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[Odyssey 1.1] Dominix bonus change

First post First post
Author
Irya Boone
The Scope
#181 - 2013-08-09 09:32:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Irya Boone
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Irya Boone wrote:
and why not for a change a Really Big Bonus to Ewar drones ( because except for ecm drones , people don't really use TD or SD drones )


Someone didn't watch AT it seems. Big smile



No sorry .. i was tryng to explain to my opponents ...

Once the word is given, teams warp in to the beacon at a range of their choosing, up to a maximum of 50 km. Team members are allowed to warp in at different ranges.

The arena will measure 125 km radius around the central beacon.

The host will begin a countdown. When the countdown ends, the host will break target locks of all ships in the arena.

If a player warps out/leaves the arena, his/her ship will be destroyed. This includes disconnection emergency warps. This rule is in effect before and during the match.

Warping within the arena is NOT allowed.

Dropping cargo containers or other anchorable items is NOT allowed. Dropping regular jettison containers is allowed.

The following restrictions are in place after teams warp to the arena beacon, until the match begins:

Locking players before the match starts is NOT allowed.
Activating aggressive or targeted modules before the match starts is NOT allowed.
Launching drones before the match starts is NOT allowed.
Moving before the match starts is NOT allowed.

Boarding a ship during the match is not allowed.


you Know ... real daily pvp where people use a lot of TD , SD, EN drones .... everyday .....!!


and per you made a point drones are for gallente ships and now with have almost the same bonus like other races.

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB

Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#182 - 2013-08-09 09:49:24 UTC
Irya Boone wrote:
No sorry .. i was tryng to explain to my opponents ...


Who says you can't do what Verge did in this match ... everyday!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVgki6chF7g
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#183 - 2013-08-09 09:49:55 UTC
Haven't had a chance to fly the Odyssey 1.0 Dominix yet, so I can't really offer an opinion on that front.

However, on the issue of the bonus: apparently what we refer to as "bonus" comes from the Latin bonum, a good thing ("bonus" in Latin meant a good man), the plural of which was bona. English being the way it is, things kind of evolved, to the point where "bonuses" became an acceptable plural for "bonus".

More importantly, the plural of "Dominix" is "potatoes".

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt

Sigras
Conglomo
#184 - 2013-08-09 09:54:30 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
What feedback where they getting to start? Where were the countless topics saying "OMFG DAT DOMI TOO GOOD NERF IT NAO!!!111"

Who asked them to make this change? Especially when there have been countless topics to do something about the ability to AFK while cloaked, Logi UI issues and lack of Killboard, Drone UI, etc..

people dont usually ask for a nerf to cheap easy to fly easy to train for super OP ships, they just usually fly them.

also you are really an idiot if you think the same person making balance changes would also be making UI changes or code changes.

Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
We were idiots when we thought the first nerf to the Drake was going to be anything but a long line of blame the Drake for everything. And now we want the Domi to be that again? I think not. Stop the nerf to an already balanced ship now and it won't be further nerfed later.

This is an unwanted, pointless change that further punishes those who bother to train to actually fly these ships. On a ship that is already balanced.

It is a complete waste of development resources when far more important changes need the time now.

you think it is balanced they think it is not, and considering they:
#1 dont have a vested interest in the dominix like you do
#2 have more metrics to look at than you do
#3 are both experienced PvPers

theyre probably right.

Also, I love how you think development resources are this magical liquid resource that can quickly be re-purposed to whatever you think is necessary . . . please tell me how the drone UI will be helped by CCP Fozzie and Rise twiddling their thumbs not doing anything because thats about how much influence they have over the drone UI
Brakko Mussua
Doomheim
#185 - 2013-08-09 10:28:50 UTC
CCP Rise thinking anyone cares for his ******** WoW Arenas and nerfinf everyone sandbox because of a ******** event no oenc ares about... way to go ccp..
Lord Road
People's Democratic Republic of Gatecamping
Muh Zkill...
#186 - 2013-08-09 10:29:57 UTC
Can you please rename this thread into:

"CCP Mittani wants N3 domi fleets out of the picture" ?


that's better, thank you
Artimis kraw
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#187 - 2013-08-09 10:45:27 UTC
Altaen wrote:
I don't think this is a needed change. It's not soul crushing, and I'm not going to rage about it, but clearly you are targeting how powerful sentry drones are with their massive tracking and range.

Thing is, I strongly believe this massive power is well-balanced by the fact that sentry drones are stationary.

If you need to move about the battlefield to tackle things, mitigate damage, provide RR, leave grid and return, etc, you are making the decision to leave the vast majority of your DPS behind if the battle suddenly moves to another grid, or forcing yourself/your fleet to have to slowboat to your sentries and pick them up before you can participate at the battle's new location.

Considering this weakness of a Dominix-based fleet comp, it's okay that their damage projection and tracking are a little OP.

I would understand reducing the range and tracking if there are plans to make sentry drones move at even half the speed of heavies, but assuming they will remain stationary, at least in regards to their use on battleships (carriers are a different story entirely) I think it's perfectly okay for them to be extremely powerful on a single battleship platform.

And in regards to the AT... the very fact that the entire engagement is forced to take place on a single grid is why the Dominix was a bit overpowered. This isn't how fights on TQ work, so I disagree with the nerf. Just make it more expensive on points for future tournaments, nbd.


^ man speaks the truth.
Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#188 - 2013-08-09 10:47:00 UTC
Marc Callan wrote:


More importantly, the plural of "Dominix" is "potatoes".


And we have a winner!! Lol

Thread closed
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#189 - 2013-08-09 11:27:12 UTC
Quote:
I don't think this is a needed change. It's not soul crushing, and I'm not going to rage about it, but clearly you are targeting how powerful sentry drones are with their massive tracking and range.


You're right that there's some distinct disadvantages to using drones (and sentries especially), but think about all the ways the ship is already accounting for that. The biggest one is that it gets more bonuses to its primary weapons than a missile or turret based ship would. This one bonus is giving +50% optimal AND +50% tracking; imagine a Megathron or Maelstrom with that kind of bonus. Drone disadvantages are also balanced by things like having a free top rack that you can use to get even more damage or pick up tons of utility or the ability to switch weapon sizes and damage types freely.

@ccp_rise

DP Lip
Doped Player's Inc.
#190 - 2013-08-09 11:28:52 UTC
right.... sentry's drones dominated the tournament and this nerf is good Pirate
amurder Hakomairos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#191 - 2013-08-09 11:29:48 UTC  |  Edited by: amurder Hakomairos
Sigras wrote:

you think it is balanced they think it is not, and considering they:
#1 dont have a vested interest in the dominix like you do
#2 have more metrics to look at than you do
#3 are both experienced PvPers

theyre probably right.



No, they are not right. Or at least they haven't bothered to provide any evidence that suggests that they are. I spent 20+ days training Gallente BS 5 based on the ship bonuses presented by CCP in the BS rebalance. Rise spent 20 seconds writing a post here saying that they are reducing the bonus basically because they can even though he said himself "The Dominix hasn't been oppressively powerful". Yeah, that sounds like something that needs a nerf.

I understand at times nerfs are necessary. Sometimes CCP implements something on TQ while its still half-baked (SCs, Titans, etc) and sometimes a mechanic is broken or a set of modules is so powerful its game breaking and needs to be adjusted (remote doomsday, nano age). But to nerf the Dominix, without any reason listed to justify it, while none of the other recently rebalanced battleships are being adjusted, is unacceptable.

Rise, if you are going to do this I expect you to at least put an hour into a decent post in this thread to justify why the change is being made. Show us the stats/metrics/information that you have that show why this bonus change is necessary.


CCP Rise wrote:

You're right that there's some distinct disadvantages to using drones (and sentries especially), but think about all the ways the ship is already accounting for that. The biggest one is that it gets more bonuses to its primary weapons than a missile or turret based ship would. This one bonus is giving +50% optimal AND +50% tracking; imagine a Megathron or Maelstrom with that kind of bonus. Drone disadvantages are also balanced by things like having a free top rack that you can use to get even more damage or pick up tons of utility or the ability to switch weapon sizes and damage types freely.


Please explain to me how any of this translates into a need to adjust the bonus, because all of this sounds to me like more "we are changing this because we can, not because its breaking the game". Yes, the Dominix has more bonus to its primary weapons. Its primary weapons also have a lot of disadvantages that other weapon types do not have. The turrets on your Mega or Mael cannot be destroyed and dont require you to sit still to use them. Also, the Domi has no other weapon bonuses, have you thrown 4-5 unbonused guns on a ship and seen what kind of dps increase that is? Its basically useless.
Hell Bitch
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#192 - 2013-08-09 11:36:54 UTC
amurder Hakomairos wrote:
Sigras wrote:

you think it is balanced they think it is not, and considering they:
#1 dont have a vested interest in the dominix like you do
#2 have more metrics to look at than you do
#3 are both experienced PvPers

theyre probably right.



No, they are not right. Or at least they haven't bothered to provide any evidence that suggests that they are. I spent 20+ days training Gallente BS 5 based on the ship bonuses presented by CCP in the BS rebalance. Rise spent 20 seconds writing a post here saying that they are reducing the bonus basically because they can even though he said himself "The Dominix hasn't been oppressively powerful". Yeah, that sounds like something that needs a nerf.

I understand at times nerfs are necessary. Sometimes CCP implements something on TQ while its still half-baked (SCs, Titans, etc) and sometimes a mechanic is broken or a set of modules is so powerful its game breaking and needs to be adjusted (remote doomsday, nano age). But to nerf the Dominix, without any reason listed to justify it, while none of the other recently rebalanced battleships are being adjusted, is unacceptable.

Rise, if you are going to do this I expect you to at least put an hour into a decent post in this thread to justify why the change is being made. Show us the stats/metrics/information that you have that show why this bonus change is necessary.



Dude, chill.

I'm in the same boat (well my main is) having just trained Gallente battleship V, and even after this 'nerf' the Domi will still be one of the most bitching battleships ever.

If the Domi wasn't changed how many other drone baots would you see, even if you'd have previously used an Ishtar for something you'd be trying to use a Domi in the same role, just because the un nerfed bonuses were that much stronger.

Drone pilots need something other than a Domi to use, and boosting all other drone ships up to the Domis level just to remain competitive would just be ********. It had to happen.
Alghara
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
#193 - 2013-08-09 11:45:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Alghara
amurder Hakomairos wrote:
Sigras wrote:

you think it is balanced they think it is not, and considering they:
#1 dont have a vested interest in the dominix like you do
#2 have more metrics to look at than you do
#3 are both experienced PvPers

theyre probably right.



No, they are not right. Or at least they haven't bothered to provide any evidence that suggests that they are. I spent 20+ days training Gallente BS 5 based on the ship bonuses presented by CCP in the BS rebalance. Rise spent 20 seconds writing a post here saying that they are reducing the bonus basically because they can even though he said himself "The Dominix hasn't been oppressively powerful". Yeah, that sounds like something that needs a nerf.

I understand at times nerfs are necessary. Sometimes CCP implements something on TQ while its still half-baked (SCs, Titans, etc) and sometimes a mechanic is broken or a set of modules is so powerful its game breaking and needs to be adjusted (remote doomsday, nano age). But to nerf the Dominix, without any reason listed to justify it, while none of the other recently rebalanced battleships are being adjusted, is unacceptable.

Rise, if you are going to do this I expect you to at least put an hour into a decent post in this thread to justify why the change is being made. Show us the stats/metrics/information that you have that show why this bonus change is necessary.


CCP Rise wrote:

You're right that there's some distinct disadvantages to using drones (and sentries especially), but think about all the ways the ship is already accounting for that. The biggest one is that it gets more bonuses to its primary weapons than a missile or turret based ship would. This one bonus is giving +50% optimal AND +50% tracking; imagine a Megathron or Maelstrom with that kind of bonus. Drone disadvantages are also balanced by things like having a free top rack that you can use to get even more damage or pick up tons of utility or the ability to switch weapon sizes and damage types freely.


Please explain to me how any of this translates into a need to adjust the bonus, because all of this sounds to me like more "we are changing this because we can, not because its breaking the game". Yes, the Dominix has more bonus to its primary weapons. Its primary weapons also have a lot of disadvantages that other weapon types do not have. The turrets on your Mega or Mael cannot be destroyed and dont require you to sit still to use them. Also, the Domi has no other weapon bonuses, have you thrown 4-5 unbonused guns on a ship and seen what kind of dps increase that is? Its basically useless.


Because you have to much tracking. Now you have the BS tanking and the cruiser tracking. The result is very simple to understand, you can one shoot about all freg size in afterburner (add in middle slot some target painter, on neutra in high).

The BS size need to be tackle by freg size.

Now the dominix have too much tracking range and alpha. The choice is to keep the alpha but decrease a little the tracking and the range. for the fleet is not a problem you have just to add some painter or long range web ship (rapier etc). And you domi fleet keep crazy.

Personally, I believe CCP need to nerf also the sentry :

Remove the possibility to assign the sentry like EW drone.

Because not it's really the lazy mode to make some pvp. Add a lot of people on you fleet assign sentry and go take a coffee, you FC work for you...

The pilot need to be active during the fight, or CCP perhaps need to add some new option. The possibility to assign the guns ..

Remove the possibility to assign drone will be also great against slowcat fleet (carrier).
Mohadib Flagrante
Doomheim
#194 - 2013-08-09 11:53:14 UTC
Anharat wrote:
>has nothing to do with the tournament
>publishes the change right after the tournament
seems legit




In case noone has said this yet...

Probably has more too do with the fountain war and the Domi fleets fielded there, than the tourny.
amurder Hakomairos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#195 - 2013-08-09 12:05:52 UTC
Alghara wrote:

Because you have to much tracking. Now you have the BS tanking and the cruiser tracking. The result is very simple to understand, you can one shoot about all freg size in afterburner (add in middle slot some target painter, on neutra in high).

The BS size need to be tackle by freg size.



Why does the BS need to be tackled by frig size? A stationary sentry domi can be easily tackled by MWD Drake.
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
#196 - 2013-08-09 12:08:11 UTC
Should consider an in game fix versus an across the board nerf.

I'd like so see a form of ECM that affects drone boats -either a remote burst module, a ECM smart bomb, or some way to break "assigned" drones from their assignee for a period of time. The now unassigned drones will not fire unless the drone boat manually targets them or manually reassigns them after the cool down period (20 seconds?).

Drone doctrines will still work, but will have another specific counter that will keep pilots at the keyboard. Hell, add TD and SD bombs as well (that only affect drones on account of weak electronics). Then add sensor/tracking compenstion skills for drones and make the whole situation richer and more complicated, rather than a simple nerf.

I am not an alt of Chribba.

Sirinda
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
#197 - 2013-08-09 12:12:52 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Hell ***** wrote:
bonus's (boni, i know)


NO!

The plural of bonus is bonuses

Anyone who tells you otherwise is an uneducated pretentious idiot.


'Boni' would be correct in German, but we do have problems with special snowflakes saying 'Bonis'.

Because nobody injects the Language Mastery skillbook anymore.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#198 - 2013-08-09 12:23:43 UTC
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:
Should consider an in game fix versus an across the board nerf.

I'd like so see a form of ECM that affects drone boats -either a remote burst module, a ECM smart bomb, or some way to break "assigned" drones from their assignee for a period of time
. The now unassigned drones will not fire unless the drone boat manually targets them or manually reassigns them after the cool down period (20 seconds?).

Drone doctrines will still work, but will have another specific counter that will keep pilots at the keyboard. Hell, add TD and SD bombs as well (that only affect drones on account of weak electronics). Then add sensor/tracking compenstion skills for drones and make the whole situation richer and more complicated, rather than a simple nerf.


The list of modules that can accomplish this is long. Unlike almost all other weapons, drones can simply be shot, and they don't have that many HP. You can Bomb, Smartbomb, or individualy target them just fine, and destroying one or causing the owner to pull it in will break the locks and assignations every time.

Drones have some unique advantages, but without them would be ludicrously underwhelming. Tracking and Damage projection and independence are their strengths. They pay for that with mediocre damage, and destructibility and in the case of sentries, immobility.
Gief ISK
Doomheim
#199 - 2013-08-09 12:35:01 UTC
Marc Callan wrote:
Haven't had a chance to fly the Odyssey 1.0 Dominix yet, so I can't really offer an opinion on that front.

However, on the issue of the bonus: apparently what we refer to as "bonus" comes from the Latin bonum, a good thing ("bonus" in Latin meant a good man), the plural of which was bona. English being the way it is, things kind of evolved, to the point where "bonuses" became an acceptable plural for "bonus".

More importantly, the plural of "Dominix" is "potatoes".


Sorry, but trying to be pretentious while aparently lacking ANY form of formal education is laughable...

"bonus" is the masculine nominative, "bona" is feminine nominative and "bonum" is neuter nominative.
"boni" is masculine plural.

Source: Actual major in latin in school, you should really try out school...
Louis Robichaud
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#200 - 2013-08-09 12:39:52 UTC
Hell ***** wrote:
Marc Callan wrote:


More importantly, the plural of "Dominix" is "potatoes".


And we have a winner!! Lol

Thread closed


seconded

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