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[Odyssey 1.1] Dominix bonus change

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Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#221 - 2013-08-09 16:41:45 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Anharat wrote:
>has nothing to do with the tournament
>publishes the change right after the tournament
seems legit


If I could place a bounty on you for this awful post, I would.

Gotta admit it is a little suspect, not as if people didn't question the wisdom of the 10% bonus prior to implementation. He is however probably telling the truth when he says the tourny was not the deciding factor, but there is no way it was not a contributing factor. Main thing is likely the FC assigned sentries from blobs in null that I hear is all the rage and has spawned Goddess knows how many threads to date.


What's wrong with paying attention to the AT, with regards to ship/module/weapon balancing?

It's clear to me that it would be wrong to base balancing decisions solely, or even just mostly, on AT observations. But why is it wrong to use that as one factor among many, and appropriately weighted?
Garak n00biachi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#222 - 2013-08-09 16:48:29 UTC
Please limit other battleships to 5 guns or launchers max.
Take away pg cpu from them too.
Make their weapons lockable and destroyable.
Force them to sit the %#$ still while shooting.
Make them as pretty as my domi >.>
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#223 - 2013-08-09 17:01:08 UTC
Salpad wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Anharat wrote:
>has nothing to do with the tournament
>publishes the change right after the tournament
seems legit


If I could place a bounty on you for this awful post, I would.

Gotta admit it is a little suspect, not as if people didn't question the wisdom of the 10% bonus prior to implementation. He is however probably telling the truth when he says the tourny was not the deciding factor, but there is no way it was not a contributing factor. Main thing is likely the FC assigned sentries from blobs in null that I hear is all the rage and has spawned Goddess knows how many threads to date.


What's wrong with paying attention to the AT, with regards to ship/module/weapon balancing?

It's clear to me that it would be wrong to base balancing decisions solely, or even just mostly, on AT observations. But why is it wrong to use that as one factor among many, and appropriately weighted?


Eve generally isn't played in 250km bubble that you can't warp in with only ten dudes per side.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#224 - 2013-08-09 17:21:58 UTC
GallowsCalibrator wrote:
Thread is now pluralchat.

To contribute, Dominix -> Dominices?


Dominii Twisted
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#225 - 2013-08-09 17:28:42 UTC
You want to make sentry drones more like turrets? When sentries deploy, they attach themselves to the ship's hull and are protected by it just like normal guns. Other drones have the option of attaching or leaving and pursuing.

While we are making our wish list: Drones should be given points, webs, and neuts. I know that we have drones for two of those things, but I think that those should have bonuses to them plus have guns. Drones become like small spaceships. We should be able to fit and refit our drones with drone modules, altering their abilities and performance. We also need drones for towers. Subcaps need subcap Drone Control Unit modules.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Vyktor Abyss
Abyss Research
#226 - 2013-08-09 19:43:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Vyktor Abyss
CCP Rise wrote:
The biggest one is that it gets more bonuses to its primary weapons than a missile or turret based ship would.


Here is the sentence that irks me most of all.

CCP Rise wrote:

primary weapons


Specifically.

It is quite comedy that you balancing folks at CCP now consider drones a "primary weapon" on par with missiles or turrets.
How many missile launchers or turrets are destroyable by being shot or smartbombed or killed by rats?
How many missile launchers and turrets often decide to stop firing by themselves or just stop in space like drones often do?
How often do you have to warp off leaving your full rack of turrets or launchers on the field if you even moved 2500m?

Drones have some terrible drawbacks you people at CCP selectively forget and don't factor in, before declaring them a "primary weapon" and the recently revamped Domi 'imbalanced'.

If you're saying there's an issue with Sentry drone Domis? Please point to the overwhelming evidence of imbalance on TQ...
But oh wait....you've actually got no evidence because you'll probably see many more people flying Geddons as a result of the BS changes rather than Domis - so where's the Geddon nerf? And its nothing to do with AT11, except your only evidence of Domi 'ownage' is in AT11.... so... of course we will believe you CCP Rise that this change has nothing to do with AT11.

Quite simply an unnecessary change prompted by a long standing CCP desire to homogenize the traditional Gallente 'drone race' superiority, under the guise of game balance. Tosh.
I'm Down
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#227 - 2013-08-09 19:55:18 UTC
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
The biggest one is that it gets more bonuses to its primary weapons than a missile or turret based ship would.


Here is the sentence that irks me most of all.

CCP Rise wrote:

primary weapons


Specifically.

It is quite comedy that you balancing folks at CCP now consider drones a "primary weapon" on par with missiles or turrets.
How many missile launchers or turrets are destroyable by being shot or smartbombed or killed by rats?
How many missile launchers and turrets often decide to stop firing by themselves or just stop in space like drones often do?
How often do you have to warp off leaving your full rack of turrets or launchers on the field if you even moved 2500m?

Drones have some terrible drawbacks you people at CCP selectively forget and don't factor in, before declaring them a "primary weapon" and the recently revamped Domi 'imbalanced'.

If you're saying there's an issue with Sentry drone Domis? Please point to the overwhelming evidence of imbalance on TQ...
But oh wait....you've actually got no evidence because you'll probably see many more people flying Geddons as a result of the BS changes rather than Domis - so where's the Geddon nerf? And its nothing to do with AT11, except your only evidence of Domi 'ownage' is in AT11.... so... of course we will believe you CCP Rise that this change has nothing to do with AT11.

Quite simply an unnecessary change prompted by a long standing CCP desire to homogenize the traditional Gallente 'drone race' superiority, under the guise of game balance. Tosh.



You're a clueless idiot. One of the two primary fleets in 0.0 currently is Domi centric. In fact, it shows a very OP weapon system in Sentry drones when you also have Sentry carrier fleets that are nearly unbeatable, geddon fleets, prophecy fleets, and the soon to be rattlesnake fleets.... all heavily sentry oriented.

If you wanted to argue for the Domi keeping it's bonuses, then you need to also source the problem which is sentries being way too good.

Fact is, carriers shouldn't have any capabilities outside fighters.... or they should get a seperate much smaller drone bay for sub fighter drones.

Dominix need the reduced bonus, and the rest would probably be pretty balanced as a result.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#228 - 2013-08-09 20:22:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
The biggest one is that it gets more bonuses to its primary weapons than a missile or turret based ship would.


Here is the sentence that irks me most of all.

CCP Rise wrote:

primary weapons


Specifically.

It is quite comedy that you balancing folks at CCP now consider drones a "primary weapon" on par with missiles or turrets.
How many missile launchers or turrets are destroyable by being shot or smartbombed or killed by rats?
How many missile launchers and turrets often decide to stop firing by themselves or just stop in space like drones often do?
How often do you have to warp off leaving your full rack of turrets or launchers on the field if you even moved 2500m?

Drones have some terrible drawbacks you people at CCP selectively forget and don't factor in, before declaring them a "primary weapon" and the recently revamped Domi 'imbalanced'.

If you're saying there's an issue with Sentry drone Domis? Please point to the overwhelming evidence of imbalance on TQ...
But oh wait....you've actually got no evidence because you'll probably see many more people flying Geddons as a result of the BS changes rather than Domis - so where's the Geddon nerf? And its nothing to do with AT11, except your only evidence of Domi 'ownage' is in AT11.... so... of course we will believe you CCP Rise that this change has nothing to do with AT11.

Quite simply an unnecessary change prompted by a long standing CCP desire to homogenize the traditional Gallente 'drone race' superiority, under the guise of game balance. Tosh.

While drones undoubtedly have their own unique set of rules as weapons, that in no way prevents them from being the primary weapon of a ship. Rather all it does is change how and when the ship can be used to it best, even if those stipulations seem rather limiting.

Also, why are some of us still pretending we have even a fraction of their knowledge as far as the totality of what is happening on TQ? And as far as the geddon, if the issue is bonused sentry tracking and it has no comparable bonus, what is there to nerf?
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#229 - 2013-08-09 21:03:30 UTC
Hell ***** wrote:
GallowsCalibrator wrote:
Thread is now pluralchat.

To contribute, Dominix -> Dominices?


or what about Dominatrixes Twisted



That would be a Domme, not Domi =P

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#230 - 2013-08-09 21:11:37 UTC
And the Domi heads back into the hanger. After all the work I did getting the cobwebs off it too.

CCP doesn't like drone boats
Endeavour Starfleet
#231 - 2013-08-09 22:36:31 UTC
CCP RIse again will you please consider dropping this plan for 1.1? WIll you please stop treating drone boats like they are turret boats?
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#232 - 2013-08-09 22:41:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
I'm Down wrote:



You're a clueless idiot. One of the two primary fleets in 0.0 currently is Domi centric. In fact, it shows a very OP weapon system in Sentry drones when you also have Sentry carrier fleets that are nearly unbeatable, geddon fleets, prophecy fleets, and the soon to be rattlesnake fleets.... all heavily sentry oriented.

If you wanted to argue for the Domi keeping it's bonuses, then you need to also source the problem which is sentries being way too good.

Fact is, carriers shouldn't have any capabilities outside fighters.... or they should get a seperate much smaller drone bay for sub fighter drones.

Dominix need the reduced bonus, and the rest would probably be pretty balanced as a result.



So I guess you didn't keep tabs on Fountain, because we faced a variety of domis, prophesies, and slowcats and smashed all of them. In the case of the Domis, they lose critical mass if you damp all of their logi to hell and kill them faster than they kill you.

....I heard that bombers and geddons with smart bombs in the immobile sentry field help as well.

Sentries are far from the issue, the assist machanic could use a good looking at but the sentries themselves aren't that bad.

Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
CCP RIse again will you please consider dropping this plan for 1.1? WIll you please stop treating drone boats like they are turret boats?


Pretty much this.

....and I don't even own a domi anymore.
Vyktor Abyss
Abyss Research
#233 - 2013-08-09 23:59:18 UTC
I'm Down wrote:


You're a clueless idiot. One of the two primary fleets in 0.0 currently is Domi centric. In fact, it shows a very OP weapon system in Sentry drones when you also have Sentry carrier fleets that are nearly unbeatable, geddon fleets, prophecy fleets, and the soon to be rattlesnake fleets.... all heavily sentry oriented.

If you wanted to argue for the Domi keeping it's bonuses, then you need to also source the problem which is sentries being way too good.

Fact is, carriers shouldn't have any capabilities outside fighters.... or they should get a seperate much smaller drone bay for sub fighter drones.

Dominix need the reduced bonus, and the rest would probably be pretty balanced as a result.


Carriers, Rattlesnakes, geddons, prophecies....

Yes I see where you are coming from here.... obviously the bonus to Dominix drone tracking is making all these other Sentry drone fleets far too viable and competitive - the solution here is obviously to nerf the Dominix for also sometimes using sentry drones.

You made my point for me, congratulations muppet.
Louis Robichaud
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#234 - 2013-08-10 00:40:54 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Drone disadvantages are also balanced by things like having a free top rack that you can use to get even more damage or pick up tons of utility or the ability to switch weapon sizes and damage types freely.



That is pretty shaky logic. The turret-based ships have a free drone bay that they can use to get even more damage or pick up a lot of utility...

I agree that the sentry drones were powerful, and I also agree that this nerf is modest. I'm just not sure it's needed given the severe limitation sentry drones impose on the user due to their lack of mobility.

I blog a bit http://hspew.blogspot.ca
THE SMUDGE
ALIMONY INC
#235 - 2013-08-10 00:55:06 UTC
amurder Hakomairos wrote:
Sigras wrote:

you think it is balanced they think it is not, and considering they:
#1 dont have a vested interest in the dominix like you do
#2 have more metrics to look at than you do
#3 are both experienced PvPers

theyre probably right.



No, they are not right. Or at least they haven't bothered to provide any evidence that suggests that they are. I spent 20+ days training Gallente BS 5 based on the ship bonuses presented by CCP in the BS rebalance. Rise spent 20 seconds writing a post here saying that they are reducing the bonus basically because they can even though he said himself "The Dominix hasn't been oppressively powerful". Yeah, that sounds like something that needs a nerf.

I understand at times nerfs are necessary. Sometimes CCP implements something on TQ while its still half-baked (SCs, Titans, etc) and sometimes a mechanic is broken or a set of modules is so powerful its game breaking and needs to be adjusted (remote doomsday, nano age). But to nerf the Dominix, without any reason listed to justify it, while none of the other recently rebalanced battleships are being adjusted, is unacceptable.

Rise, if you are going to do this I expect you to at least put an hour into a decent post in this thread to justify why the change is being made. Show us the stats/metrics/information that you have that show why this bonus change is necessary.


CCP Rise wrote:

You're right that there's some distinct disadvantages to using drones (and sentries especially), but think about all the ways the ship is already accounting for that. The biggest one is that it gets more bonuses to its primary weapons than a missile or turret based ship would. This one bonus is giving +50% optimal AND +50% tracking; imagine a Megathron or Maelstrom with that kind of bonus. Drone disadvantages are also balanced by things like having a free top rack that you can use to get even more damage or pick up tons of utility or the ability to switch weapon sizes and damage types freely.


Please explain to me how any of this translates into a need to adjust the bonus, because all of this sounds to me like more "we are changing this because we can, not because its breaking the game". Yes, the Dominix has more bonus to its primary weapons. Its primary weapons also have a lot of disadvantages that other weapon types do not have. The turrets on your Mega or Mael cannot be destroyed and dont require you to sit still to use them. Also, the Domi has no other weapon bonuses, have you thrown 4-5 unbonused guns on a ship and seen what kind of dps increase that is? Its basically useless.



^ I'm with this guy. (thanks for saving me typing time bro)
LeAnys
#236 - 2013-08-10 09:51:57 UTC
+1 Support this change. As long year drone user i do not have problem with changing optimal and tracking 10% to 7,5%.

I will use Garde II with shortest, and Warde II with longest range for comparison.

old Dominix with 2x FNOTL:
Garde II 49,16km optimal - 61,16km with falloff - 0,059 tracking
Warden II 122,92km optimal - 134,92km with falloff - 0,0196 tracking

current Dominix with 2x FNOTL:
Garde II 73,75km optimal - 85,75km with falloff - 0,0885 tracking
Warden II 184,38km optimal - 196,38km with falloff - 0,0295 tracking

after 10% to 7,5% change Dominix with 2x FNOTL:
Garde II 63,91km optimal - 75,91km with falloff - 0,0767 tracking
Warden II 159,79km optimal - 171,16km with falloff - 0,0255 tracking

It will still have quite bonus to optimal and tracking if u ask me.




Drones are like a little children, disobeying and annoying
Max Zerg
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#237 - 2013-08-10 10:08:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Max Zerg
Dear CCP Rise


i strongly hope you are still browsing through this thread
(and there is no progress in other ones like industrials or med rails)
so i simply trying this offtopic to be heard

1. "Miasmos" name for Iteron 4 is offensive. It is too indecent. The common euphemism for pooping. Please reconsider for plague guy or anything else without that amount of offense. I may suggest Eol or Eudios (εὔδιος). This options do not smell bad. Really.

2. Nerfing medium rails tracking is the nerf of Vexor. Gallente newbies can use Tristan but are to skip drone boats like Algos (due to CPU restrictions it is hard to fit by "All 3" pilots) also the newbies are to skip Vexor because the rails "rebalancing" make them obsolete there. Navy Vexor (with 5 sentry compensating the useless rails) is not much affordable by two-weeks old player. +15% ROF shall drain capacitor way faster and newbie with low capacitor skills is to wait for Vexor more than his/her 14 days. As far as i understand the CCP's message is "Drones are not for noobs" (and this is true. Please, remind me which of gunnery skills increase turret damage by 20% for level? We are to train drone skills to at least 1.5kk-2.0kk SP to start being efficient. In newbs terms it is a long time.)

3. Your new NPC AI makes elite cruisers to destroy small and medium drones on non-gallente ships in one or two shots. Gallente ships have bonus for drone hitpoints and even with this it is impossible to distract NPC ships' aggro shooting at them from ships guns, only to remove the drone and release it in 30 seconds later. Drone aggro is the problem requiring attention as drones are destructible and cannot be "reloaded" from cargo during the fight at the ships with small drone bays. While hiding the damaged drone(s) we have to use incomplete flight (e.g. less DPS)

4. Drones interface is very user-Unfriendly. Hope CCM8 also share this opinion. We really need drone damage in-bay indicator (please, see previous idea)

5. As for nerfing Domi's drones optimal and tracking I can afford two faction omnis. However Domi is one of the few true drones boats. CCP Rise when CCP plans to give players real T3 drone boat? We have missile arty hybrid and laser T3s, but Proteus is still overtanked Myrmidon. Also AT is far from the real environments. Real pvp is not 1 vs 1 or 10 vs 10 within 150km sphere, hope you realize this. True drone ships are very very few. Please, be careful rebalancing them, OK? It takes you minutes to decide, it takes us months to train.

6. CCP Rise, what makes you think Deimos is too good? It is the anti-Caldari vessel as it is intended to be. It is not that good versus explosive damage. Got my idea?


Dear players, hope you have noticed "OFFTOPIC" 7 paragraphs above. By posting these I just trying to revive discussions in Industrials, Med rails and Drone Aggro threads as there do not deserve abandoning them. Thanks.

Thanks
Taiyan Chork
Evil.Corp
#238 - 2013-08-10 11:22:12 UTC
Damnit, all the time training Gallente BS down the drain, should just have trained Ishtar instead, which is more mobile, has a better tank (due to T2 resistances) for the same bang (yes, railguns suck no matter if they are small, medium or large), and a blasterfit domi is not viable compared to mega or brutix etc.

I guess I will train for an Ishtar now :)
AstraPardus
Earthside Mixlabs
#239 - 2013-08-10 12:01:34 UTC
D'awwww....
Every time I post is Pardy time! :3
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#240 - 2013-08-10 12:42:46 UTC
LeAnys wrote:
+1 Support this change. As long year drone user i do not have problem with changing optimal and tracking 10% to 7,5%.

I will use Garde II with shortest, and Warde II with longest range for comparison.

old Dominix with 2x FNOTL:
Garde II 49,16km optimal - 61,16km with falloff - 0,059 tracking
Warden II 122,92km optimal - 134,92km with falloff - 0,0196 tracking

current Dominix with 2x FNOTL:
Garde II 73,75km optimal - 85,75km with falloff - 0,0885 tracking
Warden II 184,38km optimal - 196,38km with falloff - 0,0295 tracking

after 10% to 7,5% change Dominix with 2x FNOTL:
Garde II 63,91km optimal - 75,91km with falloff - 0,0767 tracking
Warden II 159,79km optimal - 171,16km with falloff - 0,0255 tracking

It will still have quite bonus to optimal and tracking if u ask me.






Fed Navy Omnis? Who does that?