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CCP, what is your planned order of changing ship class stats

First post First post
Author
Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#21 - 2013-08-09 19:20:35 UTC
mynnna wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Our balancing plan is based on numerous design discussions, intense brainstormings and has to go through the strictest review processes to be validated. But here it is.

We grab a 6-faced dice, then use the table below to act in consequence.

"Which ship should we look at next?"

  1. Marauders
  2. Black Ops
  3. Nerf bloodknight2's Nightmare (only his, no one else).
  4. Pirate ships
  5. New ships
  6. Tech3 cruisers
  7. EAFs


When we picked a class, we then take a 8-faced dice to decide how many high-slots we want. Repeat with mid and low slots. For values that go above the number of fingers on our two hands, we just roll our face on the digit part of the keyboard - that's why many of the hitpoint or mineral values have weird formatting like 135469213247. Twisted


Alright, more seriously, what's next on the menu?


  • Tech1 hulls are mostly done, even if that doesn't prevent us from iterating on them if need be. Except for capitals and supercapitals. Those will come late in the balancing plan as they play a part in Sovereignty warfare.

  • So now we are focusing on Tech2 hulls, as you noticed. We've started with HACs and Command Ships. Next on the line are Marauders (we have started looking at them). EAS and Black Ops are high in priority as well and will most likely come after that, depending on bandwidth. Once that's done, we'll look at other Tech2 hulls if need be. But we also want to fix some of the Tech2 manufacturers, like Roden Shipyards, which aren't great at all (mix of hybrids and missiles, bleargh).

  • Things start to become blurry from here - but in all probability we will have a look at Pirate Ships next. Depending on circumstances some may come above the other Tech2 hulls. Can't say for sure, Fozzie and Rise are machines sent from the future to kill Sarah Connor: they tend to stay in front of their computer all the time, even when I sleep or have a tasty croissant.

  • Once Tech1, 2 and Pirate / Navy hulls are in an acceptable state, we will need to dive in the Abyss(™) and look at Tech3s and our dear friends the (super)capitals. I'll make sure to be sick when that happens so that "honor" falls on the two freaks mentioned above P


Here you go, hope that helps. Remember all of this is subject to change, anywhere, anytime.


The Nullsec RMT Cartels approve of this order of balancing.



You know, since it's Dinsdale asking and all. Blink

Hey, at least they're starting to admit it now!

...

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#22 - 2013-08-09 19:35:13 UTC
Who actually cares about marauders? Stuff should be done in order of importance.
Drone 16
Holy Horde
#23 - 2013-08-09 19:49:12 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Who actually cares about marauders? Stuff should be done in order of importance.


Given the fact that both Fozzie and Rise are pvp-centric devs, I would bet that in the update they make Marauders have an increased role in PvP. I could be wrong but I just can't see them passing up the chance.

There is no rule that says that Marauders need to remain in the PVE domain. Cross your fingers, walk around your chair three times and sacrifice a Twinkie in the name of the Dev Duo of Balance and hopefully we will see a PvP/PvE monster that makes all sides happy.

It puts the peanutbutter on itself or it leaves the bonus round... - E1's greatest Hits

Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#24 - 2013-08-09 20:44:41 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
Please, for the EAS, to give a reason to train years of skills to fly a frigate with ECM instead of a cruiser of a battleship.

Just take that into account , that's the question the player should be asking. I hope you guys can give the EASs a real edge, especially over tech 3 cruisers. At least in terms of versatility , or direct range or strength Have you thought about expanding the grid and give them long range E-war as their advantage?
Fozzie has previously stated that an idea he was thinking about for EAFs was to give them the power to use their ewar on ships that are normally immune to ewar (like Supers). So yes, if this happens, you'll see fleets of disposable Kitsunes out jamming out Supers. The "super" tears, as they'd be, would be delicious. Pun absolutely intended. :P

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#25 - 2013-08-09 20:49:53 UTC
Drone 16 wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Who actually cares about marauders? Stuff should be done in order of importance.


Given the fact that both Fozzie and Rise are pvp-centric devs, I would bet that in the update they make Marauders have an increased role in PvP. I could be wrong but I just can't see them passing up the chance.

There is no rule that says that Marauders need to remain in the PVE domain. Cross your fingers, walk around your chair three times and sacrifice a Twinkie in the name of the Dev Duo of Balance and hopefully we will see a PvP/PvE monster that makes all sides happy.
Incidentally, Marauders can be used in pvp. Their small sensor strengths can be compensated for by ECCM, and they make pretty nasty ships, considering they have strong tank/gank and a host of utility highs. I'm not saying there may be some additional buffs to them to make them more viable in pvp; I just wouldn't necessarily expect it or even argue for it. Marauders are for sustained damage over the long(ish) time of a PVE mission environment. Pvp typically is about burst damage, so the two objectives are somewhat opposed.

Further, I expect some changes in the Blops field, possibly the introduction of new Blops BSs, so that each race could have one utility/brider and one combat-centric/ewar one. Obviously, the problem with that is the bridging BSs would just be ornaments to bridge and not much else, so I think this would be the concern in making dual roles. Is there room for dual roles? Absolutely. Look at how some Blops BSs are better with damage dealing than others. Is it necessary? Maybe not. Time will tell.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2013-08-09 20:50:29 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
Maximus Andendare wrote:
MotherMoon wrote:
Please, for the EAS, to give a reason to train years of skills to fly a frigate with ECM instead of a cruiser of a battleship.

Just take that into account , that's the question the player should be asking. I hope you guys can give the EASs a real edge, especially over tech 3 cruisers. At least in terms of versatility , or direct range or strength Have you thought about expanding the grid and give them long range E-war as their advantage?
Fozzie has previously stated that an idea he was thinking about for EAFs was to give them the power to use their ewar on ships that are normally immune to ewar (like Supers). So yes, if this happens, you'll see fleets of disposable Kitsunes out jamming out Supers. The "super" tears, as they'd be, would be delicious. Pun absolutely intended. :P


That sounds amazing

I wish they could get 100km range, to make hunting them down difficult , they are paper thin and super expensive. I don'ty would do veru see how well they would do verus a super at 30km range

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#27 - 2013-08-09 20:58:44 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Our balancing plan is based on numerous design discussions, intense brainstormings and has to go through the strictest review processes to be validated. But here it is.

We grab a 6-faced dice, then use the table below to act in consequence.

"Which ship should we look at next?"

  1. Marauders
  2. Black Ops
  3. Nerf bloodknight2's Nightmare (only his, no one else).
  4. Pirate ships
  5. New ships
  6. Tech3 cruisers
  7. EAFs


When we picked a class, we then take a 8-faced dice to decide how many high-slots we want. Repeat with mid and low slots. For values that go above the number of fingers on our two hands, we just roll our face on the digit part of the keyboard - that's why many of the hitpoint or mineral values have weird formatting like 135469213247. Twisted


Alright, more seriously, what's next on the menu?


  • Tech1 hulls are mostly done, even if that doesn't prevent us from iterating on them if need be. Except for capitals and supercapitals. Those will come late in the balancing plan as they play a part in Sovereignty warfare.

  • So now we are focusing on Tech2 hulls, as you noticed. We've started with HACs and Command Ships. Next on the line are Marauders (we have started looking at them). EAS and Black Ops are high in priority as well and will most likely come after that, depending on bandwidth. Once that's done, we'll look at other Tech2 hulls if need be. But we also want to fix some of the Tech2 manufacturers, like Roden Shipyards, which aren't great at all (mix of hybrids and missiles, bleargh).

  • Things start to become blurry from here - but in all probability we will have a look at Pirate Ships next. Depending on circumstances some may come above the other Tech2 hulls. Can't say for sure, Fozzie and Rise are machines sent from the future to kill Sarah Connor: they tend to stay in front of their computer all the time, even when I sleep or have a tasty croissant.

  • Once Tech1, 2 and Pirate / Navy hulls are in an acceptable state, we will need to dive in the Abyss(™) and look at Tech3s and our dear friends the (super)capitals. I'll make sure to be sick when that happens so that "honor" falls on the two freaks mentioned above P


Here you go, hope that helps. Remember all of this is subject to change, anywhere, anytime.


Are you making Marauders interesting or will they continue being completely irrelevant outside of doing terrible lvl 4 missions?

Paladin is way to pretty to not have a pvp role

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#28 - 2013-08-09 21:07:17 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Our balancing plan is based on numerous design discussions, intense brainstormings and has to go through the strictest review processes to be validated. But here it is.

We grab a 6-faced dice, then use the table below to act in consequence.

"Which ship should we look at next?"

  1. Marauders
  2. Black Ops
  3. Nerf bloodknight2's Nightmare (only his, no one else).
  4. Pirate ships
  5. New ships
  6. Tech3 cruisers
  7. EAFs


When we picked a class, we then take a 8-faced dice to decide how many high-slots we want. Repeat with mid and low slots. For values that go above the number of fingers on our two hands, we just roll our face on the digit part of the keyboard - that's why many of the hitpoint or mineral values have weird formatting like 135469213247. Twisted


Alright, more seriously, what's next on the menu?


  • Tech1 hulls are mostly done, even if that doesn't prevent us from iterating on them if need be. Except for capitals and supercapitals. Those will come late in the balancing plan as they play a part in Sovereignty warfare.

  • So now we are focusing on Tech2 hulls, as you noticed. We've started with HACs and Command Ships. Next on the line are Marauders (we have started looking at them). EAS and Black Ops are high in priority as well and will most likely come after that, depending on bandwidth. Once that's done, we'll look at other Tech2 hulls if need be. But we also want to fix some of the Tech2 manufacturers, like Roden Shipyards, which aren't great at all (mix of hybrids and missiles, bleargh).

  • Things start to become blurry from here - but in all probability we will have a look at Pirate Ships next. Depending on circumstances some may come above the other Tech2 hulls. Can't say for sure, Fozzie and Rise are machines sent from the future to kill Sarah Connor: they tend to stay in front of their computer all the time, even when I sleep or have a tasty croissant.

  • Once Tech1, 2 and Pirate / Navy hulls are in an acceptable state, we will need to dive in the Abyss(™) and look at Tech3s and our dear friends the (super)capitals. I'll make sure to be sick when that happens so that "honor" falls on the two freaks mentioned above P


Here you go, hope that helps. Remember all of this is subject to change, anywhere, anytime.


Are you making Marauders interesting or will they continue being completely irrelevant outside of doing terrible lvl 4 missions?

Paladin is way to pretty to not have a pvp role


While we don't see the Paladin in the AT, we do see a lot in the better armour incursion groups, and trust me, on a weekend, that IS PvP, as only the best groups get paid.

And yes, it is a beautiful ship.
As an aside, I truly wish CCP took the minnie shuttle model and gave it to some bitchin' combat frigate class.
Louis Robichaud
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2013-08-10 00:36:00 UTC
Sweet double-rainbow moose baby! CCP Ytterbium is clearly overpowered compared to any other posters and is need of a massive nerf. We can't hope to post like that! Big smile


A bit more seriously, I think the Assault frigates are in need of a bit of a buff. That being said, doing the marauders and blackops next seems to make a lot of sense.

I blog a bit http://hspew.blogspot.ca

Bob Blunts
#30 - 2013-08-10 00:40:30 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Our balancing plan is based on numerous design discussions, intense brainstormings and has to go through the strictest review processes to be validated. But here it is.

We grab a 6-faced dice, then use the table below to act in consequence.

"Which ship should we look at next?"

  1. Marauders
  2. Black Ops
  3. Nerf bloodknight2's Nightmare (only his, no one else).
  4. Pirate ships
  5. New ships
  6. Tech3 cruisers
  7. EAFs


When we picked a class, we then take a 8-faced dice to decide how many high-slots we want. Repeat with mid and low slots. For values that go above the number of fingers on our two hands, we just roll our face on the digit part of the keyboard - that's why many of the hitpoint or mineral values have weird formatting like 135469213247. Twisted


Alright, more seriously, what's next on the menu?


  • Tech1 hulls are mostly done, even if that doesn't prevent us from iterating on them if need be. Except for capitals and supercapitals. Those will come late in the balancing plan as they play a part in Sovereignty warfare.

  • So now we are focusing on Tech2 hulls, as you noticed. We've started with HACs and Command Ships. Next on the line are Marauders (we have started looking at them). EAS and Black Ops are high in priority as well and will most likely come after that, depending on bandwidth. Once that's done, we'll look at other Tech2 hulls if need be. But we also want to fix some of the Tech2 manufacturers, like Roden Shipyards, which aren't great at all (mix of hybrids and missiles, bleargh).

  • Things start to become blurry from here - but in all probability we will have a look at Pirate Ships next. Depending on circumstances some may come above the other Tech2 hulls. Can't say for sure, Fozzie and Rise are machines sent from the future to kill Sarah Connor: they tend to stay in front of their computer all the time, even when I sleep or have a tasty croissant.

  • Once Tech1, 2 and Pirate / Navy hulls are in an acceptable state, we will need to dive in the Abyss(™) and look at Tech3s and our dear friends the (super)capitals. I'll make sure to be sick when that happens so that "honor" falls on the two freaks mentioned above P


Here you go, hope that helps. Remember all of this is subject to change, anywhere, anytime.


This is a fine example right here of why CCP are the best dev's in the business. Love you guys.
Novah Soul
#31 - 2013-08-10 01:01:34 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Who actually cares about marauders? Stuff should be done in order of importance.

Count me among one of those whom care about Marauders. I use PvE as my primary income source and have been holding off on training/buying a marauder until the balance pass (I didn't wanna just finish getting one to have the expected performance possibly tweaked into a direction I didn't expect).

So, I am a tentatively happy lil Carebear right now. =P

A man is known by the quality of his friends. - Lex Luthor

Oxide Ammar
#32 - 2013-08-10 09:38:58 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Our balancing plan is based on numerous design discussions, intense brainstormings and has to go through the strictest review processes to be validated. But here it is.

We grab a 6-faced dice, then use the table below to act in consequence.

"Which ship should we look at next?"

  1. Marauders
  2. Black Ops
  3. Nerf bloodknight2's Nightmare (only his, no one else).
  4. Pirate ships
  5. New ships
  6. Tech3 cruisers
  7. EAFs


When we picked a class, we then take a 8-faced dice to decide how many high-slots we want. Repeat with mid and low slots. For values that go above the number of fingers on our two hands, we just roll our face on the digit part of the keyboard - that's why many of the hitpoint or mineral values have weird formatting like 135469213247. Twisted


Alright, more seriously, what's next on the menu?


  • Tech1 hulls are mostly done, even if that doesn't prevent us from iterating on them if need be. Except for capitals and supercapitals. Those will come late in the balancing plan as they play a part in Sovereignty warfare.

  • So now we are focusing on Tech2 hulls, as you noticed. We've started with HACs and Command Ships. Next on the line are Marauders (we have started looking at them). EAS and Black Ops are high in priority as well and will most likely come after that, depending on bandwidth. Once that's done, we'll look at other Tech2 hulls if need be. But we also want to fix some of the Tech2 manufacturers, like Roden Shipyards, which aren't great at all (mix of hybrids and missiles, bleargh).

  • Things start to become blurry from here - but in all probability we will have a look at Pirate Ships next. Depending on circumstances some may come above the other Tech2 hulls. Can't say for sure, Fozzie and Rise are machines sent from the future to kill Sarah Connor: they tend to stay in front of their computer all the time, even when I sleep or have a tasty croissant.

  • Once Tech1, 2 and Pirate / Navy hulls are in an acceptable state, we will need to dive in the Abyss(™) and look at Tech3s and our dear friends the (super)capitals. I'll make sure to be sick when that happens so that "honor" falls on the two freaks mentioned above P


Here you go, hope that helps. Remember all of this is subject to change, anywhere, anytime.


Where is the stealth bombers in this ? they have PG/CPU issues when you try to fit tech II torps and I was always this is bad design regarding this issue, rest are fine.

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#33 - 2013-08-10 12:51:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
I don't imagine Marauders becoming well used no matter how much you improve them for pvp they are just too expensive and T2 prices are increasing.

EAF's would be nice if they had more slots and survivability as a nice low SP/price version of recons .. on recons well the T2 manufacturers will play a key role here as a curse should be a missile boat not drones as its khanid , gallente need sorting out probably drones and missiles based and minnie would suit missiles T2 bellicose.. and then the falcon ... it would be nice if it had some offensive ability maybe missiles would work better than rails here.

Inties and AF's again T2 manufacturers as half of them make no sense looking at enyo here ... AF's have too many slots compared to navy frigs.... i would just like some consistency on slot allocations to navy/T2 it just seems random now.

It's a shame T3 are being left until last when they are the most urgent in need of rebalance... please reconsider bumping them up the list please.. as other ships will still be obsolete until these are done ( looking at underwhelming HAC's mainly).

P.S. prices of ships also need to be looked at HAC's are too expensive and they lack any cohesive focus really they are all a bit random .. from snipers to brawlers to a solitary attack ship (Vaga).
T3's will need a massive price drop after nerf.. logi's could do with a look at T1 logi is too strong also and ABC's need to be nerfed and preferably made T2 as they are OP and a specialisation much like logi using oversized highs.

Pirates .. serpentis are mainly falloff but vindi is tracking weird... webs are too strong and need a nerf along with reducing the web strength bonus on these ships... lasers need to be buffed also ... will help the 2 races using them sansha/Blood raiders

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Jamagh
Grand Violations
#34 - 2013-08-10 12:58:57 UTC
Jake Warbird wrote:
bloodknight2 wrote:
I swear i WILL kill a child and burn him in the name of Satan if CCP nerf my lovely nightmare!

Did you know that saying these things, even in jest, can actually get you imprisoned these days?


It could be that it is part of his religion.... Not sure if the human sacrifice part would be allowed under thefreedom of religion thing... but who knows.

Not defending the guy, just saying... some laws are really... grey in some areas.

"Please stop reopening silly rumor threads."  CCP Navigator.

Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#35 - 2013-08-10 13:16:34 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • So now we are focusing on Tech2 hulls, as you noticed. We've started with HACs and Command Ships. Next on the line are Marauders (we have started looking at them). EAS and Black Ops are high in priority as well and will most likely come after that, depending on bandwidth. Once that's done, we'll look at other Tech2 hulls if need be. But we also want to fix some of the Tech2 manufacturers, like Roden Shipyards, which aren't great at all (mix of hybrids and missiles, bleargh).


  • While we are at reworking T2:
    What do you think about a ship/role bonus that improves Overheating?
    I think Fozzie (?) wanted to create a Rig that improves the heat bonus, but got a problem with stacking. Then he mentioned something about "heat related Gang Links" last week.
    Overheating is a cool mechanism and adds more depth to battles, so I like the idea of emphasizing that. However, the place where you already tried that (T3 cruisers and their heat subsystem)... no one uses it.
    Maybe a T2-bonus would be worth another try. It would just affect one ship class, not so big stacking issues and then the implications could be observed.
    I think of an otherwise "average" combat hull that can become exceptional for a short while in whatever you fitted.
    Probably I am a bit late with this, maybe it would have been good for HACs, but anyway. What do you think?
    El 1974
    Green Visstick High
    #36 - 2013-08-10 13:22:18 UTC
    Deep Space Transports didn't make the shortlist?
    Dinsdale Pirannha
    Pirannha Corp
    #37 - 2013-08-10 13:43:13 UTC
    Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
    mynnna
    The Nullsec RMT Cartels approve of this order of balancing.

    You know, since it's Dinsdale asking and all. [;) wrote:

    Hey, at least they're starting to admit it now!


    When they are that smug about it, you know that their sense of power is very secure.
    Garviel Tarrant
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #38 - 2013-08-10 15:28:38 UTC
    Harvey James wrote:
    I don't imagine Marauders becoming well used no matter how much you improve them for pvp they are just too expensive and T2 prices are increasing.


    Yes.. you never see fleets with more faction BS's than t1..... ^^




    (Sarcasm btw)


    And to someone above, incursions are not PVP. Its grinding easy as balls sites four hours and hours.

    Again, like lvl 4 missions they are not an interesting role for marauders because those sites are already really really easy.

    BYDI recruitment closed-ish

    TrouserDeagle
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #39 - 2013-08-10 17:43:21 UTC
    El 1974 wrote:
    Deep Space Transports didn't make the shortlist?


    Apparently neither did AFs, interceptors, covops, bombers, interdictors, recon ships, heavy interdictors, blockade runners or jump freighters, even though they all need loads of changes.
    Cade Windstalker
    #40 - 2013-08-10 18:57:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
    Harvey James wrote:
    I don't imagine Marauders becoming well used no matter how much you improve them for pvp they are just too expensive and T2 prices are increasing.

    Navy Megathron Fleets, what?
    Also T2 prices are going up because the war between Test and Goons is mucking with the flow of T2 components, when that dies down we'll see a dip in prices.
    Harvey James wrote:
    Inties and AF's again T2 manufacturers as half of them make no sense looking at enyo here ... AF's have too many slots compared to navy frigs.... i would just like some consistency on slot allocations to navy/T2 it just seems random now.

    AFs and Navy frigs are probably never going to be exactly comparable, they will likely get swept up in the big pirate balance pass though (the Navy frigs anyway).
    Harvey James wrote:
    It's a shame T3 are being left until last when they are the most urgent in need of rebalance... please reconsider bumping them up the list please.. as other ships will still be obsolete until these are done ( looking at underwhelming HAC's mainly).

    If anything this is a reason to leave them for last, so you have good feedback on where the other ships are sitting and can rebalance based on that. Doing T3s without that would likely mean having to do them twice because they have several rolls that overlap with nearly everything else on that list in some way.
    Harvey James wrote:
    P.S. prices of ships also need to be looked at HAC's are too expensive and they lack any cohesive focus really they are all a bit random .. from snipers to brawlers to a solitary attack ship (Vaga).
    T3's will need a massive price drop after nerf.. logi's could do with a look at T1 logi is too strong also and ABC's need to be nerfed and preferably made T2 as they are OP and a specialisation much like logi using oversized highs.
    Pirates .. serpentis are mainly falloff but vindi is tracking weird... webs are too strong and need a nerf along with reducing the web strength bonus on these ships... lasers need to be buffed also ... will help the 2 races using them sansha/Blood raiders

    This is a rather long list of "please nerf this". I wouldn't hold your breath, especially on stuff they've already balanced like T1 logi, or the cost of HACs which is set more or less by the player-base, not CCP.
    El 1974 wrote:
    Deep Space Transports didn't make the shortlist?

    Probably going to depend heavily on data from the hauler changes, hence it's not on the list at the moment.