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Tier 3 battlecruiser are usless
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#21 - 2011-11-11 15:35:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Etheoma wrote:
this is the last time I'm going to break this down for you In the tornado you have 20 ish k EHP the others are around about the same apart from the naga now the problem with the naga is it can only use torps and only gets a 10% bonus pers level of battlecruisers for torp speed which only give you around a 30k distance now at this distance it is rather easy for people to shoot at you or burn over to you to tackle you do the rest of the fleet can kill you
…which still doesn't change the fact that no, SBs cannot provide the same heavy fire support (with the same tank backing it) as the Tier 3 BCs. It doesn't matter how much you try to “break it down” — they just can't.
Quote:
now which number is higher 550 or 450?
The ~1000 DPS a Tier 3 BC can provide. You know, since one of its uses is to provide heavy fire support to a cruiser/BC gang.
Potato IQ
Doomheim
#22 - 2011-11-11 15:36:47 UTC
I don’t get your rational with SB’s. Fart to close to these and they pop. The new BC’s will have a far superior tank and are, frankly, not going to be considered in the roles a SB performs as an alternative and vice versa. The new BC’s will not negate BS use for some functions, but they will perform some existing ones better, or enable some that they could not do (C1 structure bashing as a prime example)

I would add an important point. You can look at every race and ship class and point out the stand-out best ship, although granted there are some grey areas. So why do we have such a variety of flown ships? Skills are a factor you cannot ignore, but some people want to fly what some would consider an inferior ship because they simply prefer it. It will be the case with these. There may have been a better tool, the SB not being it, but who cares as they wanted to use that one
Etheoma
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2011-11-11 15:42:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Etheoma
Tippia wrote:
Etheoma wrote:
this is the last time I'm going to break this down for you In the tornado you have 20 ish k EHP the others are around about the same apart from the naga now the problem with the naga is it can only use torps and only gets a 10% bonus pers level of battlecruisers for torp speed which only give you around a 30k distance now at this distance it is rather easy for people to shoot at you or burn over to you to tackle you do the rest of the fleet can kill you
…which still doesn't change the fact that no, SBs cannot provide the same heavy fire support (with the same tank backing it) as the Tier 3 BCs. It doesn't matter how much you try to “break it down” — they just can't.
Quote:
now which number is higher 550 or 450?
The ~1000 DPS a Tier 3 BC can provide. You know, since one of its uses is to provide heavy fire support to a cruiser/BC gang.


Yes but to get that dps you have to stay within a limited range which enables people to easily tackle you easily the **** your day, you do know the optimal where you will actually get all of that on at least the tornado is 2500m ish if your at your falloff your going to be doing half that and as i said if your using rails or arties that you will need for range then your going to be doing 350 to 450 dps now shhhh your starting to give me a head ache and its not a lack of understanding on my part.

the stright DPS on eve means nothing you have to think about where your going to be able to survive where you can do your max dps while doing that and with all that in mind you can begin to understand as i said that other ships in eve can do the job of the tier 3's much better.

admittedly in a situation where you are going to be able to take out all threats of the field quickly enough not to worry about 20k EHP going bye bye there is a point, but those situations are rear at best.
Etheoma
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2011-11-11 15:56:11 UTC
Potato IQ wrote:
I don’t get your rational with SB’s. Fart to close to these and they pop. The new BC’s will have a far superior tank and are, frankly, not going to be considered in the roles a SB performs as an alternative and vice versa. The new BC’s will not negate BS use for some functions, but they will perform some existing ones better, or enable some that they could not do (C1 structure bashing as a prime example)

I would add an important point. You can look at every race and ship class and point out the stand-out best ship, although granted there are some grey areas. So why do we have such a variety of flown ships? Skills are a factor you cannot ignore, but some people want to fly what some would consider an inferior ship because they simply prefer it. It will be the case with these. There may have been a better tool, the SB not being it, but who cares as they wanted to use that one


SB's are not supposed to have tank there supposed to bring your targeting range down so low that you can hit them and also seeing as you fire every 8 seconds you can just cloak every time you fire which give 3 seconds for anyone to target you but i would suggest it

as i said in an SB if you die your noob and need to talk to someone about how to use an SB there have been SB fleet that have mannaged to take out 100 battle 20 or so battle cruiser etc so basically dont comment on what you have little or no understanding of.

im sorry if im getting a little blunt but after explaining 4 times quiet comprehensibly I'm a little annoyed about the same comment popping up that comes from not understanding how to use an SB
Dr Cedric
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#25 - 2011-11-11 15:57:04 UTC
Easy answer:

Who cares. I like the way the Naga looks, I like that it is a new ship and I will use it to the best of its ability at what I do. If others want to use a SB or a HAC or a Recon or whatever...let them. You can't single-handedly say that an entire class of ships is useless just because you think one thing or another.

This is about the dumbest debate I've read on these forums, and trust me, I have WAY too much time on my hands.

You fly your SB, I'll fly my Naga and leave it at that...SHEESH!

Ced

Cedric
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#26 - 2011-11-11 15:57:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Etheoma wrote:
Yes but to get that dps you have to stay within a limited range which enables people to easily tackle you easily the **** your day,
…and that's why you have the standard support ships in your gang: ewar, logistics, and all that goodness.
Quote:
the stright DPS on eve means nothing you have to think about where your going to be able to survive where you can do your max dps while doing that
…and that is why SBs can't provide the same heavy fire support that the Tier 3 BCs can: because in order to survive and do max DPS, the SBs have to stick to different situations and different tactics than the BCs (and even when they do, their max DPS is much lower). They are not a viable choice for the role.
Etheoma
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2011-11-11 16:03:21 UTC
Dr Cedric wrote:
Easy answer:

Who cares. I like the way the Naga looks, I like that it is a new ship and I will use it to the best of its ability at what I do. If others want to use a SB or a HAC or a Recon or whatever...let them. You can't single-handedly say that an entire class of ships is useless just because you think one thing or another.

This is about the dumbest debate I've read on these forums, and trust me, I have WAY too much time on my hands.

You fly your SB, I'll fly my Naga and leave it at that...SHEESH!

Ced


Oh look wow i said it and tbh if you want to go around in the naga and get your ass handed to you thats fine, but if you want to win then don't do what your planning on doing.
Alara IonStorm
#28 - 2011-11-11 16:07:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Etheoma wrote:

this is the last time I'm going to break this down for you In the tornado you have 20 ish k EHP.

I found your problem, you forgot to fit a tank.

I seem to get with current stats.

Oracle 815 DPS at 15km IMF / 649 DPS at 45km Scorch with a tank of 45k EHP

Tornado 782 DPS Falloff 36 km RFPP / 622 DPS Falloff 54 km Barrage with a Tank of 50 EHP

1400mm Tornado 9356 Alpha 30+66 RFPP with a tank of 35k EHP

Must be fitting them wrong since they should be closer to 20k EHP... ish.

Not counting the Naga/Talos OC cause lol Hybrids and lol Naga's Grid.
Etheoma
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2011-11-11 16:23:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Etheoma
Tippia wrote:
Etheoma wrote:
Yes but to get that dps you have to stay within a limited range which enables people to easily tackle you easily the **** your day,
…and that's why you have the standard support ships in your gang: ewar, logistics, and all that goodness.

logistics wont work as well on them because they have low resists and EHP and a medium to high sig radius, Jamming yeah sure but you can be sure but people can fit and do fit ECCM or signal booster etc so it does not assure you of anything

Quote:
the stright DPS on eve means nothing you have to think about where your going to be able to survive where you can do your max dps while doing that
…and that is why SBs can't provide the same heavy fire support that the Tier 3 BCs can: because in order to survive and do max DPS, the SBs have to stick to different situations and different tactics than the BCs (and even when they do, their max DPS is much lower). They are not a viable choice for the role.


I give up you wanna use them go right ahead couldn't care less any more, its not because i think im wrong its because i have wrote like 2 pages of text, and people are still na there awesome, so ill wait till they come out and 300 of them pop up on the killboards on the first day they get on TQ.

then ill repost

and i can tell you I have never been against a ship or module in eve before the fact that i'm saying there useless is indecation that there pretty useless.

basically this patch has been CCP doing what the player want them to do and not what they want to do, so obv they are going to make a ship but by how it adds nothing to the game show's its an empty gift, but they do look awesome well the paintings of them look awesome anywhos.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#30 - 2011-11-11 16:25:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Etheoma wrote:
I give up
That seems like a reasonable thing to do seeing as how you haven't really explained how SBs could be used for the same role (viz. heavy fire support for roaming cruiser/BC gangs).
Etheoma
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2011-11-11 16:27:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Etheoma
Tippia wrote:
Etheoma wrote:
I give up
That seems like a reasonable thing to do seeing as how you haven't really explained how SBs could be used for the same role (viz. heavy fire support for roaming cruiser/BC gangs).


I was going to but I really can't be asked, would you be asked after writing as much as i have, basically for the benefit of people you don't even know, go figure it out your self i'm going to play eve.
Alara IonStorm
#32 - 2011-11-11 16:34:22 UTC
Etheoma wrote:
[quote=Tippia][quote=Etheoma]after writing as much as i have, basically for the benefit of people you don't even know, go figure it out your self i'm going to play eve.

Well we figured out that they have waaaaaaaaay more then 20k EHP.

I think we are pretty far ahead of the ridiculously low curve you have set.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#33 - 2011-11-11 16:41:03 UTC
Etheoma wrote:
I was going to but I really can't be asked
Yes you can. I'm asking you: how can SBs perform the same heavy fire support role as the Tier 3 BCs? If you can't be arsed to answer, then you shouldn't bother to chime in — “nuh-uh” isn't a sufficient argument.

The tier-3 BCs are meant to deliver battleship-level damage (or even higher, in some cases) in a small and nimble BC hull, that tanks about the same as a well-fit cruiser (to keep them balnaced). Being T1 ships, insurance also makes them lolcheap. They are gang ships, through and through, and are supposed to do one thing: deliver silly amounts of DPS while the rest of the gang keeps the target(s) occupied/locked down/disabled. In a pinch, they can also survive someone firing back, given the right support from the fleet.

SBs, by their very nature, cannot do this. While fast and agile enough, they lack the “silly amounts of DPS” part, as well as the survivability, should someone fire back. The other contending ship class is the battleship, but they are too slow and cumbersome to tag along on these kinds of fast and agile roams, so they're disqualified for that reason instead.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#34 - 2011-11-11 16:51:59 UTC
Okay constructive?

First, have you gone on SiSi and tested any of the new T3's?

Second, which Tier 2 BC's do you normally fly, in order to make a objective comparison (for example I fly drakes so have specifically focused on the merits and detractors of the Naga)

Third, what sphere of pvp is your current experience in? 0.0? Low Sec? etc?

I would ask these questions first, because while the new BC's like the Naga at first glance seem to be a poor excuse for a new ship class tier, there are some things stat-wise that these new BC's seem to do pretty well.

For one they are twice as fast (or more) than current Tier 2 BC's...

And, their Sig radius is basically 'half' of current Tier 2 BC's...

The trade off is they have half the eHP of current Tier 2 BC's...

So in the case of the Naga, for Low Sec FW engagements, I could see a potential Blaster fit AB speed tank role (just as a quick example).

For me I'm happy to see new ships, and happy to find the right fit for them and adapt, rather than allow my opponent to figure out how to use them before I do.

I think the new BC's will be a good starting point, and over time pilot inventiveness will indicate whether a future rebalance, or upgrade to the ship is needed.

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Potato IQ
Doomheim
#35 - 2011-11-11 17:04:13 UTC
Etheoma wrote:
as i said in an SB if you die your noob and need to talk to someone about how to use an SB there have been SB fleet that have mannaged to take out 100 battle 20 or so battle cruiser etc so basically dont comment on what you have little or no understanding of.


Tut tut. Blame it on my lack of understanding rather than your blinkered view that this BC will not replace the SB. Never said it would. Your title says tier 3 are useless and bang on about the SB performing better. This drivel about the 100 battle 20 will clearly always be the scenario. Utter tosh thread
dream3874
Tears of Redemption
#36 - 2011-11-11 17:12:07 UTC
Haveing tested two of the new tier 3 Oracle and Tornado I can honestly say that saying stealth bombers can fill the same roles are complete hog wash. Like one of the post above mentioned these are going to be used as heavy support in bc and cruser gangs. Im sure there will be havy tackle in these gangs to lock down targets and let these tier 3's deal the damage at a safe distance. With BS size guns 45km is more than enough space to disengage. As far as tank goes a stealt bomber can get one volleyed vs a tier 3 can take a few volleys and still be effective. From what I have fit and used on sisi on the Oracle can put up a decent tank for the intended role and still be verry effective.
Murtific
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#37 - 2011-11-11 18:41:49 UTC
Etheoma wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Etheoma wrote:
I give up
That seems like a reasonable thing to do seeing as how you haven't really explained how SBs could be used for the same role (viz. heavy fire support for roaming cruiser/BC gangs).


I was going to but I really can't be asked, would you be asked after writing as much as i have, basically for the benefit of people you don't even know, go figure it out your self i'm going to play eve.





After reading 2 pages of crap, I'm more vested about the fact that you really dont know what you're talking about and need to go back to EFT warrior Sk00l.....
Cerlin
#38 - 2011-11-11 18:42:36 UTC
I have figured it out! The OP is heavily invested in Covert ops production and is trying to convince us to stay in the market!

But Seriously, the ulitlity of the T3 Battlecruiser platform will be like what everyone else has been saying, it is a quick strike, weak, but powerful platform that can add to the quick roaming fleets. I also think it will have some use as warped in DPS for various traps/gatecamps/fleetfights. While they cannot sit on grid as easily as battleships can, they would be mean if they were warped into the middle of your fleet and started to melt your support/Dps ships. They are also a great way for PVP alliances to leverage their lower Skillpoint players into higher damage ships, especially in supercap fights or times when one is outnumbered.
Murtific
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#39 - 2011-11-11 18:54:02 UTC
Cerlin wrote:
I have figured it out! The OP is heavily invested in Covert ops production and is trying to convince us to stay in the market!

But Seriously, the ulitlity of the T3 Battlecruiser platform will be like what everyone else has been saying, it is a quick strike, weak, but powerful platform that can add to the quick roaming fleets. I also think it will have some use as warped in DPS for various traps/gatecamps/fleetfights. While they cannot sit on grid as easily as battleships can, they would be mean if they were warped into the middle of your fleet and started to melt your support/Dps ships. They are also a great way for PVP alliances to leverage their lower Skillpoint players into higher damage ships, especially in supercap fights or times when one is outnumbered.




you da man! xD

+1
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#40 - 2011-11-11 18:58:32 UTC
You're doing it wrong.

The tornado is going to be my new hurricane.