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[Odyssey 1.1] Dominix bonus change

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Jimmy P De'Souza
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#261 - 2013-08-11 16:23:59 UTC
Joan Greywind wrote:
It's not that a big of a nerf anyways, adds up to 12.5% on level 5. That is a decrease of 12.5% to your total tracking, which isn't game changing, so I don't know why the excessive whining. It is more of a tweak than a change, admittedly a deserved one.


Thats the kind of stupidity were looking at here as well...

The reasoning behind it supposedly is to bring them in line with other weapons. Other weapons have a huge amount of advantages over drones. Even just looking at the long range side of it your talking out of your arse.

Drone tracking mods just give you 25% optimal and 25% tracking, whereas TC give you 16% Optimal and 32% falloff, or 35% tracking. TC are better.

It takes 2 tracking mods to enable unbonused rails to hit to 249, 1 to allow 200. Take that to 3 and 2 with other weapons. Do you know how many it takes for a domi to hit out to those ranges with Wardens? 11. And that is currently, after this change it just isnt going to be possible.

That isnt in line, that is a ship which is built to be a sniping ship being made even worse than the other sniping ships than it already is.


Now supposedly it is to hinder people drone assist abusing in PVP, but this change isn't going to do **** about that, and the only thing that could do **** about that they arent willing to touch for some reason.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#262 - 2013-08-11 16:24:08 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
David Xavier wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
The domi was massively over-buffed and we all know it. It's more a shame this wasn't picked up in test.


Look another frigates above all crusader being butthurt because there is a single battleship they can't solo.


Nothing to do with that, it was FAR too powerful. Utterly ridiculous. That DPS at those ranges was nonsense.



When you need EIGHT mods to make the things usefull

i.e.
x3 Omni
x3 Damage Amps
x3 Link Augmentors

exactly how powerful are they supposed to be?

....oh and that isn't counting a Sebo to actually use the range on every not garde sentry.
Jimmy P De'Souza
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#263 - 2013-08-11 16:39:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Jimmy P De'Souza
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
In short: Tracking is one of the best bonuses that can applied to a ship these days and can be balanced by having said ship stay in the low end of paper dps (ex. Apocalypse).


..?!

You are aware that the Apoc when fitted with Beams has better paper dps to greater ranges than a sentry domi while using less mods right? Or that you can fit a pulse apoc to hit to garde ranges with garde dps, but with the ability to ammo and OH to 1300+ dps.

Right?
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#264 - 2013-08-11 17:05:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Oliver Stoned wrote:
My question would be "How many of the (NERF the Dominix) actually fly it on a regular basis?"..

It is one the daftest questions out there only trumped by 'post with your main'. Do you have to jump of a high-rise in speedo's to know it is a bad idea?
What you should have asked to retain any sort of credibility and relevance was if the people not crying their eyes out over the change know how tracking works and are knowledgeable in PvP in general.

PS: Eos is being made into a dream boat in case you missed. Expect it and its sibling to get the bat prior to release though, a tad over the top both Smile
Onictus wrote:
...When you need EIGHT mods to make the things usefull...

You mean like a gunboat that has to spend 7-8 slots for guns, 2-3 lowslots for damage/TE and midslots to run it all? .. droneboats, even when tricked out for all out sniping does not come close to the 'other' hulls in sacrifices made.
Jimmy P De'Souza wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
In short: Tracking is one of the best bonuses that can applied to a ship these days and can be balanced by having said ship stay in the low end of paper dps (ex. Apocalypse).


..?!

You are aware that the Apoc when fitted with Beams has better paper dps to greater ranges than a sentry domi while using less mods right? Or that you can fit a pulse apoc to hit to garde ranges with garde dps, but with the ability to ammo and OH to 1300+ dps.

Right?

Ok, I'll humour you.

Assuming you are talking about Tachyon's with Aurora for the first falsehood: Eight (8) Tachyons needing fitting help to get on augmented by seven HSII's gives you a whopping 438 dps (OH = 515) @ 163km .. so the biggest bore guns with an outright silly amount of damage mods doesn't do it. What is your secret?

Assuming you are talking about MegaPulse with Conflagration (closest to Garde range, highest dps) for the second falsehood: Eight (8) Mega Pulse augmented by seven HSII gives you a whopping 892 dps (OH = 1026) @ 21+10km .. so the biggest bore guns with an outright silly amount of damage mods doesn't do it. What is your secret?

Would you like to do the same for Sentry Dominix or should I? You have 15 slots (8 + 7) to use as you see fit.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#265 - 2013-08-11 17:15:20 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
David Xavier wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
The domi was massively over-buffed and we all know it. It's more a shame this wasn't picked up in test.


Look another frigates above all crusader being butthurt because there is a single battleship they can't solo.


Nothing to do with that, it was FAR too powerful. Utterly ridiculous. That DPS at those ranges was nonsense.



When you need EIGHT mods to make the things usefull

i.e.
x3 Omni
x3 Damage Amps
x3 Link Augmentors

exactly how powerful are they supposed to be?

....oh and that isn't counting a Sebo to actually use the range on every not garde sentry.



You cannot change the fact it's was (possibly even still is) too much damage at those ranges. Compare the numbers to other "sniper" or hell even just longish range boats, cruise excluded due to travel time/firewall shenannigans. The other ships aren't even at the races.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#266 - 2013-08-11 17:28:38 UTC
Jimmy P De'Souza wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
In short: Tracking is one of the best bonuses that can applied to a ship these days and can be balanced by having said ship stay in the low end of paper dps (ex. Apocalypse).


..?!

You are aware that the Apoc when fitted with Beams has better paper dps to greater ranges than a sentry domi while using less mods right? Or that you can fit a pulse apoc to hit to garde ranges with garde dps, but with the ability to ammo and OH to 1300+ dps.

Right?

And the tracking?

How does the tracking compare?

Just to go with "Less mods" on the Apoc, so 9 mods fit to Domi I can get:

With Garde II's: 78km Optimal, 12km Falloff, 751 DPS, and 0.093 tracking.

Meanwhile the Apoc:

With 8 Mega Pulses (Scorch): 62km Optimal, 10km Falloff, 353 DPS, and 0.043 tracking

With 8 Tachyon Beams (Navy Xray to match range): 79KM Optimal, 25KM Falloff, 314 DPS, and 0.023 tracking


So with this both Apocs get less than half as much DPS with less than half the tracking at the ranges the Garde hits with "less mods". Oh, and the 8 Tachs fit doesn't even fit (short on PWG).


Now, to compare the same with 3 TE's, 3 Heat Sinks (14 slots on each, far less than the Domi's 9 more than making up for -1 slot).


Domi:
Garde II's: 78KM Optimal, 12km Falloff, 751 DPS, 0.093 tracking

Apoc: (DPS/Heat DPS)
Mega Pulse:78km Optimal, 16km Falloff, 584/672 DPS, 0.054 tracking
Tachyon (Navy Gamma): 72km Optimal, 39km Falloff, 635/747 DPS, 0.029 tracking.


So, even with many more mods being used, they get inferior DPS (even with heat!) at the same ranges as Garde's, and inferior tracking meaning that not only is paper DPS worse, but also applied. The tracking is almost half of the Garde's in both situations.

Also, at any point the Domi can switch out to any other sentry types it has in bay, such as Bouncers, or Wardens for substantially more range.

Now this is with the 10% per level. For post patch simply multiply the Optimal and Tracking of the Domi by 0.916666. Those stats will still be better.

Now admittably, the Pulse Apoc has the advantage of being able to switch to Multifrequency for being stronger at short ranges, but the tracking is still worse...
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#267 - 2013-08-11 17:41:59 UTC
Jimmy P De'Souza wrote:
Other weapon systems can choose their damage types without giving up range (not all).


There's only two weapon systems that allow damage type selection:
- Missiles
- Projectiles (T2 limited to expl/kin)

Your statement is only true for missiles.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#268 - 2013-08-11 17:44:48 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Jimmy P De'Souza wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
In short: Tracking is one of the best bonuses that can applied to a ship these days and can be balanced by having said ship stay in the low end of paper dps (ex. Apocalypse).


..?!

You are aware that the Apoc when fitted with Beams has better paper dps to greater ranges than a sentry domi while using less mods right? Or that you can fit a pulse apoc to hit to garde ranges with garde dps, but with the ability to ammo and OH to 1300+ dps.

Right?

And the tracking?

How does the tracking compare?

Just to go with "Less mods" on the Apoc, so 9 mods fit to Domi I can get:

With Garde II's: 78km Optimal, 12km Falloff, 751 DPS, and 0.093 tracking.

Meanwhile the Apoc:

With 8 Mega Pulses (Scorch): 62km Optimal, 10km Falloff, 353 DPS, and 0.043 tracking

With 8 Tachyon Beams (Navy Xray to match range): 79KM Optimal, 25KM Falloff, 314 DPS, and 0.023 tracking


So with this both Apocs get less than half as much DPS with less than half the tracking at the ranges the Garde hits with "less mods". Oh, and the 8 Tachs fit doesn't even fit (short on PWG).


Now, to compare the same with 3 TE's, 3 Heat Sinks (14 slots on each, far less than the Domi's 9 more than making up for -1 slot).


Domi:
Garde II's: 78KM Optimal, 12km Falloff, 751 DPS, 0.093 tracking

Apoc: (DPS/Heat DPS)
Mega Pulse:78km Optimal, 16km Falloff, 584/672 DPS, 0.054 tracking
Tachyon (Navy Gamma): 72km Optimal, 39km Falloff, 635/747 DPS, 0.029 tracking.


So, even with many more mods being used, they get inferior DPS (even with heat!) at the same ranges as Garde's, and inferior tracking meaning that not only is paper DPS worse, but also applied. The tracking is almost half of the Garde's in both situations.

Also, at any point the Domi can switch out to any other sentry types it has in bay, such as Bouncers, or Wardens for substantially more range.

Now this is with the 10% per level. For post patch simply multiply the Optimal and Tracking of the Domi by 0.916666. Those stats will still be better.

Now admittably, the Pulse Apoc has the advantage of being able to switch to Multifrequency for being stronger at short ranges, but the tracking is still worse...


You can't blow mega pulse IIs off the side of the ship either......and when you warp they go with you.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#269 - 2013-08-11 17:50:13 UTC
Onictus wrote:

You can't blow mega pulse IIs off the side of the ship either......and when you warp they go with you.


Sorry, I took particular offence to:

Jimmy P De'Souza wrote:

..?!

You are aware that the Apoc when fitted with Beams has better paper dps to greater ranges than a sentry domi while using less mods right? Or that you can fit a pulse apoc to hit to garde ranges with garde dps, but with the ability to ammo and OH to 1300+ dps.

Right?


I agree, there are disadvantages to drones. I just had to correct this. This bothered me.
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#270 - 2013-08-11 18:01:35 UTC
Comparing sentry drones to Tachs is also a bit... dumb.

There's multiple ships that can utilize sentry drones properly.
There's only ship that can utilize Tachs properly.
Jimmy P De'Souza
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#271 - 2013-08-11 18:02:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Jimmy P De'Souza
Goldensaver wrote:
....



You are aware that your figures are wrong for all of your examples, right?

I did write out a large list of how each differing setup of scipt and unscript performs but I will leave it at this due to the damned forum deleting the post for whatever reason.

I cant be arsed re-doing that. I will however just state this.

With 3 TEs and 3 Heaksinks on Pulses, I can get 710 dps out to the same distance gardes get 745 dps with 0.07 rad/s instead of the gardes 0.093.

However I can then use differing ammo to get higher damage (which can also be boosted by hardwiring unlike drones), or better range and tracking with scripts and such. On top of that I can also move and dont have to worry about my weapons being shot off of me, or losing my weapons if I have to warp out in a hurry..

Same or similar is true with other examples, but it took forever to get all of the **** down.

If it saves drafts, why does it only save the most recent...




I am not inherently against this change, but they are making it 7.5 because everything else is 7.5 but everything else has a differing set of mechanics which go along with it. Give me a proper scriptable TC, give me a way to get my drones back in my hold quickly, with a cooldown or such to prevent spamming, make it so if I can target it I can hit it, so on and so forth.

You cant just change things at random to be identical and think that makes things the same, they are entirely different systems.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#272 - 2013-08-11 18:21:11 UTC
Is it just me or is this thread going in circles now ... apoc scorch vs Domi gardes ... has been done already guess who wins this?

Pros to drones
no one bothers to try and jam or damp or TD sentries.. why would you?
no cap usage... so can't be neuted out
can assign drones to frigs etc...
Can have different drone sizes/ damage types/ranges etc..
Can have multiple sets of drones
Free highs/ less tackle needed
Able to engage all ship types effectively

Cons to drones
can be destroyed
can be left behind
travel time


mm.. turns out there is more pro's than con's .. who would have thought it?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#273 - 2013-08-11 18:25:32 UTC
Jimmy P De'Souza wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
....



You are aware that your figures are wrong for all of your examples, right?

I did write out a large list of how each differing setup of scipt and unscript performs but I will leave it at this due to the damned forum deleting the post for whatever reason.

I cant be arsed re-doing that. I will however just state this.

With 3 TEs and 3 Heaksinks on Pulses, I can get 710 dps out to the same distance gardes get 745 dps with 0.7 rad/s instead of the gardes 0.093.

However I can then use differing ammo to get higher damage (which can also be boosted by hardwiring unlike drones), or better range and tracking with scripts and such. On top of that I can also move and dont have to worry about my weapons being shot off of me, or losing my weapons if I have to warp out in a hurry..

Same or similar is true with other examples, but it took forever to get all of the **** down.

If it saves drafts, why does it only save the most recent...




I am not inherently against this change, but they are making it 7.5 because everything else is 7.5 but everything else has a differing set of mechanics which go along with it. Give me a proper scriptable TC, give me a way to get my drones back in my hold quickly, with a cooldown or such to prevent spamming, make it so if I can target it I can hit it, so on and so forth.

You cant just change things at random to be identical and think that makes things the same, they are entirely different systems.


Your numbers are bullshit. Complete bullshit. There's literally no ******* way a Mega Pulser will get .7 rad/s tracking. My numbers that I posted are right.
Oh, and your TC script numbers are wrong. 7.5% optimal, 15% falloff, 15% tracking, doubling up to 15% Optimal and 30% falloff, or, 30% tracking. But not both at once.

I agree, it doesn't make sense to nerf it for the sake of "other numbers are this, so these numbers will be this", but if it's needed, like I think this one is, I think the nerf has to happen.
Jimmy P De'Souza
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#274 - 2013-08-11 18:33:34 UTC
Harvey James wrote:

Pros to drones
1) no one bothers to try and jam or damp or TD sentries.. why would you?
2) no cap usage... so can't be neuted out
3) can assign drones to frigs etc...
4) Can have different drone sizes/ damage types/ranges etc..
5) Can have multiple sets of drones
6) Free highs/ less tackle needed
7) Able to engage all ship types effectively

Cons to drones
can be destroyed
can be left behind
travel time



1) No one bothers because it is a waste of time. A 1-2 volleys (depending on the weapon) will pop a bonused sentry. They only have 5k hp and basic resists.
2) Same is true of Arty/missiles/any ship with a booster.
3) This is a problem that needs to be fixed, yet they arent fixing it.
4) Ammo in your weapon = same thing.
5&7) Tackle accomplishes this for turret ships. Also drones cannot engage all ships effectively. Any ship with a smartbomb, any missile ship, or any fast ship massively reduces the effectiveness of drones. Yes your warriors will catch up, but they will overshoot and never be within optimal or tracking right, and then when thier MWD cycle ends they get left behind and the entire thing repeats.
6) You dont get free highs if you want to hit at long range, you also need tackle.
Jimmy P De'Souza
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#275 - 2013-08-11 18:35:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Jimmy P De'Souza
Goldensaver wrote:
Your numbers are bullshit. Complete bullshit. There's literally no ******* way a Mega Pulser will get .7 rad/s tracking. My numbers that I posted are right.
Oh, and your TC script numbers are wrong. 7.5% optimal, 15% falloff, 15% tracking, doubling up to 15% Optimal and 30% falloff, or, 30% tracking. But not both at once.

I agree, it doesn't make sense to nerf it for the sake of "other numbers are this, so these numbers will be this", but if it's needed, like I think this one is, I think the nerf has to happen.


3 TCs, 2 unscripted and one tracking.. An apoc with mega pulses and scorch.

Put them in and come back to me.

Hell with non t2 they have better tracking than gardes (but worse dps ofc).

Oh yeah, missed the 0.0 :D But unless your being an ass you knew what I meant. 0.02 Rad/s is a bit, but then you can script and such to get better as you need it. At the longer ranges 0.07 is plenty (4.5km/s or so target) and as it gets closer you dont need the optimal any more.
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#276 - 2013-08-11 18:42:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobias Hareka
Jimmy P De'Souza wrote:
3 TCs, 2 unscripted and one tracking.. An apoc with mega pulses and scorch.

Put them in and come back to me.

Hell with non t2 they have better tracking than gardes (but worse dps ofc).


[Apocalypse, bit pricey]

[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

[Empty Med slot]
Cormack's Modified Tracking Computer
Cormack's Modified Tracking Computer
Cormack's Modified Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed Script

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L

[Empty Rig slot]
[Empty Rig slot]
[Empty Rig slot]


Eifyr and Co. 'Gunslinger' Motion Prediction MR-706

73,9km + 14km
0,0867 rad/s

[Apocalypse, Dual Heavy still a bit pricey]

[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

[Empty Med slot]
Cormack's Modified Tracking Computer
Cormack's Modified Tracking Computer
Cormack's Modified Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed Script

Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L

[Empty Rig slot]
[Empty Rig slot]
[Empty Rig slot]


Eifyr and Co. 'Gunslinger' Motion Prediction MR-706

22,2km + 10,5km
0,128 rad/s
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#277 - 2013-08-11 18:48:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldensaver
Jimmy P De'Souza wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Your numbers are bullshit. Complete bullshit. There's literally no ******* way a Mega Pulser will get .7 rad/s tracking. My numbers that I posted are right.
Oh, and your TC script numbers are wrong. 7.5% optimal, 15% falloff, 15% tracking, doubling up to 15% Optimal and 30% falloff, or, 30% tracking. But not both at once.

I agree, it doesn't make sense to nerf it for the sake of "other numbers are this, so these numbers will be this", but if it's needed, like I think this one is, I think the nerf has to happen.


3 TCs, 2 unscripted and one tracking.. An apoc with mega pulses and scorch.

Put them in and come back to me.

Hell with non t2 they have better tracking than gardes (but worse dps ofc).

Base T2 Mega Pulse lasers get .03375 rads tracking. to go up to .7 that would need to multiply it by 20.74, or in essence have 2074% bonuses to tracking.

An Apoc with that config gets approximately 0.03375 * 1.375 (BS V) * 1.25 (Motion Prediction) * 1.3 (Scripted TC 1) * (1 + (0.15 * .87)) (a stacking penalized unscripted) * (1 + (0.15 * .57)) (again, stacking penalized unscripted)

This totals at:
0.092 rad/s

Now you can multiply this by .75 because of the tracking penalty from Scorch, because that's the only way you'll possibly get enough range to match a Garde II and have any damage at all.

Jimmy P De'Souza wrote:

Oh yeah, missed the 0.0 :D But unless your being an ass you knew what I meant. 0.02 Rad/s is a bit, but then you can script and such to get better as you need it. At the longer ranges 0.07 is plenty (4.5km/s or so target) and as it gets closer you dont need the optimal any more.


My apologies here. I didn't know what you meant. This is the EVE-O forums, I always bet on stupid. I'm sorry about that.
Jimmy P De'Souza
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#278 - 2013-08-11 18:49:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Jimmy P De'Souza
Thanks tobias, you made me notice I had put 0.7 instead of 0.07, which makes his post make more sense (indeed I thought he had made the same mistake :D).

Goldensaver wrote:
My apologies here. I didn't know what you meant. This is the EVE-O forums, I always bet on stupid. I'm sorry about that.


No worries mate, thought you had missed the 0 yourself so went along as if you had. Can see how that would cause confusion.
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#279 - 2013-08-11 18:56:47 UTC
Jimmy P De'Souza wrote:
Thanks tobias, you made me notice I had put 0.7 instead of 0.07, which makes his post make more sense (indeed I thought he had made the same mistake :D).


Do you notice anything... unusual... on those fits? Modules you don't often see in pvp ship?
Jimmy P De'Souza
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#280 - 2013-08-11 18:59:10 UTC
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Do you notice anything... unusual... on those fits? Modules you don't often see in pvp ship?


Yes, but that has nothing to do with anything.