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Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence

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Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#241 - 2013-08-01 06:52:44 UTC
Cade wrote:
WH locals, they work, nothing wrong with them...

same would work really in everywhere and there is no issues?
if you want to show up, then just spam your scams like never nothing changed = jita save
if you want to surprise, go ahead, no1 never knows what happened, and you have more effort to bang some1
this would also improve usage of dscan and other gamemechanics wich are more "realistic" than just showing up in "local" wich is imo from RP view channel where ships/stations broadcast messages and then your ID is revealed when you do so.

Also from other point of view, this is more realistic way, there is custom channels where you can showup if you like.

RP JITA BANG MINER SAVE ?!

Cloaked ships don't show up on D-Scan. WH's don't have Cynos to jump in unlimited capitals much less supercapitals. WH's don't have covert cynos to Bops in a gank squad and Bops out before anyone can counter tackle. WHs don't have static connections to adjacent systems forever. WHs don't have starmap statistics showing what systems have people and activity based upgrades.

RP view does not equal functional in a game.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#242 - 2013-08-01 07:50:41 UTC
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
Cade wrote:
WH locals, they work, nothing wrong with them...

same would work really in everywhere and there is no issues?
if you want to show up, then just spam your scams like never nothing changed = jita save
if you want to surprise, go ahead, no1 never knows what happened, and you have more effort to bang some1
this would also improve usage of dscan and other gamemechanics wich are more "realistic" than just showing up in "local" wich is imo from RP view channel where ships/stations broadcast messages and then your ID is revealed when you do so.

Also from other point of view, this is more realistic way, there is custom channels where you can showup if you like.

RP JITA BANG MINER SAVE ?!

Cloaked ships don't show up on D-Scan. WH's don't have Cynos to jump in unlimited capitals much less supercapitals. WH's don't have covert cynos to Bops in a gank squad and Bops out before anyone can counter tackle. WHs don't have static connections to adjacent systems forever. WHs don't have starmap statistics showing what systems have people and activity based upgrades.

RP view does not equal functional in a game.


You're forgetting the biggest difference with wormhole space: The players aren't terrible carebears who expect perfect, absolute intel and safety. They work for it :)

hope this helps
Cade
Underworlds
#243 - 2013-08-01 08:22:19 UTC
Erutpar Ambient wrote:

Cloaked ships don't show up on D-Scan. WH's don't have Cynos to jump in unlimited capitals much less supercapitals. WH's don't have covert cynos to Bops in a gank squad and Bops out before anyone can counter tackle. WHs don't have static connections to adjacent systems forever. WHs don't have starmap statistics showing what systems have people and activity based upgrades.

RP view does not equal functional in a game.


They does not showup either in wh...

So you want more to be more safe from capitals, imagine how gameplay would change more challenging when you actually must have INTEL, not just afk in system to see when people pops in local...

Well this is just my opinion... Either way that would game more interesting from my point of view but ofcourse easier is tempting aswell, but must consider that also has to be equal to everyone so smaller corps/alliances has better changes been over run by large OR smaller alliances have more change to overrun larger alliances... Gates are static so you can have intels on them at all times if want. In every way you should have to work for intel and rely on map / intel.

As said, just my opinion but everyone one can go from where pleases where the fench is lowest.
FerrenoNL
Private Banking Services
#244 - 2013-08-01 08:48:54 UTC
Im very much against removing or altering local ideas, it would do more bad than good in my eyes (not just the hunting aspect), however, your idea is brilliant. +1
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#245 - 2013-08-01 09:38:37 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Cura Ursus
-- OFFENSIVE LINK REMOVED --


--ISD Cura Ursus
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#246 - 2013-08-01 13:36:58 UTC
Expecting a degree of effort, and using this effort as a means to compete, is good for the game.

When the game provides the intel, and to be balanced does so equally on both sides, of course it is possible to get a stalemate effect out of it.
After all, both sides used equal effort for the intel that inspired their tactics, which was zero effort.


Since intel is easier for pilots who are local residents, it favors them when the free automatic intel is reduced.
The reason is that this requires less effort to log in, and notice others present. They don't need to travel as far to report intel for their local systems.

Hostile pilots require more effort to report similar intel, which is why they do not usually have intel channels for systems they don't base out of.
No friendly pilots frequent enough to provide intel.

This version grants privacy to local residents, and to cloaked vessels, using pilot choice and effort.
If they want to decloak, or leave their protective structures, they can see and be seen in local.

Effort plus risk is required for intel, even if it is nearly passive to the point of undocking / flying beyond the shield / or just decloaking.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Shade Millith
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#247 - 2013-08-07 09:44:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Shade Millith
ITT : People trying to depopulate Nullsec of targets.

Seriously, the reason why there are so fewer people in WH space, despite being so valuable, is because of it not having local. You can get jumped without ever knowing someone was there.

Turn nullsec into WH space, without the isk reward? There's not much point in being in nullsec. PVErs leave. No more people to shoot at.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#248 - 2013-08-07 13:35:33 UTC
Shade Millith wrote:
ITT : People trying to depopulate Nullsec of targets.

Seriously, the reason why there are so fewer people in WH space, despite being so valuable, is because of it not having local. You can get jumped without ever knowing someone was there.

Turn nullsec into WH space, without the isk reward? There's not much point in being in nullsec. PVErs leave. No more people to shoot at.

You are either not aware of who local benefits most, or you are trying to be funny.

The residents of an area, with sov, set up intel channels. These channels don't take extreme effort, since half of the reports are the result of chance encounters.

This intel is one sided, and benefits the sov holding groups only. The hostile ship(s) do not know who or where targets are located from this. They are normally not even in the channel at all.

The hostiles are blind.

Now, add local as it is right now. The hostiles now have instant and free intel about who is present in a system.
The locals already knew this, and very likely knew about the hostile(s) well enough to be warned.

As to wormholes, local is NOT the primary mechanic making them less used than they might otherwise be.
Try considering how difficult it is to get into a specific one, and returning to one when you get podded.
Now realize the logistics are difficult at best moving supplies and resources, because of this.

My OP leaves in local to a degree, but also permits hunting of cloaked vessels as specified in the cross linked thread.

Scroll up for the link, it's not too far.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#249 - 2013-08-07 15:11:38 UTC
I must have missed this thread.....

Nikk, you have my full support.

+1

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#250 - 2013-08-08 09:05:39 UTC
I'd still rather kill local entirely. This would be a huge incentive for players to venture into low-sec in droves... (and would probably more than offset any disadvantages). In the OP, did we remove local for those docked @ stations and POS?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#251 - 2013-08-08 14:16:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
Nuko Akato wrote:
This thread is full of bomber pilots that want easy kills , -1 , nothing wrong with current system. CCP will not nerf local , its too much a drastic change to the game. Just deal with it.


And you'd know this because of your extensive time in game I take it? Did you even bother to read the Full OP and the subsequent replies or did you just "hot drop a troll line"?

As for "CCP will not..." I'm sorry that I failed to recognise your influence with CCP. These threads gather ideas, refine them, discuss them, add to them and they get read by GM's, CSM, Dev's etc. If they're good and have plenty of discussion then they get discussed further with, well this is awkward, CCP! Like the recent 1363 Little Things list that the CSM whittled down to 100 things that we all were able to vote on.

So why don't you take yourself back under the bridge from whence you came Troll and deal with that.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#252 - 2013-08-08 14:17:32 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Cloaking is fine as it is, stop whining.


Read the OP and subsequent replies to and fro (Nikk has replied to most people as I've actually read all 13 pages) and then comment...or move along.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#253 - 2013-08-08 14:54:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
Before you can implement this, you must first implement a Cloak Hunter type of mechanic.


Why not implement them at the same time (after SiSi Testing OFC Roll)?

EDIT: And why must the Cloak Hunter change be added before Local is upgraded might I ask you Erutpar Ambient?

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Atlantis Fuanan
Wormhole Research Inc.
#254 - 2013-08-08 14:56:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Atlantis Fuanan
I like the idea of changing local. I don't like how it is right now, that's why i live in a WH. No "free intel" local, YOU have to work on it with your corp mates to make it usefull and safe in such a thing. (Additionaly, no stupid cyno *cough*)

[u]Things that would make EVE better:[/u] NRDS - Remove Local - Balance Cloak - Sov-Mechanic Changes - Less QQ
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#255 - 2013-08-08 16:14:31 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
Before you can implement this, you must first implement a Cloak Hunter type of mechanic.


Why not implement them at the same time (after SiSi Testing OFC Roll)?


Agreed.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Gawain Edmond
Khanid Bureau of Industry
#256 - 2013-08-10 05:28:15 UTC
i disagree that some people should be in local and some shouldn't everyone or no one should be there. People in a pos should show up and be able to see local as while inside a pos you can man the guns and shoot people who are attacking it, just because people don't the ability is present in the game.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#257 - 2013-08-10 09:38:29 UTC
Just get rid of local for everyone and replace it with constellation chat.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Shade Millith
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#258 - 2013-08-10 11:23:23 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Shade Millith wrote:
ITT : People trying to depopulate Nullsec of targets.

Seriously, the reason why there are so fewer people in WH space, despite being so valuable, is because of it not having local. You can get jumped without ever knowing someone was there.

Turn nullsec into WH space, without the isk reward? There's not much point in being in nullsec. PVErs leave. No more people to shoot at.

You are either not aware of who local benefits most, or you are trying to be funny.


I hope you aren't suggesting that local is more important to hunters, because if you are incapable of finding where tons of ratters are without local then you might want to learn a few basic tricks.



Use the Map > Star Map > Stars > Statistics > Average Pilots in Space in the Last 30 minutes. Look for 2-3 pilots in any out of the way system. Bam. Ratters are there.

Hell, just wander randomly around out of the way systems and hit D-Scan in each system you pass. You're going to find tons of targets.



And you're expecting dozens of people to sit around in their space in these ships of yours just waiting for cloakers? For every system that a ratter is in, you'd need one of these. You'd need that person to remain active at all times, doing nothing else but hitting D-SCAN over, and over, and over.

Because if they miss me for even 15 seconds, I'll have found a ratter, and already attacked.


I used to hunt ratters in a solo bomber, and this would be a massive, massive buff to hunting with a cloaky. Would make it almost trivial. Any system that didn't have one of these ships (and the pilot on eternal vigilance) would be easy pickings.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#259 - 2013-08-10 13:53:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Nikk Narrel
Shade Millith wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:

You are either not aware of who local benefits most, or you are trying to be funny.


I hope you aren't suggesting that local is more important to hunters, because if you are incapable of finding where tons of ratters are without local then you might want to learn a few basic tricks.



Use the Map > Star Map > Stars > Statistics > Average Pilots in Space in the Last 30 minutes. Look for 2-3 pilots in any out of the way system. Bam. Ratters are there.

Hell, just wander randomly around out of the way systems and hit D-Scan in each system you pass. You're going to find tons of targets.



And you're expecting dozens of people to sit around in their space in these ships of yours just waiting for cloakers? For every system that a ratter is in, you'd need one of these. You'd need that person to remain active at all times, doing nothing else but hitting D-SCAN over, and over, and over.

Because if they miss me for even 15 seconds, I'll have found a ratter, and already attacked.


I used to hunt ratters in a solo bomber, and this would be a massive, massive buff to hunting with a cloaky. Would make it almost trivial. Any system that didn't have one of these ships (and the pilot on eternal vigilance) would be easy pickings.

Ok, let's just look at what you posted.

Local IS NOT important to hunters.

Hunters can make effort, and check map statistics to see where PAST targets have been.

Here you describe the hunter thinking, and making an effort. Not so much the targets, as they are obviously behaving in a predictable manner to be found from this.

And D-Scan s so powerful, indeed, especially when local tips off the hunter that targets are present to be found.
Add to this, Local is confirming the absence of forces in amounts too high to risk being present. Must be safe to hunt, if the number range is right.

Now, you have given the hunter D-Scan, and the map tools.
And what, pray tell, are they hunting IN?
Well, if they are going unseen in local except for the flickers at gates, it has to be a fully covert ship. Any other would be advertised in local while warping.
(You DID read the OP, I presume, and understand uncloaked vessels in open space are listed)

But these attackers don't get to see forces sitting in a POS, or docked in the Outpost.
A large fleet could be in ANY system having such a structure, unseen by would be attackers.

My point:
The current version of Local helps hunters MORE than local pilots, even compared to my version.

My version doesn't hand out everything to everyone, but it does show active uncloaked ships.

Now, as to the cross linked thread explaining how to hunt cloaked ships, NOTHING is stopping any ship from fitting the module.
The same as any ship could pretty much fit a cloak.

Yes, and it will gimp the fitting in exactly the same way.

A sacrifice to be hidden, countered by a sacrifice to see hidden.

Sounds balanced to me.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Shade Alidiana
PROSPERO Corporation
#260 - 2013-08-12 12:13:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Shade Alidiana
Had some more thoughts about this.

A person can choose in settings of something (like chat or mail settings) whether or not to connect automatically to local. If it's on, you show up there. If it isn't, you don't.

But! As a different way to know who ENTERS or LEAVES the system, the gates should provide that info on demand, probably as a message in a special channel (or local) for those who wants to know this (variations are: interface for the feature, info provided).

P. S. I suggested this just to balance things between WH and normal space. This way, you will still know what's happening.