Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Hi,

so the ECM discussions hopefully is still ongoing for CCP. Here is a new idea, which could work and put the ECM ships more into a support role and therefore in line with the other Recons:

Instead of rolling every 30 seconds, if a jam is successful for the jamming ship, move the roll to the modules of the jammed ship. That means rolling for every module which is used by a jammed ship if it is successfully used or not.

For instance: You have 8 guns and are trying to hit your target while being jammed with a 25% chance. This means for every gun that it misses automatically (or is not activated in case of other modules) with a 25% chance resulting in on average, that 6 of your guns can hit the target. Don't understand me wrong, I do not want to change the cycle time of the jammer.

This change would not need a lot of adjustment to the whole sensor strength/chance based mechanic and move the falcon/blackbird/scorpion into a support role. And the most important: Jammed pilots are not completely screwed and not able to do anything for the whole jam cycle of 30 seconds.

Everything.

OP's idea is great. About time to bring ECM in line with other Ewar. Locking out 1/4, 1/3, even 1/2 modules on an enemy ship would be a much more interesting mechanic than the IWIN button ECM currently is.

I will not attempt PvP with a gang with an ECM ship; any other Ewar I will.

If you step back and take a look, ECM is arguably the least destructive of the EWAR varieties with the exception of TPs. A sensor dampener can lower a ship's targeting range to the point that it can't lock anything. Tracking disruptors lower the tracking on a ship to the point it can't actually hit anything. How frustrating is it that you can lock a target, but you can't track well enough to even hit it? Of course, TDs don't work against logistics, EWAR, or missile boats. That would make TDs less effective than ECM.

In other words, ECM, damps, and tracking disruption all have the potential to remove enemies from the fight. ECM and damps prevent you from locking, and TDs prevent your guns from doing anything effective. ECM is balanced in the way that it has a non-trivial chance of outright failing none of the other EWARs have. In fact SDs, TDs, and TPs never miss. ECM effects lasts 20 seconds whereas SD and TD effects last for as long as the module is activated. Another balancing factor is that ECM is a mid-slot module in a race that is purely shield tanking. The other three races can fill their mids with EWAR and put together a reasonable armor tank. It is no mystery that this is why the CFC celestis fleets are so successful. They are combining never miss EWAR with a bonused ship that can tank long enough for logi to rep them. Caldari ships can put together a tissue paper armor tank at best.

"That is all fine and dandy," You say "but ECM is still too powerful". Why don't we take a look at some numbers?

Take a T2 Minmatar jammer. The ECM Phase Inverter II has a Ladar jam strength of 3.6.
Jammer vs Rifter: 3.6/8 sensor strength = 45% chance of jamming or a 55% chance of doing nothing.
Jammer vs Stabber: 3.6/13 sensor strength = 27.69% chance of jamming or a 72.31% chance of doing nothing.
Jammer vs Hurricane: 3.6/16 sensor strength = 22.5% chance of jamming or a 77.5% chance of doing nothing.
Jammer vs Tempest: 3.6/20 sensor strength = 18% chance of jamming or a 82% chance of doing nothing.

See? hardly anything wrong with ECM. Even against the most basic frigate it will fail more times than it will succeed. Imagine if your guns, hardeners, point, MWD, etc. had that fail rate. *shudder*

You see your issue is not truly with ECM. Your issue, is in fact, with the ECM bonused hulls. Take a Falcon with all level 5 skills fit with racial jammers, 2 Sensor Distortion Amps, and one ECM strength rig and let's look at those numbers again.

All level 5 Falcon vs. Sensor Comp. 5 ship:
Jammer vs Rifter: 14.2/9.6 sensor strength = 100% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Stabber: 14.2/15.6 sensor strength = 91.02% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Hurricane: 14.2/19.2 sensor strength = 73.95% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Tempest: 14.2/24 sensor strength = 59.16% chance of jamming

That really isn't OP at all. Considering the vast amount of training one has to accomplish to become a perfect Falcon pilot. In comparison the time it take to train a racial sensor comp to 5 or fit an ECCM module is trivial. In addition a Falcon has a tissue paper tank, a non-trivial chance of missing a jam, and unlike the other forms of EWAR it doesn't last forever.

Now you are likely to bring up a rather painful point in small gang and solo PvP: The ECM drone. Why don't we take a look at those?

EC-300 drone strength is 1.
Jammer vs Rifter: 1/9.6 sensor strength = 10.41% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Stabber: 1/15.6 sensor strength = 6.41% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Hurricane: 1/19.2 sensor strength = 5.23% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Tempest: 1/24 sensor strength = 4.16% chance of jamming

EC-600 drone strength is 1.5.
Jammer vs Rifter: 1.5/9.6 sensor strength = 15.62% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Stabber: 1.5/15.6 sensor strength = 9.61% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Hurricane: 1.5/19.2 sensor strength = 7.81% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Tempest: 1.5/24 sensor strength = 6.25% chance of jamming

Neither of those scream OP at all. "Now that isn't the real story" you exclaim "Most ships have 5!" True:
(How to calculate: Link calculator: Link (P (X>=1)) is the important number)

5 EC-300 jam strength 1:
vs Rifter: 42.28% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Stabber: 28.19% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Hurricane: 23.55% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Tempest: 21.02% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
I will concede that for 25m3 of drones these do seem a touch too powerful. I would recommend a reduction in jam strength down to .75.

5 EC-600 jam strength 1.5:
vs Rifter: 57.22% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Stabber: 39.66% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Hurricane: 33.40% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Tempest: Or 27.58% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
For 50m3 of drones these seem very well balanced for their size.

You see in the grand scheme of things ECM is neither OP, broken, wrong, out of place, or any of the other things people claim ECM is. It is merely a different and perfectly valid form of EWAR. It is high-risk high-reward, only truly effective on bonused hulls (as it should be) which at best can manage a tissue paper tank when fitting jams, and doesn't last forever like the other forms of EWAR. All things considered, it is perfectly in line with the other forms of EWAR. What's so wrong with that?

The jam probabilities you showed are for every 30 seconds. So for instance you are in two BCs and fighting some people with ECM drones. Normally killing one of those ships takes like 1-2 minutes for you. So the probability to lose tackle on one of the ships just by using cheap ECM drones is close to 90%.
And if you bring a cheap Blackbird or even a Falcon, it can warp in at 70km and you can do nothing against it. We had fights, where we were like 4-5 people fighting larger numbers of like 10 people easily. But as soon as the jamming ship appeared, we lost the fight.
Additionally, for some fights it ends up that people are jammed the whole time meaning they ae completely out and can basically only watch their tank and shout for reps. I think this is not the kind of game CCP wants for the players. Getting a fight is hard enough (sometimes taking several hours), and then getting jammed the whole time is really frustrating.

Frustration is the main aspect of this issue without a doubt.

I can tell you that from a Solo PvP point of view, ECM drones are probably the #1 reason that makes pilots give up trying to solo at all. Not even to mention ECM ships.

You take the time to come up with a nice fit, original and out of the box, to keep Eve interesting, to keep it fresh.
You take it for a solo roam. And when you end up getting permajammed, there is nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing possitive about the situation. It sucks out the energy and motivation of the pilot, and makes him/her feel that acting upon inspiration in the sandbox of Eve is just not worth it.

It is nothing like damps, when you have to get closer, or change the situation on the field in order to fight- thats fair game. Imporant thing is that you have a fighting chance. But when you get such long jam cycles and you're just sitting hopless, waiting...

I am in the process of writing an article about solo PvP atm. I have intereviewed quite a few pilots for that article, and the frustration-aspect of ECM is on everyone's mind.

This change is so due.

Sooo, Falcon shows up and has an 80% chance of removing me from the fight with ONE (1) modules. How many can a Falcon fit?

The entirety of this post highlights exactly why ECM is completely OP. The fact of the matter is with TD, you can still activate webs / scrams / any other disruption module of your own, AND your guns; you can reposition yourself to deal with the new threat. It also does nothing to missiles. SD lowers your lock range, again, reposition yourself to deal with the threat. TP is... well...not that good and it certainly pales in comparison to ECM.


People who believe ECM is in line with other forms of Ewar are, IMO, insane.

ECM doesn't last forever. SDs, TPs, and TDs all last forever.
ECM has a non-trivial chance to fail entirely. SDs, TPs, and TDs never fail.
The bonused hulls that make ECM effective are incredibly easy to kill or force from the filed. No other EWAR ship has that weakness.
You complain that a falcon, a ship that takes MONTHS to train in to, is powerful. Well heaven F***ing forbid that should be the case. I must have missed the part of Eve where you spend months training something only to be ineffective at the task. Why don't you spend two weeks to train sensor comp V and spend a few seconds to fit an ECCM module to counter this? It takes far less time to do that than train a falcon.

You can't spin numbers that prove ECM and ECM bonused hulls are not OP in to attempt to say they are. Sorry bud. It doesn't work that way. Frustrating or not ECM is balanced. No one, in the many threads I have posted in, can use numbers to prove that ECM is OP. When that happens we will finally have proof that ECM is OP and then will we have something that needs to be changed.

The numbers prove that ECM is balanced so Eve is perfectly justified in telling you to F* off. If you don't like that then you shouldn't be playing Eve. Simple as that.

I know ECM. I use ECM. I have won and lost many fights to ECM. Feelings have no place in PvP. Feeling have even less of a place when it comes to balancing in Eve. Numbers are the decider. Numbers are how things are balanced. If the number are saying things are balanced then they are balanced. You need to learn to live with that.

If you make up a fit and don't expect ECM drones than no only are you incompetent but you are a fool to boot. There are a myriad of ways to counter ECM and ECM drones. Eve is about choices and consequences. You make your choices and you get to live with the consequences. That is what makes Eve great. Don't like it? Go back to WoW.

You must have a falcon alt.

I train for months to get into a HAC, and it gets perma jammed. Now my ship is not effective IN ANY CAPACITY.

the problem is not that ECM is effective, it is TOO EFFECTIVE. It doesn't just reduce a certain aspect of your ship ("indefinitely" or not), it completely removes it and all of it's capabilities from the field. This is not in line with other forms of Ewar. If i could fly a cruiser that did 1000dps at 50km, had 100k EHP, with MWD at 3kms, and a drone bay, simply because I trained for months to fly it doesn't change the fact that it is TOO EFFECTIVE.

I don't have to spin numbers, ECM is broken because there is literally no way to adjust for its effects in the field, which you can with TD / SD / TP. You also don't seem to take into account that it lasts for 20 seconds PLUS the re-locking time (anywhere from another 3-6 seconds). This leaves me 14-17 seconds of action IF the next cycle fails. 23-26+ seconds in a fight is an eternity. So what if it has a 50% - 80% chance to work, esp when you can have multiple jammers on you.

Do you conceed the fact that: All other Ewar can be adjusted for on field, aside from ECM. Yes or no?

Do you concede the fact that: All other Ewar are not as disruptive(in bonused ships or not) as ECM? Yes or no?

I would rather have a somewhat structured discussion about the ridiculousness of ECM than you defending it vehemently because you have a Falcon alt.

EDIT: And FFS how do you justify ECM versus target painting, lmao.

psh... Falcon alts are for scrubs... Try a falcon main.

Did you fit your HAC with an ECCM? Did you overheat said ECCM? Did you train sensor comp to V? If you did then you would have significantly nullified the chances of that falcon jamming you. See? Choices and consequences.

ECM is not too effective. I see no numbers proving that ECM is too effective. I see lots of numbs that show more often than not ECM does nothing. I see numbers that show that a bonused hull that takes months to train in to is effective. That how it should be. You can not possibly be foolish enough to claim that Eve should be a place where you should train only to be ineffective....

You can adjust for the effects of ECM on field. Turn on your ECCM. Overheat your ECCM. Turn on your info links. Warp to a pounce and warp back. Burn out of range of the ship jamming you. Use your Grid Fu. Use FoF missiles against the ship jamming you. Use a smartbomb to blow up the ECM drones. Use your own drones set to aggressive to attack a target. You have options. It isn't my fault if you don't use them.

Sensor damps are more disruptive than ECM. They never miss. Force you to move closer than perhaps you want to. Try kiting/sniping when damped and tell me that is less annoying than ECM. Or they disrupt your lock time to the point where it takes upwards several MINUTES to lock anything. You can see evidence that damps are more effective than ECM because they were fielded more often in AT XI. I know you can argue that is not really how things are on TQ. But each of those teams had a choice as to the most devastating EWAR they could bring. Most chose damps. Also the CFC had a choice for their EWAR fleet. They chose permanently effective damp Celestis over a high chance to do nothing jam Blackbirds. They realized damps are more disruptive to an enemy fleet than a jam would be.

You claim that ECM is too disruptive because it nullifies any ability to lock. Damps do that far better. Imagine I am a scimi trying to keep safer at range during a fight. A single celestis can triple damp me down to the point at which I can only lock in 10-15km range. I can burn in a attempt to rep within scram, web, neut, DPS range or I can do nothing. There are no other options. Of course I could fit a Sensor booster. But I chose not to and now I have to deal with the consequences. I would much rather face ECM which I can overheat my ECCM module and watch jam attempt after jam attempt fail as I continue to rep.

Let's see some numbers. Lets see some cold hard facts that should ECM is too powerful. Because right now you have put nothing forward showing that ECM is too powerful. Instead all I have heard is complaints that bonused hulls are effective. If you are complaining about that then you need to reevaluate your understanding of Eve paticularly in the area of what a bonused ship is supposed to do.