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Active Armor Tanking - How do we make it viable?

Author
Veryez
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
#21 - 2011-11-11 09:58:01 UTC
Simple - roll back the changes w/Revelations.

Before Revelations, active tanking was the only way to go, back then though people whined that many times they died "almost instantaneously as they jumped through a gate. They had no chance to do anything", so CCP decided that to make fights last longer, massive boosts in tanking were necessary. For those not around, I believe t1 hulls got 20% boosts in EHP, plates and shield extenders got 50% boosts and rigs were added. Such that active tanking a ship became very foolish indeed. As an interesting aside Hybrid weapons were the FoTM as they were the only ones w/enough DPS to chew through all that EHP before the next DT.

Many, many people warned that the HP boosts were insane and grossly OP, but CCP was undeterred. Now almost 6 years later Lasers and Projectiles have been boosted to compensate for the EHP boosts in Revelations, Hybrids are due some loving (since they weren't that bad until the speed nerfs), though active tanking is still a relic.

Well we could remove rigs from the game as a start, though I suspect that would break quite a few fittings (and CCP would never do that anyway). So here's a more realistic solution, reduce plates and shield extenders HP by 50% (i.e. cut their relevations HP boosts by 1/2) and remove the stacking nerf on shield and armor resist modules (both active and passive, don't worry hitting 100% resistance is still impossible). You must make a high resist/active tanking ship last as long or longer than a plated ship (preferrably longer since active tanking uses cap) under combat conditions. Right now it doesn't. Plates/extenders are simply too good.

That's where I'd start.
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#22 - 2011-11-11 10:17:12 UTC
HP increases were added because population increase (and focused fire) made fights last seconds rather then minutes and has nothing whatsoever to do with active tanking. Since population has increased even further (times two at least) your suggestion of removing the HP boosts would do diddly squat, would certainly not have any effect on active tank viability.

Buffer and active tanking is not supposed to be interchangeable, they each have a preferred/optimal place in Eve. Problem today is that while dps, gang size, RR and EHP has been increased over the years, local repair has not been moved one iota .. it is the old cast iron bicycle in a modern day carbon-fibre bicycle race. The difference has become so pronounced that buffering is now preferable to active tanking in all scenarios, only a few frigate match-ups still see reppers on a regular basis.

Massive boost to the burst ability of local repair for a limited duration (heat can be used as balance) will make it significantly better than buffering on the small scale without touching the areas of Eve where it is not supposed to be in the first place.
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
#23 - 2011-11-11 13:06:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Jojo Jackson
Tac Mannall wrote:
Jojo Jackson wrote:
But please don't forget to adjust REMOTE armor reps when adjusting LOCAL armor reps ;).

Wouldn't help, when remote stay the way they are now.


Do remote armor reps need the same buffs as the local ones?

To be honest I don't know ;).

But they both should work the same way (for example rep at start of cycle). Wouldn't be the first time, when one thing is changed but others are untouched even if they are brothers (like local & remote armor rep).

Was more a reminder: don't forget to make same work similar if they aren't after a change ;).

Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship!

Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#24 - 2011-11-11 16:13:38 UTC
Raven Ether wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Two of the big reasons active shield tanking is preferred in PvP over active armor tanking is due to the shield booster's short cycle time and the fact that shield boosters give their effect as soon as it is activated (armor reps take effect after the cycle is completed).


Just fix this and it should be fine.


I've always heard that active armour tanking is much more cap efficient than active shield tanking. That for a shield tanker to get 2 HP per 1 capacitor point is a great achievement, whereas for an amour anker such a ratio is routine.

Am I misinformed?
Tac Mannall
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2011-11-11 16:44:35 UTC
Salpad wrote:

I've always heard that active armour tanking is much more cap efficient than active shield tanking. That for a shield tanker to get 2 HP per 1 capacitor point is a great achievement, whereas for an amour anker such a ratio is routine.

Am I misinformed?


No I think that's what I've heard too and honestly what drew me towards armor tanking when I started Eve.

I think Hirana Yoshida has a good idea in giving armor reps the ability to 'burst activate'. Maybe have Active Armor hulls have a bonus to heat dissipation for their reppers? Less heat buildup would mean shorter rep cycles and amounts for just that much longer and might give an edge in a fight.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#26 - 2011-11-11 17:09:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Fon Revedhort
Salpad wrote:
Raven Ether wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Two of the big reasons active shield tanking is preferred in PvP over active armor tanking is due to the shield booster's short cycle time and the fact that shield boosters give their effect as soon as it is activated (armor reps take effect after the cycle is completed).


Just fix this and it should be fine.


I've always heard that active armour tanking is much more cap efficient than active shield tanking. That for a shield tanker to get 2 HP per 1 capacitor point is a great achievement, whereas for an amour anker such a ratio is routine.

Am I misinformed?

You are.

1) Note shield compensation skill
2) Bear in mind that 1 SB = 2 armour reppers (in terms of HP/sec) and given that one sigle armour repper is a joke, we should toss in a SBA for shield tankers to make our comparison equal in terms of slots used.

So at the end of the day shield tank is just as cap-efficient as amour tank is. On top of that it has an option of using Crystals.

Finally, deadspace shield boosters are MUCH better than plain tech2, while it's not the case for armour repairers - centus X-type is merely like 150% of tech2.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.

Chi Quan
Bibkor Enterprises
#27 - 2011-11-11 17:50:46 UTC
one could also make rep amount bonuses apply to received reps. also, since the regenerative plating is seldomly used, it could give a bonus to reppers in addition to its armor increase (maybe make the rep amount bonus not apply to capitals).

-- Please like me, I'm an attention w*ore.

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