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What is wrong with wormhole space?

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Author
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Stay Feral
#81 - 2013-08-09 17:32:50 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
Infinite Force wrote:
Ya Huei wrote:
Ice belts in w-space. I would much rather AFK-mine or run ice mining ops so that I don't have to freighter in that junk.
POS refineries that aren't so rediculously inefficient.

Go here .. Support.. :)


There's an idea... bring POS refineries up to 90-95% efficiency.
Don't tie them to skills, that would require extra coding, and don't give them 100%. Give them a high enough refining rate (75% is utter crap) that they will be viable in places where stations aren't available, but don't make them better than stations (its less efficient to build at POSs, so it shouldn't be as efficient to refine at POSs, however the current refinery rates are so low they simply aren't used).

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#82 - 2013-08-09 17:40:54 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Infinite Force wrote:
Ya Huei wrote:
Ice belts in w-space. I would much rather AFK-mine or run ice mining ops so that I don't have to freighter in that junk.
POS refineries that aren't so rediculously inefficient.

Go here .. Support.. :)


There's an idea... bring POS refineries up to 90-95% efficiency.
Don't tie them to skills, that would require extra coding, and don't give them 100%. Give them a high enough refining rate (75% is utter crap) that they will be viable in places where stations aren't available, but don't make them better than stations (its less efficient to build at POSs, so it shouldn't be as efficient to refine at POSs, however the current refinery rates are so low they simply aren't used).



I dumped this idea in his thread. It is also a "easy fix"

Set the yield of breaking down "compressed ores" to 100% in the POS refineries.

Can keep the normal ore processing at 75%, but if you want 100%, you'll have to build/fly/operate a Rorqual.

So basically it causes your first major build to be a Rorqual, then subsequent builds become somewhat easier as you can compress your ore, then reprocess it in the refinery to get the 100%.

That should be the easiest fix.

-- include if "compressed", reprocess 100%.

Yaay!!!!

Infinite Force
#83 - 2013-08-09 18:26:33 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Infinite Force wrote:
Ya Huei wrote:
Ice belts in w-space. I would much rather AFK-mine or run ice mining ops so that I don't have to freighter in that junk.
POS refineries that aren't so rediculously inefficient.

Go here .. Support.. :)


There's an idea... bring POS refineries up to 90-95% efficiency.
Don't tie them to skills, that would require extra coding, and don't give them 100%. Give them a high enough refining rate (75% is utter crap) that they will be viable in places where stations aren't available, but don't make them better than stations (its less efficient to build at POSs, so it shouldn't be as efficient to refine at POSs, however the current refinery rates are so low they simply aren't used).



I dumped this idea in his thread. It is also a "easy fix"

Set the yield of breaking down "compressed ores" to 100% in the POS refineries.

Can keep the normal ore processing at 75%, but if you want 100%, you'll have to build/fly/operate a Rorqual.

So basically it causes your first major build to be a Rorqual, then subsequent builds become somewhat easier as you can compress your ore, then reprocess it in the refinery to get the 100%.

That should be the easiest fix.

-- include if "compressed", reprocess 100%.

Given the POS overhaul, the ultimate refining changes will most likely be 100% and act just like an NPC Station / Player Outpost since it simplifies the overall codebase. Without know exactly what code is there currently (as no dev has ever commented on it that I'm aware of), I would assume it's already skill based, just capped at 75%.

Most alliances already have some sort of "you shall refine in station" policy and they'll always be "less-efficient" than a station since you can refine instantly in a station - and you're not just limited to Ore. The POS module will always have a time value associated with it under the current POS mechanics.

Building at a POS is usually the same as a station and in the case of T3's, the only place where where subs & hulls can be made.

I could get behind a "you must compress the Ore first" - definately an interesting idea/addition. Refining @ 100% would be a bit like ice refining @ a POS. No skill check? and 100%.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

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Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#84 - 2013-08-09 18:49:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
I agree with you Infinite, except that the Rorqual pilot is your skill check. And with most stations, people hand it over to the "Refiner dude" who refines it.

Its a simple answer to an annoying problem.

That is pos specific, which really effects all POS (it just affects us more cause we live in wormholes with no easy logistics route).

The thing is that none of us want wormholes to turn into the whole mess nullsec blob space cartel mania is.

We need some slight adjustments, tweaks, and some sustained goals for wormhole space. We don't need much, we just want some targets :-).

There are a few options, sleeper super escalations. Lets say a sleeper rarespawn shows up, taunts you and flies off, opening a new wormhole, follow him, he opens a 2nd, follow him again, opens a 3rd. Now you have a chain of possible people chasing you while you chase this sleeper idiot. They'd have to drop something worth the chase though.

You may wind up in kspace through this guy who creates wormholes.

You now have more random wormholes, and a goal of killing the guy who created the wormholes, and ontop of it, the addition of pvp cause you might have rolled into someone's home.

What we want is some randomness. Some crazy thing to happen that causes a bunch of events which might screw us up, or make it fun. People want more random connections, I want connections that people want to jump into, even recklessly sometimes, trying to chase after a dream, and maybe killing someone in the process (or dying themselves).

It would have to be small group oriented. The type of "sleeper running mob" would be able to dictate the mass of the hole, which would cause its own restrictions on the group that could enter (and how they would return).

Randomness, coolness, and a bit of fear.

Thats wormhole space.

Yaay!!!!

PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#85 - 2013-08-09 19:34:59 UTC
J#### identifiers enable too-easy cataloging and mapping of w-space

Mass, Wormhole colors, static triggers on sites, static WH connections, etc. are all systems that are far too easily gamed, making wormholes far more predictable and safe to explore than they should be.

Remove all identifying marks from w-space outside of visuals for system effects.
Randomize escalation conditions, sleeper types/density in sites, remove static "trigger mobs"
Add potential ice belt spawns to allow independant wormhole operations.
Remove all statics.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#86 - 2013-08-09 19:49:44 UTC
More randomness to signatures, connections.

Better POS system:
-Security
-Management
-Refining
-"T3 Sub Swapping"
-Clone swapping (not jumping)

Other types of exploration content (see DSP link in sig)

Ability to remove abandoned POS and structures without having to grind through millions of EHP

More varied system effects

New uses of sleeper "junk" loot (basically everything besides ribbons) that get used in WH production

Randomly (rare!!) spawning ICE might be pretty neat

Ore sites moved back to sigs

More useful loot from Data/Relic sites as the overwhelming majority of it is worthless junk

Sleepers periodically attacking POS/POCO etc

Sleepers periodically "interdicting" opened wh connections

Random (rare) chances for w-space escalations

Sleeper modules (like deadspace/officer perhaps)
--------------------------------



This is my favorite type of EVE gameplay. It's got such amazing potential. Hopefully CCP begins to improve/expand it again since it's not been touched since it was introduced.

I'm right behind you

Bradford Clear
West Indian Dope Smoking Team
The Big Blue
#87 - 2013-08-09 19:50:44 UTC
More classes of wormholes would be nice.
Variability with some new effects in certain wormholes would also be cool.
More capital escalation waves.
Ore sites should be scannable not warp able.
The mini games in relic and data sites are annoying/confusing.
Also more people in C6/C5 space. It seems as the past year has gone. More and more people are starting to leave the higher classes.
Thanks Chitsa!
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Sassums
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#88 - 2013-08-09 20:55:00 UTC
Just a few things that bug me...



  • The inability to change T3 subsystems

  • The loot drop bug displayed when blowing up an SMA (This needs to be fixed urgently)

  • XLSMA accessible outside the POS shields


Changes:


  • Being able to swap ships anywhere in the POS shield like the CHA

  • More Corp/POS permissions. Corp and POS permissions need a straight overhaul, current system is unacceptable at best. Corp, Fuelbase Tech, and config starbaes equip do not provide enough security.
Kynric
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#89 - 2013-08-09 22:04:04 UTC
A personal SMA would be a big help. We have personnal storage for goods which protect the ammo from thieves, but nothing to protect the really valuable ships.

Enabling more doctrines would be nice as well. Perhaps a battleship class device/trinket/object carried in cargo could be invented that would allow battleships (and only battleships it simply would not do anything for a carrier) to be less damaging to the wormhole. Or perhaps a device or fleet effect that increases the distance you will be spit out of the hole on the far side. I dont want to see t3s nerfed, instead lets have some technology that allows other fleet comps to be competive.

Wormhole are mostly very good so large changes represent more risk to something great than possible reward with improvement.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#90 - 2013-08-10 10:11:20 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:


Basically other options are available, but they aren't as forgiving as T3 doctrines are.


Mikey man that is exactly what I said. Hence the call for a small nerf.

.

corbexx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2013-08-10 12:51:40 UTC
sma and cha pos mods to show whats inside on the kill mail
Chitsa Jason
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#92 - 2013-08-10 14:31:28 UTC
corbexx wrote:
sma and cha pos mods to show whats inside on the kill mail



Corbexx Im not sure if you can read but: "If you list your personal annoyance or bug or issue please also post the suggested fix and its possible impact (good or bad). "

Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me

corbexx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#93 - 2013-08-10 14:54:42 UTC
Chitsa Jason wrote:
corbexx wrote:
sma and cha pos mods to show whats inside on the kill mail



Corbexx Im not sure if you can read but: "If you list your personal annoyance or bug or issue please also post the suggested fix and its possible impact (good or bad). "



ok well suggested fix would be to show whats in them on kill mails like carrier/orca kills.

As for impact i really doubt it will have any these things die anyway all it will do is show what people had left lying about
Nix Anteris
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#94 - 2013-08-10 15:15:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Nix Anteris
The main problem with W-Space is the inhabitants, no real fix for that though.

Going to be repeating a lot of things, but that's only to emphasise the fact more people think they are issues, rather than the fact I haven't read past page 1 of this thread...

  • Issue: As mentioned, SMA and XLSMA need to drop ships. This is the largest conflict driver in w-space (being able to collect shinys for your efforts)
  • Fix: Allow ships to once again drop from exploding SMAs
  • Impact: There will be an increase in system-sieges again.

  • Issue: T3s still unable to change subsystems at a POS, this was promised and is long overdue.
  • Fix: Need some spiffing new interface to allow subsystem hotswappery.
  • Impact: Worldwide w-space player mexican wave, earth shifts out of orbit, human race wiped out.

  • Issue: We don't have stations (and we don't want them), but we want to stop people stealing our boats.
  • Fix: Personal SMAs
  • Impact: Less fun, but more subscriptions retained.

  • Issue: People whine about black holes
  • Fix: Nothing, its OK to have undesirable effects, and it makes the desirable ones more coveted. Want my effect? Come fight me bro.
  • Impact: Nothing will change

  • Issue: W-space Data/Relic sites are a bit lack luster
  • Fix: Loot-table tweaks might be in order.
  • Impact: People will actually want to do data/relic sites.

  • Issue: Clicking the radial menu makes a radial menu pop up (massive issue!)
  • Fix: Clicking in the middle should make the scanner window pop up. Click+hold+drag should be for radial entry selection.
  • Impact: QOL will go up.

  • Issue: 3 probes 1 dot
  • Fix: 3 probes 2 dots
  • Impact: Less head scratching

  • Issue: Sometimes feels like there's nobody out here
  • Fix: More sporadic connections between busy systems?
  • Impact: People out looking for a fight (or trying to avoid a fight) will get surprise connections to each other

  • Issue: Bears want to be safe in w-space
  • Fix: Make wormholes connect instantly when spawned (lose the spawn when warped to mechanic)
  • Impact: People have to actually pay attention again

  • Issue: CCP reduced the session timer for wormholes when they changed it for gates
  • Fix: This was clearly a mistake, please bring back the long session timer for wormholes.
  • Impact: Scouts will need more clean pairs of pants on standby

  • Issue: Can't bump wormholes off grid anymore
  • Fix: Revert codebase to early-2010 (so I can do those cool overview hacks again too)
  • Impact: Nerdboner++; *snort*

  • Issue: Wormholes appear on the discovery scanner
  • Fix: Make people have to work for their signatures once again (but keep Gravi sites there, and add Gas sites too)
  • Impact: Wormholes will once again be dangerous, and unknown, (slightly)

  • Issue: Alliance can't access corp bookmarks
  • Fix: Alliance bookmarks seem REASONABLE right?
  • Impact: No more reliance on communal GSCs to trade BMs



So now some things I have been suggesting (mainly in private) for the last 3 years or so that aren't really addressing issues, but could enhance gameplay and/or the environment. Other people seem to be suggesting these too, but are definitely on the cool-to-have list.

* More progressive escalations. No more 6/8 + 6/8 - Make it 6, 8, 12, 20, 36... - Rewards for risk. This will probably result in only 3/x escalation waves being run for the majority of people causing a slight drop in th e ISK made from escalation sites. For those who are prepared to take the risk of 20+ Sleepless Guardians focusing them, they will gain an extra reward for a greatly increased risk (from both sleepers and players)

* Sleepers on wormholes. Same as Pirates on gates. This adds a bit of danger for small gangs and solo haulers without scouts; we like it when people travel with friends. It also adds wrecks on d-scan as an indicator of recent activity, and adds something to do while camping.

* Sleepers get ANGRY when they build up in a system. That POS looks like easymode when there's 50 sites of sleeper drones with nothing better to do. I bet they could take that. - On the will-probably-never-happen-but-worth-mentioning-AGAIN list. Lets have angry sleepers forming up and attacking the people who really don't belong in their system.

* All we got from sleepers was T3 ships? Really? - We've been studying them for nearly 4 years now, it would be nice if we could get some officer-quality (rare spawn) sleeper NPCs with appropriate quality modules dropping. Maybe some Sleeper POS mod BPCs?



Edit: Whatever happened to planetary ring + comet trail mining? Having to dodge roids to generate the cashflow could make mining a bit less dull... Since comet trails could potentially contain a buttload of ice, could also be a way to introduce ice to w-space. (But lets make sure that it's a special kind of ice, maybe for fuelling sleeper technology based POS, right?)
Nix Anteris
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#95 - 2013-08-10 15:28:59 UTC
PopeUrban wrote:
Remove all identifying marks from w-space outside of visuals for system effects.
Remove all statics.

A man after my own heart. +1.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#96 - 2013-08-10 16:25:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
Chris Winter wrote:
Cosmic Scanner*Big One
Static Wormholes do not connect to the k162 side until warped to, keeping farmers fairly isolated and "safe" during site running. Make wormholes always automatically connect without anyone needing to scan and initiate warp to the static [:) wrote:

Congratulations, you just single-handedly killed solo and small group PvE in wormholes.

Terrible idea.


Put it in verge of collapse and you're done......



A lot of people agree that the main issue is the high predictability of W-space. We don't agree however on what should be predictable and what shouldn't.

Would be cool, as said before, to remove all statics, remplace them with random connexions, and play with the probabilities so that there are roughly the same numbers of connexions as if each system had two statics. => Less predictability for encounters between wormholers.

However, I'm not for adding more randomness to mass and time => Eve is a game where knowledge is the key. There must remain a way for the persons who want knowledge to be able to get it. The hacking minigame just demonstrated how stupid it is to win or loose randomly even with perfect skills + fit + good knowledge of the minigame.

Also, what do you think about random system anomalies ? Changing at DT after a random number of days between one and seven. With something like 25% chance of not getting an anomaly.

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Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

ExookiZ
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#97 - 2013-08-10 17:23:04 UTC
Im just gonna lay out my thoughts and let the whining begin.

1. Change up the statics. Possibly have them change every so often? if people really dont want to live in a system with a static X theyll move, moving promotes conflict over a new system. Or possibly have them just be random, certainly a pain at times but it would be interesting to close our C5, and a C3 opens to **** and pillage.

2. Add occasional larger mass WHs from upper Whs/Low/Null into the lower ones. I think the isk/risk is ridiculously screwed up in some of the lower systems. Ive seen class 2s with 30+ indy towers making billions a day with virtually no risk, sure i can bring a BC fleet in and bash them down but we all know thats boring as hell, and the time/Loot reward is awful. Allowing us to get a lucky Wh and bring a dread in would allow these "isk sanctuaries" to be significatly riskier. If i have to Sd my dread after i dont care. There is plenty of conflict to be unleashed if only some lower class Whs wouldnt be such a task just to siege. Even with the current POS issues our best fights are often escalations from lighting someone's pos on fire.

3. More randomization to effects would be interesting, allow them to fluctuate? The pulsar is weak today, as a result bonuses applied arent as powerful...or even different. Some of the things we take for granted would amke it a lot spicier if theyw erent so static. What happens when a corp who relies on takign advantage of their system effect gets into a brawl and suddenly their effect weakens/changes?

4. We dont need more wormholes, there are plenty of empty ones. All the whining about big scary C5/C6 Wh entities needs to stop. Getting larger and better organized is the way Eve works. If your unwilling to either get better at eve, get friends, or grow your corproation than perhaps your playing the wrong game. and perhaps you should subscribe to Hello kitty Online adventure.

As a leader of a large C6 corporation we do not go out of our way to bully or stop you from moving up, in fact we encourage it. The horror stories about people moving into a c5/c6 and getting evicted within a month are probably because all theyd id was farm sites and log off. I suspect I can speak for all the C5/C6 corps in saying we would LOVE it if there were more of you up here. As long as your not just here to RMT isk, we have enough of those as is.

5. Allowing the K162 to spawn regardless of warping/scanning will help eliminate isolated farming as well as promoting conflict. Allowing more pathways for me to find peopel to kill/kill me promotes conflict and in general fun.

6. "Randomizing" Wh mass is dumb and does not help anything besides pissing people off when they get stuck on the wrong side of the wormhole. Yes its random, yes its risky but it in no way really promotes fun. I would avoid going down that path ( and CCP said they wont at FF).

7. Insert all the POS/Corp role stuff here. ...because itll make me want to play eve as a CEO.

some of my cents

Event Organizer of EVE North East

Gabba Ger
Doomheim
#98 - 2013-08-10 18:19:56 UTC

- POS related problems
SMA access management options are terrible. It is virtually impossible to protect corporation or player assets from theft without locking everyone out.
Solution: Give us tabs for SMAs like they exist for Hangars with similar access management options. And no, the new hangars and planed SMAs won’t solve that issue. For instance, it is perfectly normal to borrow items and ships. With these hangars/planed SMAs you can’t even borrow stuff from your alt!

- general balance issues
Living in a C4 (C3 static) for 2 years now I must say they are not as bad as people make them look. IMHO they work as WH should work: They provide enough income for small groups to get started. Bigger groups (more than 5 people) need to expose themselves to provide enough income, e.g. farming the statics/k162s.
This all changes if you move to C5+ class WH. You never have to leave your WH for income again ever. The real problem is the huge gap of income that can be generated without exposing a PvE fleet between C4s (and lower class) and higher class wormholes: C4 sites yield ~100 mil/site and spawn at a rate of ~1 site/day for us, C5/C6 yield ~1 bil/site and can be farmed for 4 days. That’s 700mil/week compared to ~12000 mil/week from generated from “safe” home systems ratting and that is a very conservative estimation.
I run C6 sites about twice a week and I am happy with the income but is that what WHs should be like? Capital escalation carebearing generates almost zero content and puts the power level of C5+ guys so much above everyone else living in WHs that you will rarely ever get good fights between these groups. This is a tough nut to crack and the solutions I suggest here are from my limited point of view.

Possible solution:
a) Remove a huge number of C5s and some C6s so there is actually an other reason than “We do it because we can.” to evict people. Intention: Balance risk/reward

b) Remove/nerf capital escalation farming and buff the number of waves. Intention: Make farming in C5+ non home systems lot more appealing.


- C4 related issus
a) Data and Relic sites that should trigger spawns after accessing containers don’t trigger additional sleeper waves. In general I think the amount cans should be reduced and the value/can should be increased.

- Alliance bookmarks are needed!
Bjurn Akely
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2013-08-10 20:29:49 UTC
The Discovery Scanner debacle... Primarily new sigs showing up instantly. It's really a other type of local and it means a lot less fights.

Well spoken here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=255597
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2013-08-10 20:56:55 UTC
Altrue wrote:
Chris Winter wrote:
Cosmic Scanner*Big One
Static Wormholes do not connect to the k162 side until warped to, keeping farmers fairly isolated and "safe" during site running. Make wormholes always automatically connect without anyone needing to scan and initiate warp to the static [:) wrote:

Congratulations, you just single-handedly killed solo and small group PvE in wormholes.

Terrible idea.


Put it in verge of collapse and you're done......



A lot of people agree that the main issue is the high predictability of W-space. We don't agree however on what should be predictable and what shouldn't.

Would be cool, as said before, to remove all statics, remplace them with random connexions, and play with the probabilities so that there are roughly the same numbers of connexions as if each system had two statics. => Less predictability for encounters between wormholers.

However, I'm not for adding more randomness to mass and time => Eve is a game where knowledge is the key. There must remain a way for the persons who want knowledge to be able to get it. The hacking minigame just demonstrated how stupid it is to win or loose randomly even with perfect skills + fit + good knowledge of the minigame.

Also, what do you think about random system anomalies ? Changing at DT after a random number of days between one and seven. With something like 25% chance of not getting an anomaly.


It's amazing how I always agree with you! <3

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.