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What T3 for WornHoles

Author
Chris Pit
Faugh an Beallach
#1 - 2011-09-07 13:58:20 UTC
What T3 Is best for wormholes ??

And no i don't want a TENGU my other account uses one.

I'm thinking Legion, as i don't need to carry lots of ammo.. or is the legion underpowered. ?
penelope pitbull
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2011-09-07 14:04:41 UTC
Try to be a little more specific. For doing what in wormholes? PVE, small gang PVP, solo PVP ganking, or scanning?

There is probably no simple answer anyway, it depends a great deal on your personal preference.
Chris Pit
Faugh an Beallach
#3 - 2011-09-07 14:11:29 UTC
Mainly i will be doing PVE, but eventually i hope to do doing small Gang PVP


And C1's to start with as i want to walk before i can run.

Zakua Corbin
#4 - 2011-09-07 14:48:40 UTC
Legion will suit you just fine in C1, C2 and even solo C3's. Plenty of tank, easy 500DPS fits with sisters probes and about 340 m3 cargo. If you have POS you can swap in Heatsinks for my gank when the need arises
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#5 - 2011-09-07 18:32:25 UTC
I say legion also. About 2 weeks from flying a HAM legion, but I have seen what a laser based legion can do in a WH and its nice.

The only problem is that some WH's are either shield or armor boosters. If you only wanted to solo c1's and 2's loki might be the best bet as it can do both.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#6 - 2011-09-07 19:56:31 UTC
I lived in wh's quite a while. Did two tours of duty in them.
I was in D6 with Eve UNI and we had our first wh POS up 5 hours after Apochrypha went live. We spent over a year living in wh's.

Best advice I can advice I can give you about a solo T3 for wh sites is this: None of the Above.

If you solo a wh pocket, eventually you will die horribly. And I am not talking about the Sleepers, though in a C4 site and above your life expectancy solo is about 45 seconds.

But you are talking about C1's and such. If you find a wh and go in, it is pretty safe to assume mean people who like to shoot people WILL find it also. Not might, WILL.

And they will scan you down fast, point you, and blow you up.
A T3 fitted for solo work will cost minimum of 400M, more likely 500-600.
You have to run an awful lot of C1 sites to earn that much ISK. And that does not even include the loss of SP when you get podded in the wh pocket,

Seriously, you make far more ISK/hour running L4's than C1 wh's, with zero risk.

Now, you get in a group and run C4's/C5's, that is another story altogether.

If you are intent on running solo C1's and C2's, use a Drake.
Comy 1
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2011-09-08 01:43:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Comy 1
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

negativity


This really isn't true if you are actually aware of the situation at hand and what dangers might lurk arround the corner. I'm not gonna get into detail on all the safety messures you can take, but living in a wormhole with my alt for 1,5 years together with a friend grinding something ammong the lines of 40 billion isk each without taking a single PvE loss should count for something.

Being successful in wormholes is all about knowledge, even if there are a few rare situations you can't protect yourself from. But it requires alot of stuff to go the attackers way, like the moon being aligned with Venus while the Pope reads his Sunday paper.

To answer the OP, I would personally go with the Legion in a C1 or C2 if you don't want a Tengu (fact is the Legion might even be better here than a Tengu due to the high ammount of frigates). However if you move up to a C3, there is really no reason to not go for a 2nd Tengu character in terms off efficiency.
Comy 1
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2011-09-08 01:44:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Comy 1
double post
Lady Go Diveher
Doomheim
#9 - 2011-09-08 12:37:44 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
But you are talking about C1's and such. If you find a wh and go in, it is pretty safe to assume mean people who like to shoot people WILL find it also. Not might, WILL.

And they will scan you down fast, point you, and blow you up.
A T3 fitted for solo work will cost minimum of 400M, more likely 500-600.
You have to run an awful lot of C1 sites to earn that much ISK. And that does not even include the loss of SP when you get podded in the wh pocket,

Seriously, you make far more ISK/hour running L4's than C1 wh's, with zero risk.

Now, you get in a group and run C4's/C5's, that is another story altogether.

If you are intent on running solo C1's and C2's, use a Drake.


Risk / reward.

Yes, you will make more ISK using a Tengu. A Tengu will also cost 500m vs 50m compared to the Drake.

By the time you factor in the drake can also fly light drones to attack the frigates, and comfortably gives over a mid to a target painter, the difference in applied damage is much less than you may imagine.

C1-C2 = Drake
C3 = Nighthawk / Tengu
C4 = RR-Tengu gang
C5/C6 = Ideally, tracking boosted dreads with carriers for logistics.

As a stupidly cheap setup, try something like:


[Drake, WH drake]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Beta Reactor Control: Shield Power Relay I

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Invulnerability Field II
Photon Scattering Field II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile
[empty high slot]

Medium Core Defence Field Purger I
Medium Core Defence Field Purger I
Medium Core Defence Field Purger I


Hobgoblin II x5

Tanks 330 (yes, this is enough) and spits 460 with T1, non faction, ammo. Cap stable at 71% - and the neuts in C1/C2 sites won't disrupt that.

Tanks 430 and deals 420 if you swap a Ballistic for a second SPR ... but try it on one once you're comfortable, it stays up just fine.

Drop one or more LSEII to a meta 4 if that doesn't fit for you; needs a 1% CPU implant regardless.
Jack Tronic
borkedLabs
#10 - 2011-09-08 12:55:31 UTC
Chris Pit wrote:
Mainly i will be doing PVE, but eventually i hope to do doing small Gang PVP gank someone running sites and proclaim ELITE PVP



FTFY
Sandviched
Doomheim
#11 - 2011-09-08 17:03:37 UTC
I've been doing the odd c2 a few sites here and there in a drake..

i've made around 30 to 80 mill from each plunge into a c2 wh solo.
not lost my drake as I only checked wh's with what appeared to be no active occupants.
takes about 40 minuts too an hour to get 2 too 3 sites done and salvaged.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#12 - 2011-09-08 17:15:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Dinsdale Pirannha
Comy 1 wrote:


This really isn't true if you are actually aware of the situation at hand and what dangers might lurk arround the corner. I'm not gonna get into detail on all the safety messures you can take, but living in a wormhole with my alt for 1,5 years together with a friend grinding something ammong the lines of 40 billion isk each without taking a single PvE loss should count for something.

Being successful in wormholes is all about knowledge, even if there are a few rare situations you can't protect yourself from. But it requires alot of stuff to go the attackers way, like the moon being aligned with Venus while the Pope reads his Sunday paper.



You did not take a single PVE loss, I say again, PVE loss. Sounds like you got jumped at least once.

Solo means no one watching the wh in/out.
Solo means constantly spamming DSCAN, because you have no friendly eyes anywhere.
Solo means without local in wh's you are playing russian roulette.

So let's pretend I am Mr Evil wannabe tough guy with 2 or 3 buddies.
I jump into a wh with a covops or a cloaky Recon. Oh goodie, no one on the wh watching us come in.
All my boys cloak up.
I start warping around, first to sun. I hit DSCAN. No ships.
I warp to first outer planet beyond my original scan range.
Hey, DSCAN shows a Tengu!
Now I do a generic onboard scan, without dropping probes or breaking cloak.
I see 5 anom's that would also be in range of DSCAN. (edit, this is not accurate, probes have to be dropped, and out for 8-12 seconds)
I assume that the Tengu is not in a radar or mag sigs but at an anom,
I warp cloaked to each of the 5 anom's.
On 4th anom I find a Tengu hammering Sleeper frigs and cruisers.

I creep towards him, getting within warp disrupter range. BTW, I am flying an Arazu with a range of 48km of the disrupter.
I get as close as is comfortable, and wait until he kills all the Sleepers, so more loot for me and my buds.
I then decloak, put on scrams and damps, and wait for my buds to show up, with a Tengu about to die.

I can find a ship in a wh pocket within 5 minutes of entering a pocket, and I am nowhere near as fast as some of the top scanners/tacklers in my old crew.

So, yeah, tell the OP that he is fine going into a wh pocket solo in a T3. Are you going to reimburse him when he gets popped?
Jude Lloyd
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2011-09-08 17:48:43 UTC
If for PVE... Tengu.
If for PVP... Tengu.
If for small gang... Tengu.
If for solo... Tengu.
If for large fleets... Tengu.

I'd go with a Tengu tbh.

I'm back!

Anna Lynne Larson
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2011-09-08 17:55:15 UTC
Honestly, if you wanted a PvE ship for wormholes, you'd suck it up and get a Tengu.

Or in your case, a Drake; there is absolutely NO need to get an awesome lolblingbling t3 ship when you can get 10 Drakes that do the same job (if a little bit slower) for the same price.


And if you were lazy and wanted to use the same ship for both PvE and PvP, Loki.
chadbrochill17
Vendetta Technologies
#15 - 2011-09-08 23:05:48 UTC
Comy 1 wrote:

I can find a ship in a wh pocket within 5 minutes of entering a pocket, and I am nowhere near as fast as some of the top scanners/tacklers in my old crew.

So, yeah, tell the OP that he is fine going into a wh pocket solo in a T3. Are you going to reimburse him when he gets popped?

Even without "pro" d-scan skills, I would say well under 2 minutes to find the carebear's anomaly in a system with fewer than 10 anoms. Even if there are 20+ anoms, it never takes longer than 5 mins. If you are running mags or radars and presume that d-scan will show combat probes to warn you of impending danger, keep in mind that the aggressor(s) may have already scanned them down and don't need to drop probes to find you.

The only time you can assume you are "safe" is if you live in a c1 with a single high-sec static, which you have not activated, and when you attempt to log on, you get the message about the server needing to load system and then have to retry.

Insofar as the original question is concerned, if you are dead set against a tengu, then a legion is probably best suited to meet your stated uses.
Comy 1
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2011-09-09 00:35:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Comy 1
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


You did not take a single PVE loss, I say again, PVE loss. Sounds like you got jumped at least once.

Solo means no one watching the wh in/out.
Solo means constantly spamming DSCAN, because you have no friendly eyes anywhere.
Solo means without local in wh's you are playing russian roulette.



I say PvE because I have lost PvP ships while actively PvPing against other peoples PvP ships in wormholes. And to be honest people have tried to gank us while we ran sites, but no one succeded.

Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


So let's pretend I am Mr Evil wannabe tough guy with 2 or 3 buddies. [...]



Yes with some ammount of luck you will get in undetected if the wormhole radius is big enough and you RNG a good spawn, I will give you that.

Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


I creep towards him, getting within warp disrupter range. BTW, I am flying an Arazu with a range of 48km of the disrupter.
I get as close as is comfortable, and wait until he kills all the Sleepers, so more loot for me and my buds.
I then decloak, put on scrams and damps, and wait for my buds to show up, with a Tengu about to die.



Given that you get the lucky spawn in a large enough wormhole you still have to deal with one of two scenarios:

1) The player you jump use an afterburner fitted Tengu aligning to a celestial, safespot or POS that you will lose ground on while trying to "creep closer" while being cloaked.

2) A Tengu fitted with the intercalated nanofiber sub having insane align speed.

When decloaking your Arazu you will have 5-6 seconds recalibration time, I always assume 6 seconds since very few players skill cloaking past lvl 4, and on top of that the locking time. Unless the player have really bad overview settings or reflexes due to either not being a very experienced gamer, or being very tired after a long day the Tengu will most likely slip away.

However, should you still for some reasons manage to score a tackle, your fleet will have over a 14 AU warp to cover before being able to assisst you (assuming you don't run som sort of all cloaky gang). In this time a Tengu can cause some real nasty havoc on your Arazu that honestly isn't that sturdy of a ship. Plus the fact that your friends are most likely going to land off target. Giving the Tengu even more breathing room before the impending doom.

Now sure you can bring with you a stealth bomber to grab initial tackle until the Arazu manage to get a lock, and sure you can have the other guys in cloaky Legions/Falcons/Pilgrims to neut and jam the Tengu. And if the solo Tengu decides to be one of the "not moving" guys he is most likely toast.

But to me this is alot of IFs, and a big part of the risk factor can be avoided by simply moving smart arround the site you are running. But still it's not impossible, but so far no one ever managed to catch me grinding isk after all this time running in my Tengu, even if it might have been close one or two times.

Grind smart, and the risk of dying will really not be that big.
chadbrochill17
Vendetta Technologies
#17 - 2011-09-09 07:31:35 UTC
Comy 1 wrote:

1) The player you jump use an afterburner fitted Tengu aligning to a celestial, safespot or POS that you will lose ground on while trying to "creep closer" while being cloaked.

2) A Tengu fitted with the intercalated nanofiber sub having insane align speed.

I'd recommend safespot. Using celestial or POS is silly. An agressor just has to use the "look at" function and they can determine what you are aligned to. Then all they have to do is warp to celestial/pos, back to site, and you are now approaching them. At which point they approach you, decloak around 5-10km away, light MWD, bump you, and you die in a fire.

Comy 1 wrote:

Grind smart, and the risk of dying will really not be that big.

This is very good advice that too few people put into practice.
Brotha Umad
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2011-09-09 09:33:04 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

When decloaking your Arazu you will have 5-6 seconds recalibration time, I always assume 6 seconds since very few players skill cloaking past lvl 4, and on top of that the locking time.


No.
Xerxes Ceasar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2011-09-09 12:12:21 UTC
"What T3 for WornHoles" Sounds to me you need a new wife Lol
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#20 - 2011-09-09 13:42:30 UTC
Comy 1 wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


You did not take a single PVE loss, I say again, PVE loss. Sounds like you got jumped at least once.

Solo means no one watching the wh in/out.
Solo means constantly spamming DSCAN, because you have no friendly eyes anywhere.
Solo means without local in wh's you are playing russian roulette.



I say PvE because I have lost PvP ships while actively PvPing against other peoples PvP ships in wormholes. And to be honest people have tried to gank us while we ran sites, but no one succeded.

Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


So let's pretend I am Mr Evil wannabe tough guy with 2 or 3 buddies. [...]



Yes with some ammount of luck you will get in undetected if the wormhole radius is big enough and you RNG a good spawn, I will give you that.

Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


I creep towards him, getting within warp disrupter range. BTW, I am flying an Arazu with a range of 48km of the disrupter.
I get as close as is comfortable, and wait until he kills all the Sleepers, so more loot for me and my buds.
I then decloak, put on scrams and damps, and wait for my buds to show up, with a Tengu about to die.



Given that you get the lucky spawn in a large enough wormhole you still have to deal with one of two scenarios:

1) The player you jump use an afterburner fitted Tengu aligning to a celestial, safespot or POS that you will lose ground on while trying to "creep closer" while being cloaked.

2) A Tengu fitted with the intercalated nanofiber sub having insane align speed.

When decloaking your Arazu you will have 5-6 seconds recalibration time, I always assume 6 seconds since very few players skill cloaking past lvl 4, and on top of that the locking time. Unless the player have really bad overview settings or reflexes due to either not being a very experienced gamer, or being very tired after a long day the Tengu will most likely slip away.

However, should you still for some reasons manage to score a tackle, your fleet will have over a 14 AU warp to cover before being able to assisst you (assuming you don't run som sort of all cloaky gang). In this time a Tengu can cause some real nasty havoc on your Arazu that honestly isn't that sturdy of a ship. Plus the fact that your friends are most likely going to land off target. Giving the Tengu even more breathing room before the impending doom.

Now sure you can bring with you a stealth bomber to grab initial tackle until the Arazu manage to get a lock, and sure you can have the other guys in cloaky Legions/Falcons/Pilgrims to neut and jam the Tengu. And if the solo Tengu decides to be one of the "not moving" guys he is most likely toast.

But to me this is alot of IFs, and a big part of the risk factor can be avoided by simply moving smart arround the site you are running. But still it's not impossible, but so far no one ever managed to catch me grinding isk after all this time running in my Tengu, even if it might have been close one or two times.

Grind smart, and the risk of dying will really not be that big.


The tl;dr version of this is:

I've never been bump tackled so have no idea what this is. I also don't know a stealth bomber has no decloak delay. Additionally, I fail to see any of the various reasons how a ship can be off my scan and within 14au. I also fail to realise that the WH the other gang is sitting behind, can be any distance away. I am using my ignorance to assume invulnerability through excellence"

Basically you've never ran into anyone who knows what they're doing.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

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