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[Odyssey 1.1] Jump Clone skills *Updated with Advanced Infomorph Psychology*

First post First post
State War Academy
Caldari State
#421 - 2013-08-08 16:14:21 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Zaxix wrote:
It's hard to give feedback if you've limited all discussion to a non-existent skill you've already said isn't likely to change.

Nice start. Something is better than nothing. But just looking at votes in the reasonable things thread shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that significantly lowering the timer is what the community wants.

Thanks for chipping away at it though.

A common suggestion for improving chess is for my side to start with two ranks of queens. This won't necessarily make the game as much better as I expect.

The purpose of jump clones is to allow for a different play style during each daily play session. So once per 24 hours, allowing for an average of four to five hours play per day (because you log in immediately upon returning home from work and keep playing until bed time), means that 19 hours provides ample opportunity to switch to a new clone once every daily session.

The people looking for 12 hour jump clones are clearly looking to switch between null combat and hisec training clones every day. They want everything but wish to sacrifice nothing. There are clearly sacrifices to be made for the convenience of switching playstyles every day, one of those is the restriction to live in that clone for the next 19-24 hours.

Rather than reduce the clone jump timer to allow switching between training and combat implants every day, what about addressing the real issue which is remaps and attribute implants? But no, they want everything while sacrificing nothing. They are so addicted to accelerated training that taking away training implants (which would in many cases eliminate the requirement for jump clones in the first place) will be decried as anathema to the spirit of the game. Which is bunkum.

Some folks just need to learn to play the game, not the mechanics.

Please show me where this common Chess suggestion is. No one suggests that. You've got a couple of assumptions buried in there. Show me where it was announced that the purpose of JCs is the one you suggest (I've never seen it, but maybe you have. Link please.). Not everyone who wants this is a null combat pilot looking to get back into the training clone.

However, I agree that the attributes/implant mechanic doesn't add anything to the game and is a relic of D&D. In those sorts of games, attributes played into every roll of the dice and were therefore a critical part of the overall game design. In EVE, they're only used for training purposes, which creates a strange, needless barrier with no obvious point other than stretching out training times and generally getting in the way of things.

I also don't see what this has to do with that particular post. I'd love to see your reply to my med clone post. Also, veiled insults are unbecoming for "folks" who are usually such good posters.



Azn Empire
#422 - 2013-08-08 16:19:20 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Mag's wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Updated OP to reflect that we are also going to add another skill in this patch which allows for 5 more jump clones per character, bringing the max up to 10.

Many people asked for this skill and while we don't expect most players to need it, we wanted to support those that do. The skill will be called "Advanced Infomorph Psychology" and will require basic informorph to be level 5 before training.
This was rather unexpected. I will be training it and thanks.

My only issue with it, is not being able to use them all in my system. Lol Any chance we could have more in one station?

Yes, finding homes for all those boys will be an issue. Smile

However they probably want to avoid a situation where you are able to swap clones (and more importantly implants) as easily as you would change clothes.
I see your point, but the time limit they set is surely enough to remove such fears.

I do feel my request, falls into how they look at these skills being used. I simply ask to be able to utilise them in the same system and/or station. When I last had time to play, I did change clones dependant upon which implants I needed, rather than to avoid using them at all or travelling vast distances in a flash.

I will of course nip next door and suck it up for now. Lol

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Rainbow Prism Colorblind
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#423 - 2013-08-08 16:21:49 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Updated OP to reflect that we are also going to add another skill in this patch which allows for 5 more jump clones per character, bringing the max up to 10.

Many people asked for this skill and while we don't expect most players to need it, we wanted to support those that do. The skill will be called "Advanced Infomorph Psychology" and will require basic informorph to be level 5 before training.

Oh more clones, I am not to sure if its a good or bad thing with more clones, but yes it would help in some things.
Any change have its good and bad side, lets find out what it may have on this.

Lets hope it not get to powerful of a tool.
Raze Zindonas
#424 - 2013-08-08 16:30:54 UTC
12hrs would be awesome.
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
#425 - 2013-08-08 16:39:45 UTC
Please change it where if you are in the same station as another clone you can just swap with it.

This wouldnt count as jumping since you are already there. The jumpers will be rewarded, the lazy won't.

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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Nam Dnilb
Universal Frog
#426 - 2013-08-08 16:41:09 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Also, the guy spending 19 hours in front of his computer complaining about how easy space pixels are could also do something else like take a shower, have some food, take a girlfriend to snack/restaurant, cinema, read a book, meet some friends, take care of his family call his parents brothers/sisters, play an instrument etc.

Well it's not really like a normal person with a job working 8-12H and happy to play his favorite space ship game to relax of his day work that now will not be stuck until late evening to give a hand to his friends and still be able to return tomorrow after work log in and return at his favorite in game stuff/

His comment has no sense but for people who lost all sense of reality and priorities. This mechanic brings absolutely nothing positive in terms of gaming experience and if they really like that much harsh stuff, finding a job and keep it would be a good place to start.

Remember people, when discussing internet spaceship pixels always, at least by implication, call your fellow conversational partner unwashed, malnourished, lonely, iliterate, socially awkward, uncaring pieces of spit without all sense of reality and priorities.

Internet spaceship pixels do not deserve anything less, butt a full barrage of insults and degradation. Don't settle for anything less capsuleers!
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#427 - 2013-08-08 16:44:25 UTC
next: safe fittings for clones

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Vartan Sarkisian
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#428 - 2013-08-08 16:50:55 UTC
Just allow implants to be unplugged and you don't have to worry about 1 hour, 1.5 or 2 hour periods per pointless skill.

You have had your roam, you JC out to your expensive clone and then an hour later your needed for another roam... erm sorry guys, see you in 23 hours... with the ability to unplug implants you solve the issue.
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#429 - 2013-08-08 16:58:28 UTC
Why isn't the timer based on distance jumped?

Simple 2 tier system seems appropriate...

24 hours if jump is outside region
12 hour timer if jump is within region

Your welcome?

State War Academy
Caldari State
#430 - 2013-08-08 17:03:28 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Zaxix: Actually, medical clones aren't quite a versatile as you make out in all area's of space... but as I originally pointed out some of the arguments presented have been excellent examples of why medical clones need to be looked a closely. They tread very close to the line of undermining more important area's of game play.

So far the only thing keeping them from becoming a serious issue is implant loss. While you dismiss this a trivial, to most players it is not. For your average player the cost involved is an issue, and wealthy players tend to keep very, very expensive implants in their clones... and are loath to give them up for a simple location change.

I apologize for my tone if you took it to be personally insulting, it was not intended to be that way. Just keep in mind that usually the people asking for changes of this nature are usually players that haven't gained enough experience with the game to look beyond the surface layer of cause and effect that ripples throughout this game.

As for specific examples... well, to be honest there are far to many to begin to list here (and my time is limited at the moment). Perhaps the simplest way to say it in the limited time and space I have is that it becomes far too easy to go on a day trip in a fully equipped clone in one corner of EVE... and then that evening hop back across the universe (again in a fully equipped clone) for a completely different activity that night.

No commitment necessary, no real planning necessary, no sacrifices made... just click a button and there you are, fully outfitted for whatever the occasion may be. That's not really challenging game play.

Apology accepted! But, I'm not letting you off that easy. You haven't explained the power projection problem, or, more importantly, explained it in the context of med clone travel. If there are too many to list, just give me the two most critical.

Med clones are every bit as powerful as I think they are. When combined with jump clones, they get really versatile. Just keep one jump clone (of the now 10 we'll have available, lol) clean of implants. When you need to use med clones, jump to your clean clone before self destructing. Problem solved. Since many alliance pilots on full deployment fly without implants or with cheap implants, losing implants is not much of a barrier if the benefits gained by the quick travel are worth it. The only things I can think of that a med clone can't do that a jump clone can are jumping to clone bays and switching implant setups. I just don't see how an even lower JC timer changes the equation or is any more powerful or game breaking that what can be done with med clones. Strangely, the addition of 5 more jump clones makes JCs more powerful but no one seems put out by that. I can now setup clones in 11 different locations (10 + my current location), which could be a definite strategic advantage for prepositioning response fleet pilots.

This conversation started because I was asking for someone to show me what it is that I'm missing. I didn't really have a position. For me, I like 12 hrs because it would mean that I needn't think about the timer. Any particular series of gaming sessions I might have (short or long, weekday or weekend) would always have one JC available to me. In practice, it probably works out to once a day no matter what. (Think about it. At 12hrs, you'd need to either play once every 12 hrs or for a full 12 hrs in one session to get the benefits of a second jump.)

I am surprised no one has suggested another arrangement entirely; one that would handle several of the different uses/concerns by different groups. Change jump clones into just clones. They're on your character sheet, you can switch between them no matter where you are (you must be docked or have access to a clone bay), but there is no travel involved. Power projection issue solved. WH clone issues solved. Implant setup issues solved. Med clones become travel clones, you get one default reset point (specifics TBD; e.g .your noob station or your corp HQ) and you can travel to any corp office for a FEE with rising cost per use per day (or other time increment). ISK sink created. Existing, already-in-use med clone travel mechanic preserved AND one or two sneaky med clone use loopholes closed.



Caldari State
#431 - 2013-08-08 17:57:38 UTC

Well CCP Rise, it looks like maybe 3 people actually *read* your post.

Thanks for the changes. This will help casual players a lot.

Interbus Universal
#432 - 2013-08-08 18:11:05 UTC
Even more clones? You should have reduced it to one or two instead. People should have to choose one place where they can always teleport to safely and with zero risk.


State War Academy
Caldari State
#433 - 2013-08-08 18:12:21 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Even more clones? You should have reduced it to one or two instead. People should have to choose one place where they can always teleport to safely and with zero risk.

So no more med clones?



Asayanami Dei
Adhocracy Incorporated
#434 - 2013-08-08 18:12:37 UTC
So why not just make the jump timer per jump clone instead of per character?
People could have X number of jump clones, everyone with an individual jump timer on it, once per 24 hours as it used to be, but each jump in addition to that would increase the timer further.

You could use them for fast travel and for switching clones (implants).

For example Jump from amarr to my near-jita clone (amarr one has a timer now), jump from near-jita to lorentek (jita clone has a timer (24) now, amarr timer increased (to 28) and jump from lorentek to metropolis (lorentek has a timer now (24) jita increased (28) amarr increased (36) ) etc.

I'm a leaf on the wind, watch how I--THE CAPACITOR IS EMPTY

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#435 - 2013-08-08 18:12:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
The increase in max clones is a bit easier to swallow than a 12 hr. time because they only allow you to plan and preposition more options but they don't allow you to take advantage of those options any quicker.

Again, the options you pointed out for using jump clones and medical clones are well known... and frankly are borderline becoming an issue. I know you think of them as simply clever and effective use of existing game mechanics (which is true) but they do circumvent a great many other important game mechanics and are rapidly getting to the point where more restrictive game mechanics should be considered.

I think the root of this is a misunderstanding as to why there are a lot of people that want to restrict any game mechanic that allows quick and easy movement/trans-location within the game. It's not because we are masochists I promise you. Smile

Any mechanic that allows quick and easy (or instant) movement between locations is great for getting you to your primary objective, and usually erupts in a huge battle in the target strategically important system. It's huge, and concentrated, because everyone and their brother can get there in the blink of an eye.

But while it enables 1 (usually overly large) conflict, that quick and easy movement removes countless other opportunities for conflict to occur along the way. Opportunities that could result in a much wider variety of conflicts, over a much larger area, with fewer negatives associated with the battle.

More restricted movement options makes:

Organization and logistics a much more important consideration for both sides.

Opens opportunities to exploit choke points along the way to the objective system.

Makes ships/gangs that can cover distance quickly far, far more valuable to both sides.

Raises the likelihood that there will be stragglers or isolated groups, allowing for a lot of smaller scale combat.

Raises the likelihood that reinforcements to a battle may have to fight there way through to that battle, resulting in small scale combat in the systems surrounding the (probably) TIDI slowed system.

... and many, many more interactions that would result in MORE conflict, as well as more variety in those conflicts, than would be generated by a system that is more supportive of simply going "click" and you're there.

These objections apply to everything from the current discussion about Jump Clone timers, to reigning in current mechanics involving Jumping of any type (Jump Bridge networks, Titan jumps, cap ship jump range in general).

Easy movement makes it easier to focus on your objectives, I'll give you that... and I understand the appeal. However restrictive movement generates endless opportunities for both sides, and generally more spontaneous game play due to unexpected situations along the way.

In the end, you end up having more fun things to do... they just often won't necessarily be exactly what you planned. Smile

I can also understand the point of view of someone that is (or was) in shipping. Allowing people to jump somewhere and relying on a shipping company to get their ships/equipment there for them to use is great for business. Just keep in mind that if movement keeps getting easier in EVE, eventually they won't need the shipping companies anymore. It will be so easy they will just do it themselves.
As always, the trick is knowing where to draw the line... keeping in mind that the line drawn will affect a huge variety of people and play styles.

Sorry to be so wordy, but I'm hoping that this will help you to understand the mindset of people that have objections and concerns about making certain things even easier than the currently are. Again, we really aren't masochists... we just understand that the rules and restrictions of a game are actually what makes the game interesting and gives it character. To revert back to the old chess analogy in a different way, if you could move the all of the pieces in any direction you liked, as far as you liked, any time you liked... well, it wouldn't really be a game anymore. It's the rules and restrictions in place that define it and make it challenging, as well as enjoyable.

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Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#436 - 2013-08-08 18:36:21 UTC

Not really sure about the additional jump clone skill. That many jump clones really is just allowing for jump clones as methods to travel anywhere quickly. I am aware of death cloning but really you need a blank clone and it can be costly.

The real remaining problem with the jump clone mechanic is the standings requirement and this should be lowered, unnecessary grinding does not add value. I am aware of the corp services but the standing mechanic just feels like another barrier for newer players to swap out of clones they deem valuable. Positive standings or perhaps even around the 2.0,4.0 level is all that should be required. It could be a skill again but as with the timer reduction it just feels like a skill point sink.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#437 - 2013-08-08 18:41:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Il Feytid
CCP Rise wrote:
Updated OP to reflect that we are also going to add another skill in this patch which allows for 5 more jump clones per character, bringing the max up to 10.

Many people asked for this skill and while we don't expect most players to need it, we wanted to support those that do. The skill will be called "Advanced Infomorph Psychology" and will require basic informorph to be level 5 before training.

Straight question, no bull ****; do you think the current situation of power projection is in a healthy state for this game?
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#438 - 2013-08-08 19:06:43 UTC
Rise you should allow as many clones as someone wants in a single station, you could even add a increasing cost based on the number of clones currently stored in station. Ex: If you stored more than 2 clones in a station it would charge you isk everytime you jumped to one of them from another clone in that station. like 1mil to 20mil range based on number of clones.

"Love the Life you Live, Live the Life you Love"

Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#439 - 2013-08-08 19:08:52 UTC
there is no way to use jumping cloning for free within a station to break the game or gain an unfair travel time advantage.

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#440 - 2013-08-08 19:20:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
MotherMoon wrote:
there is no way to use jumping cloning for free within a station to break the game or gain an unfair travel time advantage.

In essence you are advocating changing implants from being permanent until destroyed (a game mechanic put in place for a variety of reasons) to being completely swappable once every 19-24 hours (12 hours if some people had their way)... without any relocation being involved at all.

I think some people are beginning to see how these things can very quickly snowball out of control.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.