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[Odyssey 1.1] Jump Clone skills *Updated with Advanced Infomorph Psychology*

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Ju0ZaS
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#441 - 2013-08-08 20:02:11 UTC
Sweet.

Are you going to fight me or do you expect to bore me to death with your forum pvp?
Gneeznow
Ship spinners inc
#442 - 2013-08-08 20:47:18 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
edit: Based on feedback we are also going to be able to add a second skill in this patch - Advanced Infomorph Psychology - which will open up 5 more jump clone slots. This skill will be rank 5, have a bigger price-tag and will require the basic skill to be level 5 before training.


oh NOICE! fortuitous timing too I've run out of clones, 4 with mindlinks and 1 cheapo one.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#443 - 2013-08-08 22:57:19 UTC
just read the changes and nothing more,

if u add more clones pls add also an advanced infomorph synch skill which could bring jumpclone time down to maybe 12h, would be great.

Thx
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#444 - 2013-08-09 00:32:57 UTC

I know this might not be too popular, but an isk sink based mechanic might be relevant to look into ( in addition..)?


Since we could end up with 10 Clones and Jumping every 12 hours, then a LOT of jumping will be going on..

Some sort of fair priced count down price system might be an idea.. So to insta jump the cost would be full price of a medical clone and the skill levels would simple tick down to 1% of the cost of a medical clone. This way maybe there would not even be a need for the time limit, it would simply be a sacrificed cost instead...

Personally I find it really frustrating to have to live with this management of clone jumps, instead of just having a well priced isk sink..
Susan Black
Ice Fire Warriors
#445 - 2013-08-09 01:29:40 UTC
This seems like overkill to me. To introduce a skillbook for this? Why not just change the 24 hour timer to a 20 hour timer. Problem solved. Shocked

www.gamerchick.net @gamerchick42
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#446 - 2013-08-09 02:46:58 UTC
There is a slight irony in the whole mechanic of clone jumping. The skill swapping forces you to log in, and the clone timer kinda forces you to log out?

All these weird time sinks and barriers should really all be reconsidered a bit. If they have an actual wanted effect sure leave them in, but if not get rid of them..

Similar issues could be considered with capacity gap stoppers in container limits in planetary interaction and the one size fits all time mechanics of industry copy, research, production etc..

Many of these features seem to have aged rather poorly and could use a nice overhaul. Considering taking current state as a snapshot and then tweaking them all would be a HUGE improvement to the game in general. It would also fit very well with the idea of the winter expansion being industry and economy focused.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#447 - 2013-08-09 04:21:43 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
Faster locking time allows a clear advantage in combat over a character with slower locking time. With 2 e-war ships it often decides which ship gets to lock at all. Faster align time is crucial to in game survivability. Faster manufacturing time reduces costs and increases your production capability. Reduction in POS fuel costs reduces your expenses. All great skills to have, provide good in game advantages, provide competative advantages at certain professions and aren't there to fix a design problem.

You're basic mistake is trying to compare skills designed to provide gameplay advantages in a competitive environment to a skill, where its entire reason for existing is to address out of game convenience problems caused by short sighted design of the jump clone mechanic.


What if the base timer for jump clones was changed to 28 hours, and this skill provided a 2hr per level reduction? Would you still call the timer a short sighted design choice? Or would you see that the base time doesn't quite allow one jump per day but you can train a skill to allow one jump per day?

Destination SkillQueue wrote:
Maybe the exact line between the two groups is sometimes hard to draw, but this isn't one of those times. This skill clearly falls in to the quality of life -category and is entirely needless filler, …


I disagree. The timescale of clone jumping is in the same order as ME/PE research, manufacturing jobs, wardecs and corp recruitment. The advantages of jump clones over death clones are immediately obvious to anyone who regularly flies with a billion ISK worth of implants. The difference a Virtue set gives you when flying that Anathema is worth training a skill that allows you to switch to that clone tomorrow if you want to. This is absolutely about ship fitting and absolutely not about convenience and quality of life. You could just fly your mission Tengu with your probing clone, and you could fly your anathema with the heavy missile implants. There is no quality of life difference between those two situations, but there is a huge difference in the performance of those ships when you use the appropriate clone.

When I JC into the mining foreman clone, my mining fleet gets a performance increase. I can autopilot any other clone to the fleet and still do the same job. I can deth clone faster, or settle for a middle ground and use a blops bridge.

Destination SkillQueue wrote:
Surely every player regardless how old their character is is potentially affected by this problem, so why not fix it for every player instead of giving every character the option to train the antidote for this particular quality of life poison?


Not everyone, only those who have and use jump clones specifically for the purpose of engaging in different play styles from day to day using the same character. It doesn't impact people who have a PvP character and switch to their mining or mission-running character when required. For some people being able to jump clone is a weekend warrior thing: ISK-making during the week, ISK burning on the weekends (or vice versa). Those people won't care to train this skill. Being able to shorten the timer is important to some people, not all people.

So the shortening of the timer is important to some people, and in those cases there is a tactical reason for switching not a quality of life case. So having the shortening of the timer as a trainable skill makes perfect sense. Just to emphasise the point, I would extend the base timer to more than 24 hours, with the skill trained to 3+ to provide a sub-24hr cooldown.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Qaidan Alenko
Eezo-Lution Inc.
#448 - 2013-08-09 05:32:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Qaidan Alenko
CCP Rise wrote:
edit: Based on feedback we are also going to be able to add a second skill in this patch - Advanced Infomorph Psychology - which will open up 5 more jump clone slots. This skill will be rank 5, have a bigger price-tag and will require the basic skill to be level 5 before training.

Shocked ... Lol

Now THIS is something I have been dreaming of for quite some time...

Your babies... I can bear for you... yes?

*disappears back into the shadows of "Lurker mode"*
Go ahead... Get your Wham on!!!
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#449 - 2013-08-09 09:54:41 UTC
I still say a good longer-term compromise would be to tie the length of the jump-clone timer to the distance between the clones you're jumping between (say, 4 hours for an in-station jump, 8 hours for an in-system jump, 12 hours for a jump within a constellation, etc.). I threw it into the CSM "Reasonable Things" thread, but I suspect it'd take some more sophisticated programming than the addition of a skill book or two.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
Brakko Mussua
Doomheim
#450 - 2013-08-09 10:30:44 UTC
Make it a 10% per level....
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#451 - 2013-08-09 10:36:03 UTC
Brakko Mussua wrote:
Make it a 10% per level....


Or just a flat -2 hours per level.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#452 - 2013-08-09 11:07:34 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Updated OP to reflect that we are also going to add another skill in this patch which allows for 5 more jump clones per character, bringing the max up to 10.

Many people asked for this skill and while we don't expect most players to need it, we wanted to support those that do. The skill will be called "Advanced Infomorph Psychology" and will require basic informorph to be level 5 before training.



finally 5 combat clones, not just the one I havnt rammed implants into

OMG when can i get a pic here
Aleander Brunsh
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#453 - 2013-08-09 11:10:05 UTC
No, anything more than those 5 hours and most of people who work (like me) would *never* take the risk of hauling an implanted alt anywhere, and would not keep any of those with themselves at all times. That might seem convenient, but the little bit of risk actually adds a pleasant edge to the game.

Swapping at stations would be even worse — then only WH space inhabitants would keep any implants on themselves.

Right now I actually have to risk keeping a cheap set of implants on me just because I can't flip around all the time. If I could switch every 20h, I'd probably make the "active" ones cheaper (it's still 5-15h per week). If I could switch in stations, I would never leave a station with learning implants.

I do think it's a good idea to make the timer a bit shorter, and have it cost a bit (so that making it *a lot shorter* involves a trade-off), but even less than 22h means you're unlikely to get into trouble due to unexpected situations/poor planning/all of the above.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#454 - 2013-08-09 11:21:28 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Updated OP to reflect that we are also going to add another skill in this patch which allows for 5 more jump clones per character, bringing the max up to 10.

Many people asked for this skill and while we don't expect most players to need it, we wanted to support those that do. The skill will be called "Advanced Infomorph Psychology" and will require basic informorph to be level 5 before training.


Awesome, I can soon have clones scattered around the universe as widely as my inventory.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Templar Knightsbane
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#455 - 2013-08-09 11:27:23 UTC
Estel Ador influx ahead!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#456 - 2013-08-09 20:05:44 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Updated OP to reflect that we are also going to add another skill in this patch which allows for 5 more jump clones per character, bringing the max up to 10.

Many people asked for this skill and while we don't expect most players to need it, we wanted to support those that do. The skill will be called "Advanced Infomorph Psychology" and will require basic informorph to be level 5 before training.

So you're still not going to address the core design issue where jump clone delay pushes jump clone use back a bit each play session until eventually people wind up stranded in the wrong clone during their few hours of play time?
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#457 - 2013-08-09 20:07:39 UTC
Tippia wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Updated OP to reflect that we are also going to add another skill in this patch which allows for 5 more jump clones per character, bringing the max up to 10.

Many people asked for this skill and while we don't expect most players to need it, we wanted to support those that do. The skill will be called "Advanced Infomorph Psychology" and will require basic informorph to be level 5 before training.

So you're still not going to address the core design issue where jump clone delay pushes jump clone use back a bit each play session until eventually people wind up stranded in the wrong clone during their few hours of play time?

Another new skill reduces the jump clone timer by 1 hour per level almost eliminating that.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#458 - 2013-08-09 20:24:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Tippia wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Updated OP to reflect that we are also going to add another skill in this patch which allows for 5 more jump clones per character, bringing the max up to 10.

Many people asked for this skill and while we don't expect most players to need it, we wanted to support those that do. The skill will be called "Advanced Infomorph Psychology" and will require basic informorph to be level 5 before training.

So you're still not going to address the core design issue where jump clone delay pushes jump clone use back a bit each play session until eventually people wind up stranded in the wrong clone during their few hours of play time?

Another new skill reduces the jump clone timer by 1 hour per level almost eliminating that.


I think you've missed the point that Tippia was making in that CCP has identified that this is a design flaw and that Tippia is championing that this should not be then passed onto the paying customer to "fix" it by training a skill. Instead it should be addressed in the code and the fix implemented system wide.

I'd accept a longer than normal DT if required to make this right.

EDIT: Not that she needed it but White-Knighting Tippia...gotta get a like from her for that surely Blink

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#459 - 2013-08-09 20:32:58 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Tippia wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Updated OP to reflect that we are also going to add another skill in this patch which allows for 5 more jump clones per character, bringing the max up to 10.

Many people asked for this skill and while we don't expect most players to need it, we wanted to support those that do. The skill will be called "Advanced Infomorph Psychology" and will require basic informorph to be level 5 before training.

So you're still not going to address the core design issue where jump clone delay pushes jump clone use back a bit each play session until eventually people wind up stranded in the wrong clone during their few hours of play time?

Another new skill reduces the jump clone timer by 1 hour per level almost eliminating that.


I think you've missed the point that Tippia was making in that CCP has identified that this is a design flaw and that Tippia is championing that this should not be then passed onto the paying customer to "fix" it by training a skill. Instead it should be addressed in the code and the fix implemented system wide.

I'd accept an longer than normal DT if required to make this right.

EDIT: Not that she needed it but White-Knighting Tippia...gotta get a like from her for that surely Blink
Oh, Maximus....I'll give you a like, but that's only because you summed up Tippia's position so concisely.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#460 - 2013-08-09 20:38:49 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Tippia wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Updated OP to reflect that we are also going to add another skill in this patch which allows for 5 more jump clones per character, bringing the max up to 10.

Many people asked for this skill and while we don't expect most players to need it, we wanted to support those that do. The skill will be called "Advanced Infomorph Psychology" and will require basic informorph to be level 5 before training.

So you're still not going to address the core design issue where jump clone delay pushes jump clone use back a bit each play session until eventually people wind up stranded in the wrong clone during their few hours of play time?

Another new skill reduces the jump clone timer by 1 hour per level almost eliminating that.


I think you've missed the point that Tippia was making in that CCP has identified that this is a design flaw and that Tippia is championing that this should not be then passed onto the paying customer to "fix" it by training a skill. Instead it should be addressed in the code and the fix implemented system wide.

I'd accept an longer than normal DT if required to make this right.

EDIT: Not that she needed it but White-Knighting Tippia...gotta get a like from her for that surely Blink
Oh, Maximus....I'll give you a like, but that's only because you summed up Tippia's position so concisely.


Maximii 4TW Big smile

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!