaps since all of your beefs are corp or alliance related you might not be so quick to condemn null because you flew with morons


So all the morons are in nullsec?



well, according to your post, no they're not....
The F Word
Doomheim
#128 - 2011-11-11 18:53:31 UTC
Morganta wrote:
The F Word wrote:
Morganta wrote:
The F Word wrote:


    Want to get me out of high sec and into null? Start by making it not such a damn chore to be there.

  • Constant CTAs?

  • Getting in fleet and sitting around with your **** in your hand for 2 hours before it even starts?

  • CTAs and fleets that simply last too damn long - but you can't leave because you're too far from 'home'.

  • Having to endure the drama and idiosyncrasies of the leadership (a lot of whom are not fit for general consumption)?

  • Having to keep the logistics of living there up and running?

  • It all makes for very uninspiring gameplay - hence the meta game starts to look better and better.

    • What is it about nullsec that's so appealing again?


perhaps since all of your beefs are corp or alliance related you might not be so quick to condemn null because you flew with morons


So all the morons are in nullsec?



well, according to your post, no they're not....


And there it is... why are you making inferences to my intelligence when you should be reinforcing your argument?

My point all along is that is that the gameplay isn't compelling for ME, and evidently I'm not the lone ranger.
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#129 - 2011-11-11 18:58:04 UTC
The F Word wrote:


And there it is... why are you making inferences to my intelligence when you should be reinforcing your argument?

My point all along is that is that the gameplay isn't compelling for ME, and evidently I'm not the lone ranger.






how much explanation do you need for not everyone in null is a moron like the people you apparently have had the misfortune of flying with.

I saw nothing in your comments that were not organizational issues or that could be attributed in null, you reply with the vague assertion that you flew with everyone in null

I'm not sure what you are expecting
Richard Hammond II
Doomheim
#130 - 2011-11-11 19:01:48 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:

As long as the majority of players see null and low sec as a sucker's bet populated only by those that intend to destroy everything creative players build, just to provide yucks for a minority of vocal (putting it nicely) vandals you will NOT see a major migration of hi sec players into low or null sec. Funny thing about intelligent people. They aren't stupid.

Read it and weep.





Funny thing about this is Goons' exploits are only making it WORSE.

They show the highsec carebears that their fears are JUSTIFIED and that the 0.0 dwellers truely want nothing more than to kill them regardless of what anyone would say.

So in making High sec less safe by suicide ganks, all you do is force them out of the game, as has happened with everyone I know. Youre not making the game better or destroying bots like you pretend, youre damaging it and you of course, dont care.

Its just a game
Youe tears taste good

Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#131 - 2011-11-11 19:20:49 UTC
Richard Hammond II wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:

As long as the majority of players see null and low sec as a sucker's bet populated only by those that intend to destroy everything creative players build, just to provide yucks for a minority of vocal (putting it nicely) vandals you will NOT see a major migration of hi sec players into low or null sec. Funny thing about intelligent people. They aren't stupid.

Read it and weep.





Funny thing about this is Goons' exploits are only making it WORSE.

They show the highsec carebears that their fears are JUSTIFIED and that the 0.0 dwellers truely want nothing more than to kill them regardless of what anyone would say.

So in making High sec less safe by suicide ganks, all you do is force them out of the game, as has happened with everyone I know. Youre not making the game better or destroying bots like you pretend, youre damaging it and you of course, dont care.

Its just a game
Youe tears taste good



Really, the best "saving grace" for people's views of nullsec (in light of the goons' forays into Gallente space) would be for one of the other superpowers to get something going. "hey empire ice peeps, we need your oxytopes. We'll work with you to lock down $SYSTEM, so you can get us our ice."


Or hell, empire guys gang together, find a deadend hisec system with oxytopes, and lock it down as best they can...


But yeah, both solutions have the downside of "wait, you mean I have to work with other people?"

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Mrs Sooperdudespaceman
Doomheim
#132 - 2011-11-11 19:34:58 UTC
I'm begging all the 'intelligent' players to stay in Hisec where they can be 'griefed' by the true griefers..

Anaesthera
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2011-11-11 19:41:23 UTC
Vyl Vit wrote:


... ipso facto.




I had to look this up. Thumbs up for you!
Illyreia
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#134 - 2011-11-11 19:47:35 UTC
Scarily, I gave this topic more thought at work.

The more I thought about it, the more it seemed fairly obvious that really, null-sec players don't want high-sec players in their space. The difference in play styles between the two make them incompatible for mixing and there would be one of 3 outcomes:

a) High-seccers hate null and either quit or go back to high.

b) High-seccers love it and stay.

c) (frankly the most poetic) High-seccers moan about null so heavily that ccp ruins it for the original null-seccers.

Time for (hopefully not so) way off the mark speculation.

High sec is generally an area for casual play, it doesn't generate massive love or drama other than storyline events or Jita failing. Very little of the complaining !SEEMS! to come from players in this area. It just ticks along, providing a safe haven for the sensible to get on with things. Casual players outnumber the hardcore by quite a margin.

Low sec requires more concentration, is a step into the more involved parts of the game and unfortunately seems not to yield many, if any, better rewards than highsec. This makes it a pointless, barren wasteland of ganksquads and broken dreams. Casual players are outnumbered by quite a bit here.

Null sec is the most time intensive, perhaps endgame (though being a sandbox, endgame is what you make it) sector of space, it requires manpower, resources, dedication and planning to keep it flowing smoothly. It can be very profitable or it can destroy wealth just as quickly. As with the other two, there is everyone from casual through to the hard core inhabiting this area. I'd guess that the its about 25% casual, 75% hardcore.

Wormholes are nullsec without the bother of soverignty or supercapitals. <3

Many of the NPC corp guys I have talked to have a really weird, warped view of space below 0.5. They read or are told stories about recruitment scams, station camps, afk cloaky alts, supercapital hotdrops, 24/7 camps in entry systems and assume this happens every waking minute of every day. It doesn't help that 00 recruitment officers big their corps up to stupid levels, and then fresh blood is disappointed they are not raking in silly isk per hour and being in a winning 250 ship fleet every evening.

Unfortunately, for as long as nullsec space requires work to hold, it will never cater to the people that just want to log in, chat with their mates, play the market a litle, run some missions or whatever. You surely don't want to remove the best part of nullsec, it's ownership, just to get a couple of thousand more people in there? do you?
Nex apparatu5
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#135 - 2011-11-11 20:07:47 UTC
Alexandra Alt wrote:

This is my likes collector, I like to collect Likes, problem much ?


You appear to be doing it wrong.
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#136 - 2011-11-11 20:08:51 UTC
I recently stated in a thread that I wanted to try mining in low-sec. The response was extremely helpful and informative, and gave me hope and inspiration: "So just do it".

Riiiight.

I'm a numbers person, and I am obsessed with my spreadsheets, but I decided to put together a frig with a couple mining lasers and "just go for it" as was suggested.

The jaspet in the 0.4 system I chose was very pretty, and there was no-one in local the entire time I was there. Those red plusses on the overview, representing the belt rats, were a lot bigger too (something I should have expected, but didn't).

I found a belt that had no rats, filled my tiny cargo-hold a couple times, then went back to high-sec and into my Hulk to see some actual ore come in.

While doing so, I started running numbers based on yesterdays better buy prices for minerals. In the end, mining Jaspet in a 0.4 system doesn't turn much more profit than mining Veldspar in high-sec.
So not only did the "reward" for me going into low-sec already begin to shrink, then add to it that my ore intake in 0.4 would be restricted due to the need to be able to tank/destroy the belt rats when they do show up in their destroyers and cruisers. On top of that, there's the low-sec usual types who will destroy anything they can get targeted.

Maybe it's better for mission running, POS's or such, but the whole "risk vs. reward" thing fails completely when it comes to the financial side of mining in low.

And I don't want to hear "you're doing it wrong". The numbers do not lie. The mineral returns on refining the ores are set. My skills with refining are set, and I have, as an example, both Veldspar processing and Jaspet processing at the same level.
The amount of isk put into an operation in low-sec is not considered profit until you've mined enough to cover the cost of the ships you are using to do it.

I can mine in either place with a Hulk and a half billion isk jet-can (Orca), but in high sec I have a better survival chance due to Cocord's assistance. In low-sec, you can only hope you are able to warp out. Other than that, they can dink away at you for an hour with a frigate or two.

tl:dr: For me, a miner, the difference between 0.5 and low-sec is so extreme, that the reward isn't remotely worth the risk

Profit favors the prepared
Richard Hammond II
Doomheim
#137 - 2011-11-11 20:15:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Hammond II
Velicitia wrote:
Richard Hammond II wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:

As long as the majority of players see null and low sec as a sucker's bet populated only by those that intend to destroy everything creative players build, just to provide yucks for a minority of vocal (putting it nicely) vandals you will NOT see a major migration of hi sec players into low or null sec. Funny thing about intelligent people. They aren't stupid.

Read it and weep.





Funny thing about this is Goons' exploits are only making it WORSE.

They show the highsec carebears that their fears are JUSTIFIED and that the 0.0 dwellers truely want nothing more than to kill them regardless of what anyone would say.

So in making High sec less safe by suicide ganks, all you do is force them out of the game, as has happened with everyone I know. Youre not making the game better or destroying bots like you pretend, youre damaging it and you of course, dont care.

Its just a game
Youe tears taste good



Really, the best "saving grace" for people's views of nullsec (in light of the goons' forays into Gallente space) would be for one of the other superpowers to get something going. "hey empire ice peeps, we need your oxytopes. We'll work with you to lock down $SYSTEM, so you can get us our ice."


Or hell, empire guys gang together, find a deadend hisec system with oxytopes, and lock it down as best they can...


But yeah, both solutions have the downside of "wait, you mean I have to work with other people?"


They also have the downside of highsec ppl not having access to moon goo and making more than a billion a day, which I think is the larger issue here. Goons/0.0 ppl have basically unlimited resources for their fun, Highsec dont.

Its kinda like a DM game vs ppl with God Mode on

As the post above me has said, what with the amount on volume you lose having to tank your ship instead of running stuff that gets you better yield, and the lack of resources to get the minerals/ores to high sec to sell OR stations to process them, you make pretty much the same money as just one guy in a corp mining veld in high sec as you do just one guy mining ABC ores in 0.0. Sanctums make you less money than running a lvl 4 as well.

Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#138 - 2011-11-11 21:09:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Richard Hammond II wrote:

They also have the downside of highsec ppl not having access to moon goo and making more than a billion a day, which I think is the larger issue here. Goons/0.0 ppl have basically unlimited resources for their fun, Highsec dont.

Its kinda like a DM game vs ppl with God Mode on

As the post above me has said, what with the amount on volume you lose having to tank your ship instead of running stuff that gets you better yield, and the lack of resources to get the minerals/ores to high sec to sell OR stations to process them, you make pretty much the same money as just one guy in a corp mining veld in high sec as you do just one guy mining ABC ores in 0.0. Sanctums make you less money than running a lvl 4 as well.



Well, not really. The person above you was doing it solo, so using that as an argument to not head to low is meh.

Pulling Sov holding alliances in the general "northern" regions of the map (ignoring the goons).

White Noise
Raiden
RAZOR
Get off my lawn
Fatal Ascension
Tactical Narcotics Team
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
Fidelas (something ... the name is obscured by another alliance's)
Gentleman's Agreement
The Methodical Alliance

and a few others that I can't read (damn png map)

I'm sure *some* of them are big enough to have moongoo income, and need oxytopes, and don't like the goons ...

So, one of them contacts empire miners in Gallente space. They agree on a lowsec ice system.
Alliance provides the muscle, empire miners provide the oxytopes (or ice, whichever).

Trouble with that is the stupid fact that all lowsec systems with ice appear to have stations as well (WTF CCP).

edit -- alternatively, there is NPC nullsec with oxytopes that these guys could help set up a psuedo-safe system for a day or two...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#139 - 2011-11-11 21:35:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Something to consider regarding Null Sec and it's residents.

Often a successful high sec based entity approaches a null sec entity to become a renter.

Once this happens the renter either fails to learn how to protect itself and it's interests, or it gains strength and experience sufficient to hold their given territory.

As time progresses, if the renters organization survives, it begins to attract a larger membership and greater wealth starts being generated for it's members.

Eventually they begin to feel the need to expand their borders, or at least solidify their holdings.

Finally they find themselves being approached by other empire based organizations for the purpose of seeking a rental agreement with them... or simply trying to move into the space that they had shown the initiative to carve out for themselves.

The interesting this about this whole process is, these people suddenly realize that people in Empire local and on the forums are calling THEM the evil, hard core PVP only fanatics of null sec. Suddenly they are The Bad Guy, and are accused of having no further ambitions in EVE other than to kill defenseless Empire dwellers.

Obviously exceptions exist, also sometimes these people decide "what the hell, I might as well make the most of the rep" and become exactly what you accuse them of.

But more often than you would believe, the only difference between you (the industrious citizen of empire) and them (the blood crazed, power hunger despots of null sec) is location and level of organization.

Food for thought.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#140 - 2011-11-11 22:08:14 UTC
Evei Shard wrote:
In the end, mining Jaspet in a 0.4 system doesn't turn much more profit than mining Veldspar in high-sec.
So not only did the "reward" for me going into low-sec already begin to shrink, then add to it that my ore intake in 0.4 would be restricted due to the need to be able to tank/destroy the belt rats when they do show up in their destroyers and cruisers. On top of that, there's the low-sec usual types who will destroy anything they can get targeted.


A few things you probably didn't take into account for your spreadsheet because you were so focused on the numbers.

Low sec mining gets you access to Zydrine and Noxcium. Now usually you can find this stuff on the market. But usually it's pretty far away in the trade hubs. Therefore as well as calculating the "ISK/hr", you must take into account 1) The cost of a hauler to go pick it up and bring it back 2) the time involved. If you are an industrialist who "builds his own", just having it nearby is possibly much more profitable than having to go all the way to Jita/Amarr/Dodixie to get it, even if the "isk/hour" of mining is the same.

But yes, I agree with you that you will absolutely not get rich by mining in low sec.