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Caldari Online
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Arrowyx
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2011-11-11 11:55:54 UTC
Trader Jjenna wrote:
Eve online is still Caldari online.

The Drake is the most ubiquitous ship in the game being the best pvp and pve BC. Requiring little skills to fly properly it excels in both roles.

On the higher level of eve we have the T3s and the best T3 for both PvP (whether it be 100mn AB or otherwise) and pve is the Tengu.


Drake and Tengu are really the only Caldari ships worth a damn outside of the e-war line because heavy missiles are the only Caldari weapon system that isn't garbage, hence they are used lots. Tell me when the last time you saw a Raven or Rokh in pvp? Or even a Ferox? Compare this to, say, Minmatar, and you see useful ships in virtually every class. Not to mention the fact that projectiles are far and away the most versatile weapon system with a large range of engagement AND Minmatar ships are the fastest which gives them the advantage in dictating combat range.

Quote:
So now with the tier 3 BCs they make the Naga. Complete choice of either hybrid or torps for a all 8 slots with full bonuses for each. Funny how it is more versatile than the Typhoon which CCP "generously" gave 5 slots of each (after years of asking for some love)- but a split bonus. The Naga also gets one more slot than any other racial tier 3 BC.


Why this obvious bias?



The Naga might as well not even exist. Torpedoes don't do even do full damage to half of the battleships when they are sitting still, let alone moving. Hybrids are better but still not in good shape. Add to this the fact that Naga has to sacrifice its already paper-thin tank to fit tackle mods and is the slowest of the new BC's.

P.S. The alt post train is pretty obvious. Roll
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2011-11-11 13:40:03 UTC
Wonder does wonder why resist modules have stacking penalties but things like shield power relays, trimarks, etc, don't.

Bring back active tanks! Nerf passive junk!

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2011-11-11 13:44:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzzmong
Caldari have always been the PVE kings due to missiles. Right or wrong? Up to CCP. They've had their moments being top-dog at PVP as well (on the old missile system).

With regards to missile PVE, the main drawback of Caldari & missiles, which is the delay in applying damage, is actually pretty unimportant when the plus points of no-tracking, long range consistant damage projection and no cap use are taken into account.

What I'd like to see is missile speed increased while flight times (range) decreased. Might help make more Caldari missile boats outside of the Drake/Tengu used a bit more in PVP while making Caldari PVE'ers work a little bit harder but getting faster applied damge (and probably slightly improved completion times).

Having to move around in PvE would make Caldari a bit more interesting to fly as well, I started training and using missiles, but as I found it even more boring than using drones I stopped and refocused on Amarr and Lasers.
Soporo
#24 - 2011-11-11 15:15:16 UTC
Quote:
Drake and Tengu are really the only Caldari ships worth a damn outside of the e-war line because heavy missiles are the only Caldari weapon system that isn't garbage, hence they are used lots.

Tell me when the last time you saw a Raven or Rokh in pvp? Or even a Ferox? Compare this to, say, Minmatar, and you see useful ships in virtually every class. Not to mention the fact that projectiles are far and away the most versatile weapon system with a large range of engagement AND Minmatar ships are the fastest which gives them the advantage in dictating combat range.


This is quoted for absolute truth.

Op is obviously trolling.

Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. - H.L. Mencken
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#25 - 2011-11-11 15:42:20 UTC
Soporo wrote:
Quote:
Drake and Tengu are really the only Caldari ships worth a damn outside of the e-war line because heavy missiles are the only Caldari weapon system that isn't garbage, hence they are used lots.

Tell me when the last time you saw a Raven or Rokh in pvp? Or even a Ferox? Compare this to, say, Minmatar, and you see useful ships in virtually every class. Not to mention the fact that projectiles are far and away the most versatile weapon system with a large range of engagement AND Minmatar ships are the fastest which gives them the advantage in dictating combat range.


This is quoted for absolute truth.

Op is obviously trolling.

OP is definitely trolling, but the raven is most certainly NOT a useless ship, nor are torps as a weapon system useless. Small missiles and cruises could use a look at though, HAMs are ok IMO, but I wouldn't whine if they got a slight buff.
Goose99
#26 - 2011-11-11 15:49:42 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
Soporo wrote:
Quote:
Drake and Tengu are really the only Caldari ships worth a damn outside of the e-war line because heavy missiles are the only Caldari weapon system that isn't garbage, hence they are used lots.

Tell me when the last time you saw a Raven or Rokh in pvp? Or even a Ferox? Compare this to, say, Minmatar, and you see useful ships in virtually every class. Not to mention the fact that projectiles are far and away the most versatile weapon system with a large range of engagement AND Minmatar ships are the fastest which gives them the advantage in dictating combat range.


This is quoted for absolute truth.

Op is obviously trolling.

OP is definitely trolling, but the raven is most certainly NOT a useless ship, nor are torps as a weapon system useless. Small missiles and cruises could use a look at though, HAMs are ok IMO, but I wouldn't whine if they got a slight buff.


Yeah, in pve...Lol
Alara IonStorm
#27 - 2011-11-11 16:28:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Cambarus wrote:
cruises

I don't think they are as big an issue as people make them out to be. I believe why they are considered bad is because the platforms you fit them on are bad. People mention Flight Time as an issue. Cruise Missiles move the same Velocity as popular Heavy Missiles and get hit to between 20-70km that Drakes usually fight in with an added option to go further.

The Raven has 6 Missile Slots + RoF Bonus and sits at 120k EHP. The Typhoon has 5 Missile Slot and Sentries stop movement / Heavies are too slow for large battles where Cruise Range would be useful. The Abbadon has 8 Turret Slots + Dmg Bonus + Fleet Ranges with short range Guns and sits at 160k EHP. The Maelstrom sits at 130k and has a 10k Alpha. Which one's would you chose to build a fleet around.

I mean would you fly an Amarr Battleship with 6 Lasers and one 5% DPS Bonus and average tank?

Current Missile Fleets are too fast to accommodate the Raven while Missiles fall short in Gun Gangs whose Battleships are superior.

Cruises are not terrible but there is no ship to support them. Imagine a Rokh with a 5% Dmg Bonus to Missiles instead of an Opt Bonus and 8 Launchers. 165k EHP and 647 DPS with CN Missiles and selectable Dmg consistant from short to ultra long range. Makes you re-think things. Shame really
Soporo
#28 - 2011-11-11 16:52:56 UTC
Quote:
OP is definitely trolling, but the raven is most certainly NOT a useless ship, nor are torps as a weapon system useless. Small missiles and cruises could use a look at though, HAMs are ok IMO, but I wouldn't whine if they got a slight buff.


I feel ya, but my point always is: Torps (since the speed/missile nerf) require far more mods + rigs + ship bonuses to engage pvp BS and especially BC sized targets than any other BS sized weapon system. That ends up being way more tackle/tank/propulsion mod space + non insta damage, which ends up being, meh, bring something else.

Look at the Golem, see the huge number of bonuses needed to make a good PVE weapon out of torps, and you still lose two or 3 slots to painers, not to mention rigs, and that's for slow, mindless PVE npcs. Even stealth bombers has the huge bonuses required.

Cruise. Cruise need to be inherently much faster, do more damage and/or get a moderate expl velocity and radius buff, at least.

Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. - H.L. Mencken
Lili Lu
#29 - 2011-11-11 16:53:20 UTC
Trader Jjenna wrote:
Eve online is still Caldari online.

The Drake is the most ubiquitous ship in the game being the best pvp and pve BC. Requiring little skills to fly properly it excels in both roles.


Agreed. CCP said a year ago (and here we are still waiting) that it was probably going to nerf heavy missile range or something to try to force more choices to be made in low slots and rigs to shake up the cookie cutter of BCUs or SPRs in lows and extender or purger rigs in rig slots. It sounded like the idea was to force a choice of tank or gank and not leave the Drake as it is now the only BC that can sport both at the same time (at least in the tank, and the gank being less than BS but sufficient).

Trader Jjenna wrote:
On the higher level of eve we have the T3s and the best T3 for both PvP (whether it be 100mn AB or otherwise) and pve is the Tengu.


Agreed as well. And here a heavy missile range nerf would bring the Tengu closer to the other Tech IIIs.

Trader Jjenna wrote:
So now with the tier 3 BCs they make the Naga. Complete choice of either hybrid or torps for a all 8 slots with full bonuses for each. Funny how it is more versatile than the Typhoon which CCP "generously" gave 5 slots of each (after years of asking for some love)- but a split bonus. The Naga also gets one more slot than any other racial tier 3 BC.


Now here is where you appear to be trolling. I hate the idea of all these ships, so I have had no interest to test them on the test server. I hope they all come prenerfed and we don't see them much. However, by all accounts the Naga is the runt of the litter.

Trader Jjenna wrote:
Why this obvious bias?


You should meet another forum alt troll name of Naomi Knight. You see she percieves this game as Minmatar online and the poor Caldari as the downtroden race. She has in the past railed (heh) against the Amarr, and now enjoys some Gallente companionship in her rage against the power that is (CCP). Suffice to say that both of you are two different denominations of the same currency. That being a currency in which most players do not wish to trade.

About the best we could rate the racial balance at this point is as someone stated above. Caldari and Minmatar pretty much on top atm, Amarr having some decent options, and Gallente bringing up the rear but still having some ships worth flying (drone ships and capitals/supercaps).
Soporo
#30 - 2011-11-11 17:01:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Soporo
Winmatard, Amarr, tthen Cald/Gallente depending on class, imo. You talk HACS or BS and Cald go to the bottom, maybe AF's too (lolHawk).

Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. - H.L. Mencken
Jacob Stov
#31 - 2011-11-11 17:05:13 UTC
Cambarus wrote:

OP is definitely trolling, but the raven is most certainly NOT a useless ship, nor are torps as a weapon system useless. Small missiles and cruises could use a look at though, HAMs are ok IMO, but I wouldn't whine if they got a slight buff.


Well, you can turn Ravens into Golems... which brings me to one of the few ships that actually works with torps. Otherwise torps are okish as secondary weapon system on bombers.

Feel free to share this useful Raven fitting you found. People used to mock me for flying Drakes in PvP. Sooo, maybe I missed a good fitting in an underrated ship ?! P
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2011-11-11 17:54:14 UTC
fully agree with OP. the Drake is just stupid and ridiculous, and the Tengu needs some serious nerfs.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2011-11-11 18:02:33 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Trader Jjenna wrote:
Eve online is still Caldari online.

The Drake is the most ubiquitous ship in the game being the best pvp and pve BC. Requiring little skills to fly properly it excels in both roles.


Agreed. CCP said a year ago (and here we are still waiting) that it was probably going to nerf heavy missile range or something to try to force more choices to be made in low slots and rigs to shake up the cookie cutter of BCUs or SPRs in lows and extender or purger rigs in rig slots. It sounded like the idea was to force a choice of tank or gank and not leave the Drake as it is now the only BC that can sport both at the same time (at least in the tank, and the gank being less than BS but sufficient).


That were some qualifiers to their post(s) around that time, people complaining about how the whole game was Drakes Online, with CCP saying they didn't like to step-in on balance issues too early and stifle any possible metagame shifts. Then people remembered the BSes rip Drakes apart and thousands of dead Drakes later, there aren't many claiming Drakes are OP.
Cerlin
#34 - 2011-11-11 18:33:52 UTC
I love the contrast of these forums. For ever post saying buff something there is an equally strong whine post.

As a Caldari PVP Pilot (Who also flies Minmatar and Gallente) I do not feel they are overpowered. Have you ever tried to chase down a nano-minmatar fleet lately? IF anything the serious lack of viability in half of Caldari chassis is a disadvantage (read; all railgun designed ships.) And while people say the coming hybrid fix will be the solution I cannot believe that until I see proof. Caldari on the whole are widely used (Because of the PVE application of missiles) but they are not considered OP by any serious PVP'ers I know. The only case where I have seen them do awesome is in small scale drake fleets with an off grid loki for speed/web/shield buffs, but that is more of the case that off grid buffs are superpowered and not the fact the drake is such an awesome chassis.

While I do lose twice as many Hurricanes as I do Drakes, I feel they are both awesome ships. However I think that all of the Tier 2 battlecruisers are good ships and a lot depends on situation and the pilots, not "OMG THE DRAKE IS OP!!!!"

I also enjoy the fact people are complaining that the Caldari actually receive a single viable weapon system (Heavy missiles) and because they do it should be nerfed. Lets not look at the fact that the WHOLE line of Autocannons/Arty is powerful and the same goes for Lasers as well. If anything I support buffing subpar weapon systems such as blasters (and fixing gallente subcaps) instead of applying the nerf bat. Since this fix is finally coming it will be good to see how all the weapon systems balance.
Gasm
Colossus Enterprises
#35 - 2011-11-11 19:33:47 UTC
The Jersey Shore wrote:
I There really is not good bc counter to a drake fleet.


that's just plain not true. pure false.
welpcanes are an obvious, well used counter to drakes.
Thelron
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#36 - 2011-11-11 21:10:06 UTC
"Caldari have always been the PVE kings due to missiles. Right or wrong? Up to CCP. They've had their moments being top-dog at PVP as well (on the old missile system)."

I'm guessing you don't mean the *actual* old missile system where you only fired a missile if you a) had disposable income and/or time (since they were built in batches of 1 for about the current mineral cost IIRC), b) had a VERY CLEAR path to the target (as they blew up when they hit inconvenient things such as "asteroids" and "stargates"), and finally c) were NOWHERE NEAR anything remotely friendly (so you didn't blow up your friends' drones, your friends, or yourself if you made the mistake of launching a missile just about anywhere in hi-sec).

As for the OP... 2/10 simply because the tengu is damn good, but it isn't like the loki and such aren't also damn good (and 3 point penalty for having to use follow-on trolling to attempt whining about diluted ECM)
ACE McFACE
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2011-11-11 22:58:21 UTC
Posting to confirm that Caldari is the best PvP race and no one should train for minmatar anymore

Now, more than ever, we need a dislike button.
Flenz
Rancorous Research
#38 - 2011-11-11 23:00:53 UTC
ACE McFACE wrote:
Posting to confirm that Caldari is the best PvP race and no one should train for minmatar anymore


BECAUSE OF FALCON
BearJews
Order of Extrodinary Gentlemen
#39 - 2011-11-11 23:22:29 UTC
So much wine, i'm craving cheese.
Nephilius
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#40 - 2011-11-13 01:30:07 UTC
Sorry, but I don't believe it.

I PvE with Caldari.

I PvP with Gallente and Matar.
"If."