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[Odyssey 1.1] Jump Clone skills *Updated with Advanced Infomorph Psychology*

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#461 - 2013-08-09 21:14:33 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Another new skill reduces the jump clone timer by 1 hour per level almost eliminating that.

That doesn't in any way address the core design issue. It just clumsily tries to hide it behind a thin veil of pointless busywork.

You address the core design issue by fixing the core design issue. You don't address it by leaving it in the game and adding in a lame excuse not to fix it.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#462 - 2013-08-09 21:16:23 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Another new skill reduces the jump clone timer by 1 hour per level almost eliminating that.

That doesn't in any way address the core design issue. It just clumsily tries to hide it behind a thin veil of pointless busywork.

You address the core design issue by fixing the core design issue. You don't address it by leaving it in the game and adding in a lame excuse not to fix it.
Common Sense skillbook hasn't been injected at CCP yet, Tippia.

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Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#463 - 2013-08-09 21:18:43 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Another new skill reduces the jump clone timer by 1 hour per level almost eliminating that.

That doesn't in any way address the core design issue. It just clumsily tries to hide it behind a thin veil of pointless busywork.

You address the core design issue by fixing the core design issue. You don't address it by leaving it in the game and adding in a lame excuse not to fix it.

Well said.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#464 - 2013-08-09 22:52:29 UTC
More skills at high costs is just more old player bias..

Instead of all these one time only isk sinks it might be worth considering something a bit more permanent..

Make cloning isk sink based, make cost based on clone SP and range, cost drops over time based on skill and standing.

Simple and much more useful in general.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#465 - 2013-08-09 23:33:03 UTC
Caleb Ayrania wrote:
More skills at high costs is just more old player bias..

Instead of all these one time only isk sinks it might be worth considering something a bit more permanent..

Make cloning isk sink based, make cost based on clone SP and range, cost drops over time based on skill and standing.

Simple and much more useful in general.


The "old players" don't want this skill so pipe down with the 'Bittervets just want more' and aren't you included in the "old players" category Mr 2003? Or was this a Character Bazaar buy? Any way, your comments aren't based on what the Dev Post is about so I'm wondering if you have any comments on them apart from splurging on the forums?

Just curious: Have you put your idea up on F&I forum for comments? I'm sure you'll get more of a directed discussion there if you did.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Nelly Uanos
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#466 - 2013-08-09 23:44:26 UTC
Finally thank god Rise!

About the skill vs direct game implementation, the **** I care how... just that it's going to exist made my mind EXPLODE! Big smile

Finally to all ungrateful whiny baby that jusk ask for more, you should all be banned from ever learning that skill on your character... Twisted
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#467 - 2013-08-09 23:44:38 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Caleb Ayrania wrote:
More skills at high costs is just more old player bias..

Instead of all these one time only isk sinks it might be worth considering something a bit more permanent..

Make cloning isk sink based, make cost based on clone SP and range, cost drops over time based on skill and standing.

Simple and much more useful in general.


The "old players" don't want this skill so pipe down with the 'Bittervets just want more' and aren't you included in the "old players" category Mr 2003? Or was this a Character Bazaar buy? Any way, your comments aren't based on what the Dev Post is about so I'm wondering if you have any comments on them apart from splurging on the forums?

Just curious: Have you put your idea up on F&I forum for comments? I'm sure you'll get more of a directed discussion there if you did.


I was pointing out that patching up a rather poorly aged clone mechanic is a bad choice..

If you dont understand the veteran bias you should not go straight to personal attacks. I know it might seem totally crazy that a player would actually prefer something that benefits the general community and not personal interests, but I am just strange that way.

I have posted many things in F&I in my days, and still occasionally do, but it makes more sense to actually comment directly on a game mechanic when its being looked at and rebalanced by the devs. Taking part in those threads are a rather good way to not only point out flaws and ideas, but also see of other players have similar issues with upcoming changes. FYI this was kinda what happened with the recent T1 Industrial changes. Even though it was stated that more changes would come in a later expansion..
Drew Li
Space Exploitation Inc
#468 - 2013-08-10 01:57:30 UTC
Didn't read through the entire thread so maybe I'm rehashing some ideas, but with the 2 additional skills I'd go a little further with the tweaks.

1) Multiple Clones per Station
Everyone hates accidentally destroying an expensive existing clone or hunting around for stations to park your current one. With the possibility of 10 clones with the Adv. Infomorph this will get even worse. It would be nice to have all the mindlinked clones at a station readily available to transfer into without jumping gates to do it.

2) Immediate Local Clone Jump
If you are docked with your clone you should be able to switch instantly, regardless of the time. This would allow all the guys with expensive clones to hop into something more suitable to their current task. Nobody wants to take a HG slave clone on a frigate roam. Same thing goes for boosters with different mindlinks. The timer would still apply to transferring to distant clones.
Debir Achen
Makiriemi Holdings
#469 - 2013-08-10 02:22:57 UTC
Drew Li wrote:
2) Immediate Local Clone Jump
If you are docked with your clone you should be able to switch instantly, regardless of the time. This would allow all the guys with expensive clones to hop into something more suitable to their current task. Nobody wants to take a HG slave clone on a frigate roam. Same thing goes for boosters with different mindlinks. The timer would still apply to transferring to distant clones.
Read between the lines from CCP: "no, we don't want to enable consequence-free implant swapping" (at least not without completely reviewing the entire system).

Seriously, this suggestion is a HUGE boost for people who base out of one station, without any benefit for those who don't / can't. It's also why the clone delay isn't going beyond 18-20 hours, because 12 hours is enough to swap twice a day and gain a little of the same effect, but with the added bonus of power projection. The goal is "swap once per day", the new skill is a cheap mechanism to gain a little bit of flexibility on what constitutes a day (and yes, I consider a rank 2 skill to IV to be cheap - if you don't believe me, train a T2 large gun first and then we'll talk).

Aren't Caldari supposed to have a large signature?
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#470 - 2013-08-10 06:26:10 UTC
Could always make each clone have it's own separate 24 waiting period, and making the cool-down clones unavailable/undeletable until their respective timer is over.
Roseline Penshar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#471 - 2013-08-10 07:18:00 UTC
how about raise the rank of skill - Informorph Synchronizing, so it train longer (rank 5 maybe?) but make it reduce 7% of time need to activate jump clone so if the skill are max it need 15.6 hours to jump between clone, it still get once daily jump but will take a long time to get it to lv 5
Haoibuni
Short Bus Buccaneers
SL0W CHILDREN AT PLAY
#472 - 2013-08-10 07:39:46 UTC
This will back fire. Many people will jump to their hi-sec +5's at the end of an evening knowing that they can jump back for tomorrow's session.

But what happens when the ping goes up for the titan that's tackled just after you have jumped..... crickets

Encourage us to live in Null, not take excursions there.

Massive minus 1 for this.
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#473 - 2013-08-10 07:46:28 UTC
Haoibuni wrote:
This will back fire. Many people will jump to their hi-sec +5's at the end of an evening knowing that they can jump back for tomorrow's session.

But what happens when the ping goes up for the titan that's tackled just after you have jumped..... crickets

Encourage us to live in Null, not take excursions there.

Massive minus 1 for this.


This might be where an isk based argument would be valid. A fee for transmitting to a clone could very well be a potential sov entity income. Avoiding this using Rorq could be balanced by demanding fuel.

So jumping back to high sec would be more costly, and jumping down to null could be controlled by alliances and be fitting cheap to promote more migration out of high sec?
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#474 - 2013-08-10 07:54:53 UTC
Haoibuni wrote:
This will back fire. Many people will jump to their hi-sec +5's at the end of an evening knowing that they can jump back for tomorrow's session.

But what happens when the ping goes up for the titan that's tackled just after you have jumped..... crickets

Encourage us to live in Null, not take excursions there.

Massive minus 1 for this.


What pathetic self centered incoherence is this? If you want to be available in null then DON'T JUMP.

It is tremendously useful for the rest of us. If null isn't attractive enough to keep people there then the answer is not to make it harder to move about but to improve null.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Templar Knightsbane
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#475 - 2013-08-10 11:27:58 UTC
Personally i would love to see the ability to be able to save up a couple of clone jumps.

Skill Tree example

Lvl 1 - 2 Hour reduction of Jump time
Lvl 2 - 1 stored jump that is used up (takes a 24hour period without jumping to activate)
Lvl 3 - 2 Hour reduction of Jump time
Lvl 4 - 1 stored jump etc
Lvl 5 - 2 Hour reduction

This would mean that you can have 2 jumps now and again to be able to jump someplace and then back again, but is used up and you are unable to do this all the time and you would still get a reduction in jump clone time as well.

A little bit like how Re-maps work. The timeframe i'm just usuing as an example, 24 hours, 48, a week whatever, it would just be nice to be able to say use a JC once a week as a -10player to get to amarr to trade and buy some ships etc and set up a frieght contract beforeyou zip back to no-mans land where your bad bad bad belongs!

Just an idea.
Pistonbroke
Super Villains
Pandemic Horde
#476 - 2013-08-10 12:01:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Pistonbroke
Personally I'd prefer six hours so I can jump to a +5 / bear clone at midnight when I go to bed, and then, when I have had my tea in the evening, at about 6 pm, jump back to the pvp clone, or stay in the current clone and carebear, depending upon what's going on.

It's another one of the skills us old fart players will enjoy taking up to V, for that small extra advantage, whereas newer players can have most of the advantage for just a day or two of training up to L4.

On the whole though, the five hours strikes just about the right balance, I believe that it will increase the use of jump clones, and help more people pvp.

Some people are proposing a 4 hour cool down (20 hour reduction!). This is frankly stupid, and would lead to all manner of game unbalancing shenanigans.

+1 from me for the proposal as it stands
Pistonbroke
Super Villains
Pandemic Horde
#477 - 2013-08-10 12:06:48 UTC
Drew Li wrote:
Didn't read through the entire thread so maybe I'm rehashing some ideas, but with the 2 additional skills I'd go a little further with the tweaks.

1) Multiple Clones per Station
Everyone hates accidentally destroying an expensive existing clone or hunting around for stations to park your current one. With the possibility of 10 clones with the Adv. Infomorph this will get even worse. It would be nice to have all the mindlinked clones at a station readily available to transfer into without jumping gates to do it.

2) Immediate Local Clone Jump
If you are docked with your clone you should be able to switch instantly, regardless of the time. This would allow all the guys with expensive clones to hop into something more suitable to their current task. Nobody wants to take a HG slave clone on a frigate roam. Same thing goes for boosters with different mindlinks. The timer would still apply to transferring to distant clones.



Yes to number 1
I HATE having to have different clones in different stations in null. it's a complete PITA

No to number 2
too big an advantage to home soil (defenders) - they already have BMs up the wazoo, multiple ships in station, JBs, POSes for boosters to hide in etc. etc. Now you want to give them the opportunity to say - everyone change into armor clones. Oh wait, that's not working, dock up and switch to fast clones... oh wait, switch again into shield clones.... until the perfect counter to the raiding or opposing force is found. DO NOT WANT.
Aleander Brunsh
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#478 - 2013-08-10 12:33:36 UTC
I like this being a sill, particularly if it's relatively (but not extremely) slow: this means that the added flexibility has a cost — sure, go ahead and reduce the timer to 19h, or go get Couch Reconfiguration V instead. This, again, will mean a bit more people will take risks, and that is good.

I do like the idea of having multiple clones per station, though (as otherwise you just end up with clones spread "nearby", which is annoying and doesn't really change much balance-wise — at best you'll catch a clone in a shuttle, and in a staging/home system, probably not even that).
Haoibuni
Short Bus Buccaneers
SL0W CHILDREN AT PLAY
#479 - 2013-08-10 14:28:49 UTC
Zappity wrote:


What pathetic self centered incoherence is this? If you want to be available in null then DON'T JUMP.



Yes, I agree on the self-centred bit. I won't be doing it, ofc (70mill sp so plodding along with sp aint an issue and I'm cybernetics 4 anyhow) but literally 1000's of lesser SP pilots will be doing it every single time they play.

Look a few posts above where a chap says that he is gonna do exactly that.
Cyrano Buckminster
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#480 - 2013-08-10 17:37:24 UTC
It all sounds good to me. I do have one suggestion, though: the cooldown skill should be named Infomorph Synchronization (as opposed to Synchronizing).