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Phoenix/citadel missiles buff for Odyssey 1.1

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Allandri
Liandri Industrial
#21 - 2013-08-10 14:34:39 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:

Yes that is true, but I didn't notice until just now that you are confusing explosion explosion velocity with explosion radius. You might be confusing the two. Look up hams vs hms. you will notice that hams have either identical or better explosion radius and far better explosion velocity, making them have far superior tracking.


Here is the explosion radius and explosion velocity for a select group of missiles. Radius is the first column, velocity is the second

Citadel Torpedoes 20m/s 2km

Citadel Cruise 29m/s 1.75km

Cruise 69m/s 300m

Torpedo 71m/s 450m

Heavy Assault 101m/s 125m

Heavy 81m/s 125m



As you can see, there really isn't a standard when it comes to explosion radius and explosion velocity
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2013-08-10 14:41:13 UTC
Allandri wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:

Yes that is true, but I didn't notice until just now that you are confusing explosion explosion velocity with explosion radius. You might be confusing the two. Look up hams vs hms. you will notice that hams have either identical or better explosion radius and far better explosion velocity, making them have far superior tracking.


Here is the explosion radius and explosion velocity for a select group of missiles. Radius is the first column, velocity is the second

Citadel Torpedoes 20m/s 2km

Citadel Cruise 29m/s 1.75km

Cruise 69m/s 300m

Torpedo 71m/s 450m

Heavy Assault 101m/s 125m

Heavy 81m/s 125m



As you can see, there really isn't a standard when it comes to explosion radius and explosion velocity


Good point.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-08-11 15:22:30 UTC
bump

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Apelacja
Sad Najwyzszy
#24 - 2013-08-11 22:37:17 UTC
nobody use phoenix....it sucks. Was is and will.

The only way to boost Phoenix is to give it Rails ;)


And tbh skill smthing usefull CCP didnt boost it for 7 years.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-08-11 22:48:01 UTC
Apelacja wrote:
nobody use phoenix....it sucks. Was is and will.

The only way to boost Phoenix is to give it Rails ;)


And tbh skill smthing usefull CCP didnt boost it for 7 years.


Uh, ok? So your logic is it's bad and so no one should use it instead of CCP fixing it? Furthermore you say that because CCP has not fixed it they never will? Some logic, lol! Of course they won't if people all think like that! It would be a relatively trivial change; I don't see what's to moan about.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Me of Course
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#26 - 2013-08-13 02:14:15 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Fit the right rigs to your phoenix? target painter is meant to help against smaller targets but you need rigs to apply it better. Like you guys said it is due to their general immunity to ewar that this is in place. With an ewar rebalance you might see explosion velcoty modules butni wouldnt count on it

i dont know if you know this or not, but Target painters don't affect ships in seige or triage OR supers (last i checked, yep they dont) and seeing as citadel torpedoes don't even do full damage to a damn POS, much less a capital and even much less to a subcap... and even more so as you can actually speed tank them just by moving your ship

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=268764&find=unread <<< Skin's for ships COMON, YOU KNOW YOU WANT IT!
Me of Course
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#27 - 2013-08-13 02:20:24 UTC
General Guardian wrote:
Well, in one very unlikely (but possible) way. Citadel missiles COULD be considered way overpowered. Although for this to occur there would have to be some major shenanigans involved.

Let's say your Citadel torpedo thas a max range of 65km and rate of fire is 13 seconds.
Total alpha we can average at 140k for this example.

If by some bizarre turn of events you got starbursted or super bumped towards a target from max range at roughly the same speed as your torps (vicinity of 1750m/s?), you would arrive on top of your target at the same time as your first 2 volleys to hit, and 2 seconds before the 3rd volley hits.

This is roughly 420k damage in the space of 3 seconds. Or 140k dps.

This isn't possible with turrets.

:D

your forgetting missile explosion velocity... if the ship is going faster then your explosion velocity, then they receive less damage from the missile, and their signature radius is smaller then the explosion radius. go try shooting a capital that's going 1.7 km/s with citadel torpedoes and see what your getting, then shoot it again when its moving at the ship's native speed and again at 0m/s and see the damage, then you'd see what im talking about

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=268764&find=unread <<< Skin's for ships COMON, YOU KNOW YOU WANT IT!
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-08-13 02:22:54 UTC
Me of Course wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Fit the right rigs to your phoenix? target painter is meant to help against smaller targets but you need rigs to apply it better. Like you guys said it is due to their general immunity to ewar that this is in place. With an ewar rebalance you might see explosion velcoty modules butni wouldnt count on it

i dont know if you know this or not, but Target painters don't affect ships in seige or triage OR supers (last i checked, yep they dont) and seeing as citadel torpedoes don't even do full damage to a damn POS, much less a capital and even much less to a subcap... and even more so as you can actually speed tank them just by moving your ship


You completely missed the point of his quote: he was saying ewar cuts slack on missiles so even cit missiles wont get buffed. On a side not you confirmed what I'm saying that cit torps are under-powered.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2013-08-13 02:26:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Vassal Zeren
Me of Course wrote:
General Guardian wrote:
Well, in one very unlikely (but possible) way. Citadel missiles COULD be considered way overpowered. Although for this to occur there would have to be some major shenanigans involved.

Let's say your Citadel torpedo thas a max range of 65km and rate of fire is 13 seconds.
Total alpha we can average at 140k for this example.

If by some bizarre turn of events you got starbursted or super bumped towards a target from max range at roughly the same speed as your torps (vicinity of 1750m/s?), you would arrive on top of your target at the same time as your first 2 volleys to hit, and 2 seconds before the 3rd volley hits.

This is roughly 420k damage in the space of 3 seconds. Or 140k dps.

This isn't possible with turrets.

:D

your forgetting missile explosion velocity... if the ship is going faster then your explosion velocity, then they receive less damage from the missile, and their signature radius is smaller then the explosion radius. go try shooting a capital that's going 1.7 km/s with citadel torpedoes and see what your getting, then shoot it again when its moving at the ship's native speed and again at 0m/s and see the damage, then you'd see what im talking about


Ok, as stupid and irrelevant as his post was yours is worse. He just said that if his missile ship was moving towards a target he could lay out several volleys in a shorter amount of time than usually. Which makes NOOO sense, and is so god awful circumstantial that I wonder how the hell someone could find it fit to post that. You on the other hand, cannot read to save your life.

EDIT: but your bio IS good.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Me of Course
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#30 - 2013-08-13 03:08:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Me of Course
Quote:


Ok, as stupid and irrelevant as his post was yours is worse. He just said that if his missile ship was moving towards a target he could lay out several volleys in a shorter amount of time than usually. Which makes NOOO sense, and is so god awful circumstantial that I wonder how the hell someone could find it fit to post that. You on the other hand, cannot read to save your life.

EDIT: but your bio IS good.

yes i understand what he is saying, however if you notice what i am saying is that sure you land 3 volleys of missiles on him at the same time, how ever you are not going to apply the full damage, or any damage at all because of explosion velocity, your ship is outrunning the explosion, that's what i am getting at.


edit: and cheers :)

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=268764&find=unread <<< Skin's for ships COMON, YOU KNOW YOU WANT IT!
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-08-13 03:13:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Vassal Zeren
Me of Course wrote:
Quote:


Ok, as stupid and irrelevant as his post was yours is worse. He just said that if his missile ship was moving towards a target he could lay out several volleys in a shorter amount of time than usually. Which makes NOOO sense, and is so god awful circumstantial that I wonder how the hell someone could find it fit to post that. You on the other hand, cannot read to save your life.

EDIT: but your bio IS good.

yes i understand what he is saying, however if you notice what i am saying is that sure you land 3 volleys of missiles on him at the same time, how ever you are not going to apply the full damage, or any damage at all because of explosion velocity, your ship is outrunning the explosion, that's what i am getting at.


edit: and cheers :)


Your speed has nothing to do with how much damage the missile does; only your targets speed matters. The speed your ship is traveling at only matters in gun damage calculation.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Me of Course
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#32 - 2013-08-13 03:18:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Me of Course
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Me of Course wrote:
Quote:


Ok, as stupid and irrelevant as his post was yours is worse. He just said that if his missile ship was moving towards a target he could lay out several volleys in a shorter amount of time than usually. Which makes NOOO sense, and is so god awful circumstantial that I wonder how the hell someone could find it fit to post that. You on the other hand, cannot read to save your life.

EDIT: but your bio IS good.

yes i understand what he is saying, however if you notice what i am saying is that sure you land 3 volleys of missiles on him at the same time, how ever you are not going to apply the full damage, or any damage at all because of explosion velocity, your ship is outrunning the explosion, that's what i am getting at.


edit: and cheers :)


Your speed has nothing to do with how much damage the missile does; only your targets speed matters. The speed your ship is traveling at only matters in gun damage calculation.

ok im stupid, miss-read his post for some reason i thought he said that the enemy ship was going at 1.7km/s not his ship (sorry :P) but the point is still there, it is possible to move your ship to negate the enemy torp's damage

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=268764&find=unread <<< Skin's for ships COMON, YOU KNOW YOU WANT IT!
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2013-08-13 03:34:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Vassal Zeren
Me of Course wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Me of Course wrote:
Quote:


Ok, as stupid and irrelevant as his post was yours is worse. He just said that if his missile ship was moving towards a target he could lay out several volleys in a shorter amount of time than usually. Which makes NOOO sense, and is so god awful circumstantial that I wonder how the hell someone could find it fit to post that. You on the other hand, cannot read to save your life.

EDIT: but your bio IS good.

yes i understand what he is saying, however if you notice what i am saying is that sure you land 3 volleys of missiles on him at the same time, how ever you are not going to apply the full damage, or any damage at all because of explosion velocity, your ship is outrunning the explosion, that's what i am getting at.


edit: and cheers :)


Your speed has nothing to do with how much damage the missile does; only your targets speed matters. The speed your ship is traveling at only matters in gun damage calculation.

ok im stupid, miss-read his post for some reason i thought he said that the enemy ship was going at 1.7km/s not his ship (sorry :P) but the point is still there, it is possible to move your ship to negate the enemy torp's damage


You mean the point I've been making the whole time?! That point?

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Me of Course
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#34 - 2013-08-13 03:50:50 UTC
haha, yes yes :P sorry just had my caffeine so i kinda posted that half awake :P but yeah that's the point i've been trying to make

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=268764&find=unread <<< Skin's for ships COMON, YOU KNOW YOU WANT IT!
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#35 - 2013-08-13 04:54:04 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Apelacja wrote:
nobody use phoenix....it sucks. Was is and will.

The only way to boost Phoenix is to give it Rails ;)


And tbh skill smthing usefull CCP didnt boost it for 7 years.


Uh, ok? So your logic is it's bad and so no one should use it instead of CCP fixing it? Furthermore you say that because CCP has not fixed it they never will? Some logic, lol! Of course they won't if people all think like that! It would be a relatively trivial change; I don't see what's to moan about.



actually he's on the right track. this weapons system was broke for 2 dreads. CCP had 2 reasons to fix them. Now they have 1 less reason. Nag is all guns now so its not even on the table.


Switch phoenix to hybrids, give caldari AND minmatar full sp reimbursement for skills as these will be pulled off the market + cost of skill books and we can all walk away from this like the morning after and the beer goggles wore off. Phoenix pilot should have spent some quality time in a rokh, they should have large guns + support done to jsut drop those missile sp's into cap hybrids like its cool.

While normally I'd say ccp having the same ship reskinned is bad....I could live with phoenix being a shield tanked moros. As I'd want its same bonuses applied to it. 40-50% range (the usual 10% range per level caldari gun bonus) means jack crap on a dread.


Why phoenix as a missile platform needs to go. Because its always hit if in range ccp will always be conservative in velocity/radius calcs to keep balance with the gun dreads. I can if I choose to gimp the hell out a gun dread with tracking mods out the ass to nail decently large targets hard. TE/TC/etc work in siege even.

Key point is I gimp in some way the gun dread to get here. CCP will not have missiles that address its inability to hit a moving ship built into the missiles. The gunners would be going wtf....I have to run mods for this ccp, what gives?

Turelus
Utassi Security
#36 - 2013-08-27 17:19:52 UTC
I'm going to bump this thread because after a debate today I took the time to actually ran the numbers.

The missile damage calculation I used: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=238271#post238271
Should the above information be incorrect someone please correct it/me and I will take another look at the numbers.

My calculations: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuqbRzsXbUqKdGI2bTRKcERpclhka0ZTRjM0S2pxQmc#gid=0
Phoenix with all skills five vs an unfit Nidhogger all skills five and moving at max speed.

If the maths is correct the Phoenix will lose close to 50% of its damage just because the carrier is moving, correct me if I am wrong but none of the other Dreadnoughts suffer a penalty that high vs moving capital ship. In fact they can bit fit to track so well they even strike Battleships with assistance.

Other issues although not as demoralising as the one just listed are the fact missiles take time to reach their target and in the case of Citdael missiles this is sad to see and that the DPS can be reduced to zero with a smartbomb BS and good timing.

I know CCP are not looking at capital ships until everything else is balanced but do we (the Caldari fans) have to really wait the potential two years that would take with a ship which under performs so much you're not taken seriously in any capital fleet.

/endrant

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#37 - 2013-08-27 17:36:41 UTC
The problem is that missiles don't miss, they just run out of range.

If you buff the cap missiles too much it becomes a game of insta-blap anything.

The easiest, and messiest way, is to change the phoenix to use hybrids, and give the moros different weapons (captal sentry drones?) to offset it.
Akimo Heth
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2013-08-27 18:22:09 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
The problem is that missiles don't miss, they just run out of range.

If you buff the cap missiles too much it becomes a game of insta-blap anything.

The easiest, and messiest way, is to change the phoenix to use hybrids, and give the moros different weapons (captal sentry drones?) to offset it.


insta-blap? Only if you don't count the nontrivial travel time of the missiles.
Akimo Heth
State War Academy
Caldari State
#39 - 2013-08-27 18:23:16 UTC
General Guardian wrote:
Well, in one very unlikely (but possible) way. Citadel missiles COULD be considered way overpowered. Although for this to occur there would have to be some major shenanigans involved.

Let's say your Citadel torpedo thas a max range of 65km and rate of fire is 13 seconds.
Total alpha we can average at 140k for this example.

If by some bizarre turn of events you got starbursted or super bumped towards a target from max range at roughly the same speed as your torps (vicinity of 1750m/s?), you would arrive on top of your target at the same time as your first 2 volleys to hit, and 2 seconds before the 3rd volley hits.

This is roughly 420k damage in the space of 3 seconds. Or 140k dps.

This isn't possible with turrets.

:D


Its only 3 seconds if you don't count that you fired your first volley 13 seconds before the 2nd in the dps calculation.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2013-08-27 21:21:09 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
The problem is that missiles don't miss, they just run out of range.

If you buff the cap missiles too much it becomes a game of insta-blap anything.

The easiest, and messiest way, is to change the phoenix to use hybrids, and give the moros different weapons (capital sentry drones?) to offset it.


Well you can always have two ships use hybrids. But it seems unfair to caldari missile pilots that train all the way down the missile skill line to not be able to train capital stuff like everyone else. Missiles can still be smart-bombed even if you boost the hp (it would just take more people, eliminating the easiness of it) What annoys me is that fozzie has even admitted that the phoenix is underpowered but has not addressed it. It's not as though this is some basic frig; this is the endgame missile boat that cost 3 bill after fitting. Shouldn't they at least TRY to buff the citadel missiles?

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.