These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Trading] Hidden order price and volume.
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Unkind Omen
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-08-10 10:19:16 UTC
Problem

Trading in EVE market can become a major pain when there are several people who monitor the position for 24/7 and undercut you by 0.01 ISK. I dont know if there is someone(apart from botters) who enjoys this particular waste of time.

Suggestion

Let people hide the price and/or volume of their order from the others players. The order will still be present on market(and listed as "There are also N hidden orders present.") but would be fullfilled only if someone else would create another sell/buy order that will cover your price/range.

Example

Player A puts buy order on Isogen at 100 ISK/unit. Player B puts hidden buy order on Isogen at 101 ISK/unit. Player C does not see price of the order placed by player B and undercuts by 0.05 ISK/unit placing 100.05 ISK/unti order. Palyer D tries to sell isogen to player A's order at 100 ISK/unit but instead the order of player B is fullfilled as his price is 101 ISK.

Example 2

Player C in previous scenario is smart and checks the hidden order's price by selling 1 Isogen to player B. Then player B realizes that he has been probed and undercut and goes smart way around. He puts a minimal buy volume of 1000 Isogen on his order and sucessfully buys the minerals he need as he will not be probed by selling small volume to him. He might also be interested in making two orders on the same position with different prices and limiting volumes.

PS Let market PVP be more of a PVP rather than "Hei my autoclicker can undercut you all day long."
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#2 - 2013-08-10 10:39:15 UTC
Well, this is new.
Whitehound
#3 - 2013-08-10 10:53:32 UTC
Unkind Omen wrote:
Problem

Trading in EVE market can become a major pain when there are several people who monitor the position for 24/7 and undercut you by 0.01 ISK. I dont know if there is someone(apart from botters) who enjoys this particular waste of time.
...

It is not a problem. Actual super markets do this all the time. When it becomes too much pain for you then move further out. Stop thinking trading needs to be easy. You cannot make a profit when there are too many sellers in one place, no matter how you twist and turn it.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Cade Windstalker
#4 - 2013-08-10 11:00:56 UTC
I personally know several people who don't bot and love their market PvP. Someone starts screwing with your orders so you under-cut him or try to psych him out. Fill his orders at out-of-the-way stations or stations in low-sec. The list of ways to deal with this is huge.
Dristan Evrard
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-08-10 11:05:23 UTC
The best way to solve the 0.01 game is to require a new broker's fee be paid for each change of price.
Gawain Edmond
Khanid Bureau of Industry
#6 - 2013-08-10 11:17:02 UTC
ok sure have hidden prices but if you hide your price then you can't see anyone elses prices or modify your order
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#7 - 2013-08-10 11:38:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Hiding price idea is as ridiculous as it sounds. Just try to imagine yourself going to shop where you cant see prices of goods you were going to buy.

Quote:
The best way to solve the 0.01 game is to require a new broker's fee be paid for each change of price.

Pretty much this. I have suggested same many times before.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Unkind Omen
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-08-10 12:45:19 UTC
Whitehound wrote:

It is not a problem. Actual super markets do this all the time. When it becomes too much pain for you then move further out. Stop thinking trading needs to be easy. You cannot make a profit when there are too many sellers in one place, no matter how you twist and turn it.


I dont think that it needs to be easy. I just propose that we should add an option for the players to replace the hard part of updating price every 5 minutes (which takes patience) with the hard part of predicting the supply and demand prices of other players (which takes brain activity). When you have multiple people in one market some form of splitting of the pie between them would be the best way to force someone go to another position, wouldn't it?

Quote:
I personally know several people who don't bot and love their market PvP. Someone starts screwing with your orders so you under-cut him or try to psych him out. Fill his orders at out-of-the-way stations or stations in low-sec. The list of ways to deal with this is huge.


Hope you know them better than EVE-Uni knew their friend

Filling someone order in lowsec looks like the same amount of effort for you as for your victim as you will first have to deliver that staff to low-sec and he will still get his profit.

Quote:
The best way to solve the 0.01 game is to require a new broker's fee be paid for each change of price.


It's a good alternative. However for some reason CCP is not interested in this one. So I dared to think of alternatives.

Quote:
ok sure have hidden prices but if you hide your price then you can't see anyone elses prices or modify your order


Not modifying your order is fine. But I cant think of how to prevent using multiple characters/account to guarantee the "can't see anyone elses prices".

Quote:
Hiding price idea is as ridiculous as it sounds. Just try to imagine yourself going to shop where you cant see prices of goods you were going to buy.


For me EVE's market(at least the one in Jita) is more an auction than a shop. And I want that auction to have an option of closing bids of participants. What are the brokers in the game for? Only to take additional tax?
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#9 - 2013-08-10 13:02:38 UTC
Unkind Omen wrote:
For me EVE's market(at least the one in Jita) is more an auction than a shop. And I want that auction to have an option of closing bids of participants. What are the brokers in the game for? Only to take additional tax?

Broker in EvE is like a renter IRL: you rent a place on market to sell your stuff and pay a tax/fee for doing so. You are free to do direct trades or contracts if you want to avoid this.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Whitehound
#10 - 2013-08-10 13:18:35 UTC
Unkind Omen wrote:
When you have multiple people in one market some form of splitting of the pie between them would be the best way to force someone go to another position, wouldn't it?...

No. Players deserve to get the best prices and the traders who can offer them win as do their customers. The only one who loses are the traders who cannot compete and it needs losers to have winners.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Unkind Omen
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-08-10 13:28:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Unkind Omen
Quote:
Broker in EvE is like a renter IRL: you rent a place on market to sell your stuff and pay a tax/fee for doing so. You are free to do direct trades or contracts if you want to avoid this.


If it rents me a place I should pay per square meter not the value of the ware.

Whitehound wrote:
Unkind Omen wrote:
When you have multiple people in one market some form of splitting of the pie between them would be the best way to force someone go to another position, wouldn't it?...

No. Players deserve to get the best prices and the traders who can offer them win as do their customers. The only one who loses are the traders who cannot compete and it needs losers to have winners.


Yes they do. The trader however must be a poor one to deny his own profit. So they offer a price that is INSIGNIFICANTLY better than the price of the other trader. However, due to the nature of game mechanics the new offer will be satisfied over the one that is 0.01 ISK more expensive. This will not lead to a good reaction of the whole system on the drop of the demand. This is basically ratchet effect. Not a fair way of forming prices. In the system I propose the trade that offered the best price will get the profit. But they would have to offer SIGNIFICANTLY better price. Otherwise the will be undercut by their competitors.

Add. If you use a parallel to morden supermarkets then you should agreee that loyality of customers is a thing that matters much more than even 5% different in prices. Unless you spend lots of money on PR to make that discount visible to customers.
Whitehound
#12 - 2013-08-10 14:51:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Unkind Omen wrote:
Not a fair way of forming prices.

You too will buy at Jita and you will have benefited from the low prices. Like it or not, but this is the result of the current system.

You are free to undercut competition by more than 0.01 ISKs. Wishing for a way to avoid it is worse than undercutting by only 0.01 ISKs. It means you do not want to undercut at all.

Your idea pretty much sounds like adding hidden costs. Roll

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Unkind Omen
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-08-10 15:49:41 UTC
Whitehound wrote:

You too will buy at Jita and you will have benefited from the low prices.


I really think that this should help actually decreasing the price for consumers rather than increasing it.

Quote:
You are free to undercut competition by more than 0.01 ISKs. Wishing for a way to avoid it is worse than undercutting by only 0.01 ISKs. It means you do not want to undercut at all.
Roll


Yes you can. But right after that you will be undercut by 0.01 and will get no profit of your previous damping (which is presumably the ability to sell ware fast and make more profit from having a good revenue).

The biggest problem with this undercutting is actually the inability to sell anything located in the other region. And this prevents people from spreading their trading unless they create specialised alts for each region and this adds problems with managing items around different characters' warehouses and so on and so force.
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#14 - 2013-08-10 18:54:58 UTC
Nothing broken about competition, if you cannot handle it go do something else with your time.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
#15 - 2013-08-10 19:19:47 UTC
I say we blow the hell out of Jita and start over again.
Whitehound
#16 - 2013-08-10 19:45:06 UTC
Unkind Omen wrote:
Whitehound wrote:

You too will buy at Jita and you will have benefited from the low prices.


I really think that this should help actually decreasing the price for consumers rather than increasing it.

Quote:
You are free to undercut competition by more than 0.01 ISKs. Wishing for a way to avoid it is worse than undercutting by only 0.01 ISKs. It means you do not want to undercut at all.
Roll


Yes you can. But right after that you will be undercut by 0.01 and will get no profit of your previous damping (which is presumably the ability to sell ware fast and make more profit from having a good revenue).

The biggest problem with this undercutting is actually the inability to sell anything located in the other region. And this prevents people from spreading their trading unless they create specialised alts for each region and this adds problems with managing items around different characters' warehouses and so on and so force.

Be faster or find a different product or a different station. You still only want to avoid the competition instead of beating them.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#17 - 2013-08-10 21:11:48 UTC
Whitehound wrote:

Be faster or find a different product or a different station. You still only want to avoid the competition instead of beating them.


Exactly. And there's nothing wrong with wanting to avoid some competition. But you can't avoid it all. If the market you've chosen is too hot, or the items you trade in aren't working for you, then switch it up. Go somewhere else to trade, or do some market homework and start taking advantage of a new set of items.