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Wormholes

 
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What is wrong with wormhole space?

First post First post
Author
Kast Agnet
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2013-08-09 09:44:42 UTC
Roime wrote:
Nerf T3s so other ships become comparably more viable, and I'll consider moving back to w-space. Two years of Cloaky Proteus Online was boring as hell.

This is ........... well I don't know what it is tbh. If you sat in a cloaky prot for 2 years doing nothing then .. you know I read it again and it still doesn't make any sense.


Kast Agnet
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2013-08-09 09:47:45 UTC
Chitsa Jason wrote:
Thank you everyone for your suggestions. Please do not forget to post how your suggested change will impact the game as well.


Chitsa I think we'd like to hear, based on the ideas so far, what you have shortlisted.

There's a LOT of info come through here and just reposting it over again would just create a threadnaught. Bullet point what you believe are valid things to take to CCP from info gathered so far in this thread into a new thread and we'll start over.

Kast
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#43 - 2013-08-09 09:48:24 UTC
Kast Agnet wrote:
Roime wrote:
Nerf T3s so other ships become comparably more viable, and I'll consider moving back to w-space. Two years of Cloaky Proteus Online was boring as hell.

This is ........... well I don't know what it is tbh. If you sat in a cloaky prot for 2 years doing nothing then .. you know I read it again and it still doesn't make any sense.




I did stuff in that Proteus, I just enjoy a greater variety of ships and ship classes than is currently common in w-space.

.

Kast Agnet
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2013-08-09 09:59:11 UTC
Roime wrote:


I did stuff in that Proteus, I just enjoy a greater variety of ships and ship classes than is currently common in w-space.



I still don't get it ( "I did stuff in that prot" is just TMI really) but what? You wanna fly another ship type in a WH? Fly another ship type. Are you talking PvE/PvP are you moaning because a T3 cloaky prot is boring? In which case don't fly one.

There's just doesn't seem anything coherent or of substance here. What exactly is wrong with T3's and how does it relate to WH's and how would you fix it?
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#45 - 2013-08-09 10:07:01 UTC
Kast Agnet wrote:
Roime wrote:


I did stuff in that Proteus, I just enjoy a greater variety of ships and ship classes than is currently common in w-space.



I still don't get it ( "I did stuff in that prot" is just TMI really) but what? You wanna fly another ship type in a WH? Fly another ship type. Are you talking PvE/PvP are you moaning because a T3 cloaky prot is boring? In which case don't fly one.

There's just doesn't seem anything coherent or of substance here. What exactly is wrong with T3's and how does it relate to WH's and how would you fix it?


Yeah I can see you don't get it, but it's rather simple really- when a ship or ship class is so universally viable for every small gang engagement in wormholes, why fly anything else? Every other option is suboptimal. Flying the same ship every day is more boring than being able to find suitable fights for any ship class.

I'd remove one rig slot from T3s and drop their fittings by just a tiny bit.


.

Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#46 - 2013-08-09 10:18:51 UTC
Personal hangers - Great idea, but they are a nightmare. Can't remove items from them left by players. Impossible to transfer items between multiple characters, or between players, all needs to be done in space. Also, far too small for anyone actually wanting to deal in amounts of materials, mining / PI / Industry is out of the question. Most are forced to use the old system. IMO, Allow CEO/directors to be able to see and remove items. Allow players to transfer items between players using it. Increase its storage size.

  • Effect? Increased corporation security, allowing more people to move to wormhole space.


SMA - Still completely unsecure. Need a version similar to the Personal Hanger, but without all its flaws.

  • Effect? Same as above.


Corporation roles - Needed some love forever now. There definately needs to be a way to allow people to manufacture / research without compromising corporation security. Making it more user-friendly too wouldn't hurt.

  • Effect? Same again.

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  

Jay Joringer
13.
#47 - 2013-08-09 10:21:57 UTC
Roime wrote:
Kast Agnet wrote:
Roime wrote:


I did stuff in that Proteus, I just enjoy a greater variety of ships and ship classes than is currently common in w-space.



I still don't get it ( "I did stuff in that prot" is just TMI really) but what? You wanna fly another ship type in a WH? Fly another ship type. Are you talking PvE/PvP are you moaning because a T3 cloaky prot is boring? In which case don't fly one.

There's just doesn't seem anything coherent or of substance here. What exactly is wrong with T3's and how does it relate to WH's and how would you fix it?


Yeah I can see you don't get it, but it's rather simple really- when a ship or ship class is so universally viable for every small gang engagement in wormholes, why fly anything else? Every other option is suboptimal. Flying the same ship every day is more boring than being able to find suitable fights for any ship class.

I'd remove one rig slot from T3s and drop their fittings by just a tiny bit.




"A bad workman always blames his tools."
Chitsa Jason
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#48 - 2013-08-09 10:43:47 UTC
Kast Agnet wrote:
Chitsa Jason wrote:
Thank you everyone for your suggestions. Please do not forget to post how your suggested change will impact the game as well.


Chitsa I think we'd like to hear, based on the ideas so far, what you have shortlisted.

There's a LOT of info come through here and just reposting it over again would just create a threadnaught. Bullet point what you believe are valid things to take to CCP from info gathered so far in this thread into a new thread and we'll start over.

Kast


I have not shortlisted anything yet. Gonna get to work on it today after i finish scanning the chain :)

Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#49 - 2013-08-09 10:52:53 UTC
Kast Agnet wrote:
Roime wrote:


I did stuff in that Proteus, I just enjoy a greater variety of ships and ship classes than is currently common in w-space.



I still don't get it ( "I did stuff in that prot" is just TMI really) but what? You wanna fly another ship type in a WH? Fly another ship type. Are you talking PvE/PvP are you moaning because a T3 cloaky prot is boring? In which case don't fly one.

There's just doesn't seem anything coherent or of substance here. What exactly is wrong with T3's and how does it relate to WH's and how would you fix it?


Afaik the ways to kill a T3 fleet without just bringing more firewower is to just kill the logistics, or somewhat render the logistics useless (scanres damping, target switching - ecm is kinda meh against 40+ sensors), since everyone flies guardians/basis in a serious fleet. Then again, even with only maybe 2 hostile logistics still running free, that's probably still enough to remotetank another 20-man gang.
Since it works both ways, a lot of the times of two T3-blobs engaging each other, one of the blobs is outnumbered and still not losing a single ship, just keeping up the status quo right there, while the other blob doesn't even break a sweat.
Example: We got baited by a 5-man-fleet, attacked with 2 lokis, a legion and 2 guardians (which was what we had) landed and started fighting. Over the next 10 minutes, they warped their actual fleet in (two handfuls of more ships) and some 20 minutes later, they called for help and brought another 10 from one of their blue corps. So against 25 people (3 of them guardians), we held the line with our initial fleet and 2 more guardians that logged in. After around one hour, they started retreating. I believe we lost a Tempest cause everyone got a jerk in corp who can't differentiate between strat and BS.

Outcome: Tanking 20 ships (Tech-IIIs, Some Pirate-BS, Command Ships) with 4 guards, while neuted by bhaalgorns. Check.

This is just stupid.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#50 - 2013-08-09 11:03:26 UTC
Jay Joringer wrote:
Roime wrote:
Kast Agnet wrote:
Roime wrote:


I did stuff in that Proteus, I just enjoy a greater variety of ships and ship classes than is currently common in w-space.



I still don't get it ( "I did stuff in that prot" is just TMI really) but what? You wanna fly another ship type in a WH? Fly another ship type. Are you talking PvE/PvP are you moaning because a T3 cloaky prot is boring? In which case don't fly one.

There's just doesn't seem anything coherent or of substance here. What exactly is wrong with T3's and how does it relate to WH's and how would you fix it?


Yeah I can see you don't get it, but it's rather simple really- when a ship or ship class is so universally viable for every small gang engagement in wormholes, why fly anything else? Every other option is suboptimal. Flying the same ship every day is more boring than being able to find suitable fights for any ship class.

I'd remove one rig slot from T3s and drop their fittings by just a tiny bit.




"A bad workman always blames his tools."


How is that any way related to anything that was said? :D

.

Jay Joringer
13.
#51 - 2013-08-09 11:27:36 UTC
Roime wrote:
Jay Joringer wrote:
Roime wrote:
Kast Agnet wrote:
Roime wrote:


I did stuff in that Proteus, I just enjoy a greater variety of ships and ship classes than is currently common in w-space.



I still don't get it ( "I did stuff in that prot" is just TMI really) but what? You wanna fly another ship type in a WH? Fly another ship type. Are you talking PvE/PvP are you moaning because a T3 cloaky prot is boring? In which case don't fly one.

There's just doesn't seem anything coherent or of substance here. What exactly is wrong with T3's and how does it relate to WH's and how would you fix it?


Yeah I can see you don't get it, but it's rather simple really- when a ship or ship class is so universally viable for every small gang engagement in wormholes, why fly anything else? Every other option is suboptimal. Flying the same ship every day is more boring than being able to find suitable fights for any ship class.

I'd remove one rig slot from T3s and drop their fittings by just a tiny bit.




"A bad workman always blames his tools."


How is that any way related to anything that was said? :D



You're not doing yourself any favours here, fella. You complain that flying what you call 'optimal' is boring (I don't agree it is optimal, but hey). Solution is simple: fly sub-optimal or come up with new ideas.

What's it got to do with anything you said? Stop picking rock. There's always someone who will pick paper.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2013-08-09 11:56:53 UTC
Winthorp wrote:
Bloody Wench wrote:
Stop crying for C4 changes...WTF

Leave the statics as they are.

Stop the calls for homogenization already.


Well they are not fine at all, your carebear paradise will not last forever.


Why is it a carebear paradise, because you can't get your caps into it to hulk smash with your alliance what are typically 5 man corps?

Is that why it's a carebear paradise?

I've lived in a C4 before.....got booted out when we SB'd an alliances noctis full of sleeper loot something like 600mil worth. They weren't happy. And they came back a week later to exact revenge. Maybe you shouldn't be so lazy?

Don't ban me, bro!

Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#53 - 2013-08-09 12:06:41 UTC
You're missing the issue- the paper to T3 rock is another rock. Sure you can fly other stuff, we all did and do it, but it's giving your opponent one ahead "just because". And every time the **** get serious in w-space, it's T3s or go home and literally nobody disagrees with this.

It's not like I'm the only one who thinks T3 meta gets boring after a while, just like every other monotype doctrine. And this is why nerfing T3s slightly, together with the upcoming buffs to other relevant classes would add more variety on the field. Not sure why anyone would oppose variety and options.

It's dramatically different from lowsec, where people fly everything from T1 frigs to supers, and have good fights. No choice is sub-optimal.





.

Kalel Nimrott
Caldari Provisions
#54 - 2013-08-09 12:34:03 UTC
Roime wrote:
Nerf T3s so other ships become comparably more viable, and I'll consider moving back to w-space. Two years of Cloaky Proteus Online was boring as hell.



http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18699537

Less than two hours old Proty. 800mill. I wasn't doing it wrong, we just got a bit outnumbered. Not that op without numbers.

Bob Artis, you will be missed.

O7

Jay Joringer
13.
#55 - 2013-08-09 12:46:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Jay Joringer
Roime wrote:
And every time the **** get serious in w-space, it's T3s or go home and literally nobody disagrees with this.


That's where you're wrong, bud. I'm happy to disagree with that right here, right now. They're not the be all and end all. I won't elaborate because if you can't get your head around that for yourself, then I wont miss your stagnant thinking in WH space.

Variety is always there if you've got the talent or the cojones to fly it.

***edit***

What? I can't even say balls in spanish?
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2013-08-09 12:46:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
Roime wrote:
You're missing the issue- the paper to T3 rock is another rock. Sure you can fly other stuff, we all did and do it, but it's giving your opponent one ahead "just because". And every time the **** get serious in w-space, it's T3s or go home and literally nobody disagrees with this.

It's not like I'm the only one who thinks T3 meta gets boring after a while, just like every other monotype doctrine. And this is why nerfing T3s slightly, together with the upcoming buffs to other relevant classes would add more variety on the field. Not sure why anyone would oppose variety and options.

It's dramatically different from lowsec, where people fly everything from T1 frigs to supers, and have good fights. No choice is sub-optimal.



T3's are not your problem as you've defined it.

I'm guessing you were sitting cloaked in your proteus, right?

I know I troll and joke a lot but in all seriousness I think I know the problem. It's the lack of viable cloaky combat ships. See, in null & lo, they have this thing. It's called a cyno/bridge. They can project onto their targets an unknown fleet. In w-space, we don't have that. Instead, we maintain our dps fleets either one or two hops away if they aren't cloaky or we have a cloaky T3 fleet in the same systems where the action is to take place. We don't want our composition to be intelled away from dscan.

In terms of tactics, a cloaky T3 fleet in w-space is equivalent to a fleet in null/lo that is about to cyno in. If CCP could address this issue adequately so that our w-space fleets aren't at a disadvantage to outsiders who come into us, a T3 nerf is not going to be as painful as it might sound, economics issues withstanding.

To offer the variety that you're looking for would require a new mod or new class of ships that are affected by an effect ubiquitous to w-space which would allow them to cloak. If it's a new mod then we're going to have to give up a slot that would otherwise put us at a disadvantage to a similarly fit ship of the same hull but without cloakiness. If it's a new class of ships then it probably won't resolve the lack of variety.

Personally, it's not the ship I fly from which I gain enjoyment. It's the hunt, it's the uncertainty, the jousting, the local trash talk and of course the tears. For me, the ship has little to do with it.

Don't ban me, bro!

Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#57 - 2013-08-09 12:53:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
Roime wrote:
It's dramatically different from lowsec, where people fly everything from T1 frigs to supers, and have good fights. No choice is sub-optimal.

confirming that in LS, T1 cruisers pwn T3s all the time.
if you fly a 5 man T1 cruiser gang in LS and run into 5 T3s, youre still going to die horribly in a fire, just like in WHs.
literally the only reason WHers fly T3s is because they can afford it and yes, the most expensive cruisers in the game with the highest skill requs and the biggest penalty on loss of any ship SHOULD be the best thing you can buy in it's ship class. Im never going to understand why anyone would think that they should not be.

if you want to fly T1 junk in WHs, go ahead, many people do.
I have been lately with corp and we've had some fun fights.
that said, i also enjoy flying my tengus, prots and lokis (i dont fly legions cos, well, why the hell would anyone fly a legion...)

as for cloaky T3s, from my experience the only thing they do is die horribly.
as a scout, covops is far superior.
as a combat ship, any T1 BC is better
as for hard tackle, sure, i guess. but in virtually all situations, a covops does the just just as well for initial tackle.

T3s are going to get nerfed anyway because most people in eve are poor and also a bunch of whiners who have been shouting at CCP to do it and since CCP dont actually play their game or understand how T3s interact with other ships, theyre going to do it.
The absolute LAST thing we need is the CSM to back them on it.

PS: the counter to T3s in not more T3s, it's actually thinking about what T3s are weak against and exploiting that. pro tip: t3s are very weak against a LOT of thing.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Pobunjenik
Resbroko Liberation Fleet
#58 - 2013-08-09 13:04:16 UTC
Bookmark roles.
CEO assigns roles to players to add BMs, and there should be a special role to remove BMs.
If we can't have that, at least give us a PROPER bookmark log.
Right now, we can see who added which bookmark, where the bookmark is located (region, constellation and system), distance in jumps, as well as the date and exact time of addition.

So overhaul this into a separate window where who and when added would be placed alongside of who removed and when.
The rest (location, name, distance) is fine as it is.
Chitsa Jason
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#59 - 2013-08-09 13:07:21 UTC
Guys you can stop talking about T3s. Its not T3 rebalance thread.

Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me

M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Stay Feral
#60 - 2013-08-09 13:09:24 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
HerrBert wrote:

- dreadnaughts clearing core sides in a quarter of a siege cycle...(maybe add Sleeper Battleship escalations)


Anyone using a dread to clear a Ladar ought to lose their dread, in 5 minutes you can use 4 Tengus to clear it, or you can sit there in siege hoping nobody rolls into your hole and blaps you while you wait.

We always use Tengus, so I don't know who in their right mind is using Dreads for LADARS...



HMM

I never new Core Garrison and Core strongholds were ladar sites.


Too many cores in W-Space... we use "core" to talk about ladars

Core Garrison and Core Stronghold = Anom cause they're not that different when just doing the escalations.
Core = Vital Core/Instrumental core

And with 10 dreads (with no effects) it takes about 5 minutes to clear a full escelation, when they all warp in at once.
But by all means, please add more escalations Twisted

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.