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Balancing Feedback: New Tech2 modules

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ohshitohshitohshit
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2011-11-10 22:44:37 UTC
I agree, making command bonusses on grid only will hurt roaming gangs way more than locals, which would be bad
Sigras
Conglomo
#82 - 2011-11-10 22:59:03 UTC
how exactly does making command ships need to be on grid hurt roamers more than locals? As a local I can no longer have all 4 bonuses active from two ships sitting in a POS, they now need to be on grid, whereas if a roamer wants to bring along a command ship, its going to jump the gate with the rest of the fleet anyway . . .
Amsterdam Conversations
Doomheim
#83 - 2011-11-10 23:43:19 UTC
Sigras wrote:
how exactly does making command ships need to be on grid hurt roamers more than locals? As a local I can no longer have all 4 bonuses active from two ships sitting in a POS, they now need to be on grid, whereas if a roamer wants to bring along a command ship, its going to jump the gate with the rest of the fleet anyway . . .

Wow.

You realize locals are the ones considered blobbing the hell out of roamers?

I'm part of a little corp that usually gets between 7-12 pilots into a fleet maybe twice a week, one of them being a Loki link alt. Honestly, without this Loki link alt, 90% of our fights would have totally gone down the shitter.

It's virtually impossible to fight 4-5 times outnumbered (or more, we had that) without a Loki link alt, unless you want to get your whole fleet trashed. As good as Cynabals and Vagabonds are, a single Huginn will rip them out of the gang and hold them down for the 30 or so other ships to kill them.

Flying with RF points is hard and expensive enough when countless BS have heavy neuts on, engaging with T2 points without bonuses is virtually impossible. **** will just warp off before you can kill it.

I totally agree though that T3 bonuses are completely broken and out of balance. Cloaky nullified quadruple 5% bonus booster for 450 mil better than a 200m command ship that can't really do anything but be worse at giving bonuses as a T3, it's just wrong.
Sigras
Conglomo
#84 - 2011-11-11 00:21:49 UTC
wow . . . cloak + nulli + warfare link bonuses . . . i never considered that . . . that is totally overpowered . . . which is another reason why bonuses NEED to come from ships on grid, because that is totally overpowered.

Think about it objectively, if all boosting ships needed to be on grid, then you would really have a fair balance between T3 and command ships
Alsyth
#85 - 2011-11-11 01:22:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Alsyth
Sigras wrote:
Think about it objectively, if all boosting ships needed to be on grid, then you would really have a fair balance between T3 and command ships


This.
Fleet CS : BIG tank, 3 good links, bad dps.
T3 : a single very good link link, many different possible fits (big tank, nano, snipe HML...)
Field CS : cheaper than T3, usually more dps and/or tank, a single bad link if it fits. (Nighthawk and Astarte, really bad when compared to their T3 counterpart and can't fit a link properly...)




I don't know how someone could honestly think that off grid booster help roamers (having to bring these ships through every system when you roam ? Be attentive to them because they could get probed in their safespot by a local prober, no bonus when the booster warp....) more than locals with 2 T3s (or a T3 and a CS) at a POS as FC/WC.
ohshitohshitohshit
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2011-11-11 02:10:34 UTC
Alsyth wrote:


I don't know how someone could honestly think that off grid booster help roamers (having to bring these ships through every system when you roam ? Be attentive to them because they could get probed in their safespot by a local prober, no bonus when the booster warp....) more than locals with 2 T3s (or a T3 and a CS) at a POS as FC/WC.


This is just plain stupid.
Demkaio
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2011-11-11 04:37:51 UTC
What about having offgrid boosting being half as effective, while on grid gives the full bonuses?
Apollo Gabriel
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#88 - 2011-11-11 04:47:50 UTC
Demkaio wrote:
What about having offgrid boosting being half as effective, while on grid gives the full bonuses?


NO.

Look you get a magical bonus already, you gotta be near the gagitabuku generator to get it.
Always ... Never ... Forget to check your references.   Peace out Zulu! Hope you land well!
Sigras
Conglomo
#89 - 2011-11-11 05:16:46 UTC
ohshitohshitohshit wrote:
Alsyth wrote:
I don't know how someone could honestly think that off grid booster help roamers (having to bring these ships through every system when you roam ? Be attentive to them because they could get probed in their safespot by a local prober, no bonus when the booster warp....) more than locals with 2 T3s (or a T3 and a CS) at a POS as FC/WC.


This is just plain stupid.

I cant believe this needs to be said . . . . QUALIFY YOUR STATEMENTS PLEASE

saying something is wrong or stupid without providing a reason why is both wrong and stupid because it provides no insight into why the idea is either wrong or stupid . . .

(notice i explained why youre stupid)
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#90 - 2011-11-11 06:49:01 UTC
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
I don't like that the T2 Modules have the same primary stats as faction modules. Examples are Probe Launchers and Omni. Tracking Link- Drone Upgrades.

Please nerf the T2 stats a bit or boost the stats of faction modules.


No way. Do Not! I Repeat Don Not reduce the T2 stats. There are alot of T2 modules and Faction modules already in the game with the same primary stats as each other already. One of the primary traits of alot of Faction modules is not to out right preform there T2 counter part but to have Reduced fiting cost and still have T2 effectiveness. Now if that means that CCP needs to go back and lower the fiting cost of Sister Probs and OLT-Drone Upgrades for faction modules thats ok. If you mean to go and inc the faction modules main effect thats even better.

But Do Not reduces the effectiveness of T2 Modules just to make faction modules look better.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.
Sigras
Conglomo
#91 - 2011-11-11 07:53:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigras
also the faction mods arent as skill intensive . . .

See faction guns (not missile launchers)
freed0m rus
Iris Covenant
The Gorgon Empire
#92 - 2011-11-11 12:28:48 UTC
T2 Triage module is quite useless, compared to its T1 version. Prolly it should receive 5 to 10% rep/remote rep bonuses?
Psihius
Perkone
Caldari State
#93 - 2011-11-11 12:43:04 UTC
As on CS ships and T3.
Really, a fight-ready bonus T3 ship is a ship carrying one single damn link. Any T3 ship wearing more than 1 gang link is a piece of crap that will be dead in seconds if it warps in - it has nor tank, nor DPS - it's just out of CPU to fit anything useful.
Try fitting the Vulture for example. Hell, that machine is a beast - tanks the hell of damage, has some DPS that is actually helpful, gives bonuses of 3 links and in any case is a combat ready ship.
T3 was bogus then it was impossible to scan them down. Now you have to choose - make it near unscannable and burn on AB/MWD aligned to some object and hope enemies can't/dont have time/you spot the tacklers in time or fit some tank - but ether was you stay off grid because it is not a combat ship - it's a turkey in a shooting range. And it will be definitively an alt in a second window because no one wan't to fly it and sit on a spot. Well, it could be the scanner, but again - he can't cloak because of the gang links.
So, personally, I don't think it's bad.

As on subject of a T3 on a POS - people, please! You came to their home, they live there, it's kind'a their territory. They will and should have advantages when they defend their system! You do the same for your home, aren't you?
Be smart, lure them out of the system. Kill the bonus ship when it jumps through the stargate if it dares (it probably will stay on the POS or change ship to a CS).
The same way a CS can stay at the POS, give bonuses and never leave the POS. Gank links give bonuses to all pilots in a system and it's perfectly fine.
What if your fleet has to split - where the CS should go? Or your wing commander stays at one position and your squad warps off to do some other things - now you have only squad commander bonuses because the link Fleet Commander -> Wing Commander -> Squad Commander is broken.
Alsyth
#94 - 2011-11-11 13:21:12 UTC
Psihius
[b wrote:
As on subject of a T3 on a POS - people, please! You came to their home, they live there, it's kind'a their territory. They will and should have advantages when they defend their system! You do the same for your home, aren't you?[/b]


They already have :
- a POS to hide in where we can't go because of guns
- the possibility to reship at station each time they lose a ship
- the possibility to reship and fly the perfect counter to us, be it capital remote if you want
- safespots everywhere it matters
- cloaked alts on gates and nearby systems to know where we are immediatly, and choose their ships accordingly
- usually they have alts ready to probe us with perfect skills/ship in no time


It's more than enough.


We roamers, on the other side :
- don't have any POSes to hide in
- can't reship at all when we lose a ship, or when we'd like to change ships because of our opponents
- don't have that much safespots in systems we don't roam often (sometimes no safespots at all)
- usually in small roaming gangs (5-20) we don't have enough scouts to have a vision on -every- nearby system
- when we have a prober (not always the case) his job is more difficult than it is for locals, and if he wants to be useful in the fight, he won't have a Virtued Covops.
Psihius
Perkone
Caldari State
#95 - 2011-11-11 16:04:20 UTC
Alsyth wrote:
Psihius
[b wrote:
As on subject of a T3 on a POS - people, please! You came to their home, they live there, it's kind'a their territory. They will and should have advantages when they defend their system! You do the same for your home, aren't you?[/b]


They already have :
- a POS to hide in where we can't go because of guns
- the possibility to reship at station each time they lose a ship
- the possibility to reship and fly the perfect counter to us, be it capital remote if you want
- safespots everywhere it matters
- cloaked alts on gates and nearby systems to know where we are immediatly, and choose their ships accordingly
- usually they have alts ready to probe us with perfect skills/ship in no time


It's more than enough.


We roamers, on the other side :
- don't have any POSes to hide in
- can't reship at all when we lose a ship, or when we'd like to change ships because of our opponents
- don't have that much safespots in systems we don't roam often (sometimes no safespots at all)
- usually in small roaming gangs (5-20) we don't have enough scouts to have a vision on -every- nearby system
- when we have a prober (not always the case) his job is more difficult than it is for locals, and if he wants to be useful in the fight, he won't have a Virtued Covops.

You are, well, roaming. If you find that system inhabitants have fortified their position - move over or risk taking them on. Roaming, as I envision it, takes targets of opportunity or makes hit & run moves.
If you think like that - than when your roaming enters the system the game has to remove all POS, stations, ganglink bonuses and so on. WAKE UP!. You are:
1. In hostile space
2. Friends of the inhabitants probably live near by anyway.
3. It's their territory - they have intel and scouts any way.
4. So, they have a pos or station with ships ready - what a surprise for you!

Dammit, I read this ganglink bonus whine and one thing comes to mind: a bunch of space whines who want to PvP on their own terms when they go to hostile space. I have an impression that if it was possible, you would make that when you enter system - stations deny docking to everyone and POS'es bump all pilots out of their force fields.

You are roamers, you chose to have a light, agile and fast gang - use it. Hit fast and go your way. If you want a good battle - bring battleships for gods sake and not that nano-gay-style-fleet that can't break a gang that has a bonus giving ship in the system.
Sigras
Conglomo
#96 - 2011-11-11 18:53:39 UTC
freed0m rus wrote:
T2 Triage module is quite useless, compared to its T1 version. Prolly it should receive 5 to 10% rep/remote rep bonuses?

hello? less fuel usage calling . . . .
Alsyth
#97 - 2011-11-11 19:01:42 UTC
Psihius wrote:

You are, well, roaming. If you find that system inhabitants have fortified their position - move over or risk taking them on. Roaming, as I envision it, takes targets of opportunity or makes hit & run moves.
If you think like that - than when your roaming enters the system the game has to remove all POS, stations, ganglink bonuses and so on. WAKE UP!. You are:
1. In hostile space
2. Friends of the inhabitants probably live near by anyway.
3. It's their territory - they have intel and scouts any way.
4. So, they have a pos or station with ships ready - what a surprise for you!

Dammit, I read this ganglink bonus whine and one thing comes to mind: a bunch of space whines who want to PvP on their own terms when they go to hostile space. I have an impression that if it was possible, you would make that when you enter system - stations deny docking to everyone and POS'es bump all pilots out of their force fields.

You are roamers, you chose to have a light, agile and fast gang - use it. Hit fast and go your way. If you want a good battle - bring battleships for gods sake and not that nano-gay-style-fleet that can't break a gang that has a bonus giving ship in the system.



You might want to read my post again. I never asked for removal of POSes, or to nerf the ability of locals to reship or whatever.

I'm just saying that without off grid boosters in a POS, locals wouldn't be "weak" compared to roamers, they still have LOTS of advantages over them, and I'm fine with these advantages, except for the off grid booster which is probably the most unfair
one.

Getting rid of it would greatly improve pvp in my opinion, while nerfing god-mode locals. Being able to hide in a POS or reship is not god-mode, it's taking advantage of your environment, which is normal for locals.
On the other hand, full ganglinked (and out of sight, unkillable) loki+legion/tengu (or worse : titans) is god-mode and gives unfair advantage in any fight which occurs in this system.


As for your old stereotypes, you can forget them, really, as far as lowsec pvp is concerned, locals are the nano-style-fleets these days, with loki in a POS and everything from dramiels to cynabal to mach to rapier to tengu to lachesis to loki to curses nanoed to hell. This or carriers repping BSs.
Lili Lu
#98 - 2011-11-11 20:39:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
All the wimpy nullifed eccm'd cloaky whatever T3 alts can rest easy. There has not been one CCP response in this thread I think. They probably aren't monitoring it and will remain yet again stupidly unaware of the harm they did to command ships (and HACs, Recons to a lesser extent) with the overdone T3 subsytems, command in particular. They won't even consider nerfing T3 command buff % or implementing on-grid only boosting as a way to restore command ships Evil

As to the new tech II modules in general I doubt CCP really have any intention to adjust what they already have plopped on sisi and soon these modules will be on tranquility unaltered.Roll

At least the new nebulas are pretty.Straight And will get prettier, because there dev responses there.
Hamatitio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#99 - 2011-11-12 00:04:44 UTC
In this post: more T2 triage module whining. :D

It definitely needs a buff. More rep amount isnt the answer, I'd like to see either a -20% capacitor recharge time bonus, less cap required for RR Modules, something crazy like +5 drones allowed (fighters in triage, this is madness!)
AMXZAKU
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2011-11-12 03:22:47 UTC
restricting command links to ongrid would just be plain ******** and render T3 command ships entirely useless. Switching t3 commad bonusses with the CS bonusse so the CS have an advantage there would be okay though